On the Sociological Nature of Cults

[Netero]

Inspired by the now closed SoTG thread, I have had some thoughts in regards to the social dynamics of spiritual groups. I will refrain from naming names and specifying my own involvement with similar groups. I would like to encourage other posters to do so as well, encouraging to speak in generalities and not specifics. The thread was closed in order to avoid yet another TDB shitstorm, which is understandable, but I do find this subject matter to be important. We are not outing anyone in particular, but having a discussion in regards to social dynamics that are innate in our nature. 

 

I will start this discussion from a quote by Draja Mickaharic, who wrote his books in his late 90's/ early 100's. You can substitute the word "magic" for "mysticism".  I am copying the quote from a PDF file, so apologies for the mismatch in the font. (EDIT: changed the font, so it should be more readable)

 

Quote

The study of magic is a continual, ongoing, and thoroughly fascinating affair. In one sense, magic means different things to everyone who studies the subject, as there are always differences in what each student is able to learn, even when they are studying with the same teacher. In the beginning of the study when all of the students are in the same class, striving to master the same basic material and exercises, there is a sense of community and there is  a sense of individual uniqueness that I do not believe is matched in any other field of study.

As with many other groupings of people, some people come to the study of magic in an attempt to find a group of like­ minded people to associate with. They are looking, whether they know it or not, for a social support group, one that will give them attention and at least a minimum amount of social affection, the necessary to all humans sense of belonging. As this is precisely the kind of thing that a real magical study group must discourage to be successful, these people are often disappointed, so they turn from the group after a few months or a year's membership.

In those cases where the people do not leave of their own accord, the instructor must find some way to discourage them, driving them away as it were. Of course, this is usually accomplished in such a way that the person leaving is very sure that they escaped the clutches of the foul beast heading the group by the very skin of their teeth. Thus, it comes about that serious magical groups, those that have no interest at all in being a social support group, quickly develop a rather negative reputation.

On the other hand, those groups which provide the social Contact and support, personal attention, and the group affection, 

that their members require, as well as assuring the members that they have attained a particularly marvelous place in the universe through their membership in the group, tend to grow large and be well thought of, although they actually accomplish very little.

One of my own early teachers was disdainful of magical groups, because he said that any group with a good reputation was not worth belonging to, while any group with a bad reputation probably was either directly evil or a very serious group indeed. He further told me that since it was more than just moderately difficult to determine from the outside whether a group was either evil or just very serious about what they were doing, that it was the best policy to simply avoid them all.

Therefore, since I have been in practice in New York City, I have avoided associating myself with any of the many magical groups that are located here. On the other hand, I know of one group of ceremonial magicians who I consider not only excellent magicians, but also quite serious workers for the good of mankind. This is, however, only one of several ceremonial groups that I have learned are located in New York City. I have also heard this group being condemned for being 'snotty, exclusive , money hungry, sexually oriented, and being simply a social club.' Not being a member of the group, I cannot provide introductions, but I will say that I had been in New York City, actively looking for such occult groups for over ten years before I even heard rumors of their presence. The best occult and arcane groups do not ever advertise for, or even solicit, new members.

 

The importance of the quote is this; when people join an organization, it is not so much about the technicalities of the practice but of the universal human need of social acceptance. Just look at this forum; while it is dedicated to spiritual practice, the social, frivolous aspects is what gets the more attention.

 

Quote

When art critics get together they talk about content, style, trend and meaning, but when painters get together they talk about where you can get the best turpentine

 

Attributed to Picasso. 

 

The main point that I want to make is this. It is one thing to be a competent practitioner, but a whole different thing to be a competent teacher. And this is where I find the locust of a lot of trouble. To be a skilled practitioner requires a certain competency in a field -- to be a good teacher requires a very different form of social intelligence. But a lot of people who are respected in the area of Y tend to carry this notion that they're also competent in the areas of X and Z by virtue of their yes men and conceit.

I.e I know a great deal about cats; hence, I can train your rabid elephant and give you a good tip on the stock market. 

 

This is the problem with authorities. I listened to a radioshow on a long ride home, so I forget the names, but it was during the 1960's where ethics didn't play too much into the equation. It was a social experiment.  A sociologist, fronting as a Doctor, called in a hospital and told the nurses that their patient needed to receive a 20 ml shot of a mystery fluid. When the nurses got to the cabinet, the label of the mystery fluid said very clearly "DO NOT GIVE MORE THAN 10 ml". It was of course just water. But out of the 23 nurses this experiment went on, 22 went ahead and disregarded the label. Only 1 said no, this doesn't feel right. Who are you? 

 

Authority is an illusionary, but powerfull matter. Even without uniforms, medals, accolades and apostles, just posing as one during a phone call, using nothing but the voice will do. And the sad thing is that even a broken clock is right twice a day. Which makes fakes that much more alluring. You can be a somewhat competent practitioner and totalt shitbag of a human being at the same time. 

 

At the end of the day, the reason I'm writing all of this, is that I'm frustrated by people who say "dude, just find a teacher, you can't do this on your own". Or, alternatively, "my teacher is the best, you should like totally join our club". Nope. I've seen way too many spiritually competent people fail on the social allures of being head honcho. Which is my main point: it is one thing to be competent and another to be socially responsible. Spiritual teachings and social dynamics are two VERY different things. Proficiency in the former does not mean proficiency in the latter; this seems to be where a great deal of "teachers" fail -- to succumb to the temptation of social standing, authority and power. We've seen it before and we will see it again. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Netero

[Giles]

6 minutes ago, Netero said:

Inspired by the now closed SoTG thread, I have had some thoughts in regards to the social dynamics of spiritual groups. I will refrain from naming names and specifying my own involvement with similar groups. I would like to encourage other posters to do so as well, encouraging to speak in generalities and not specifics. The thread was closed in order to avoid yet another TDB shitstorm, which is understandable, but I do find this subject matter to be important. We are not outing anyone in particular, but having a discussion in regards to social dynamics that are innate in our nature. 

 

I will start this discussion from a quote by Draja Mickaharic, who wrote his books in his late 80's-90's/ early 100's. You can substitute the word "magic" for "mysticism".  I am copying the quote from a PDF file, so apologies for the mismatch in the font. 

 

 

The importance of the quote is this; when people join an organization, it is not so much about the technicalities of the practice but of the universal human need of social acceptance. Just look at this forum. You get things like politics. Personal opinions. Romance and infighting. Frivolous joking. The clashing of temperaments. Reassurance. Contention. Community. Us versus them. Etc. 

 

 

Attributed to Picasso. 

 

The main point that I want to make is this. It is one thing to be a competent practitioner, but a whole different thing to be a competent teacher. And this is where I find the locust of a lot of trouble. To be a skilled practitioner requires a certain competency in a field -- to be a good teacher requires a very different form of social intelligence. But a lot of people who are respected in the area of Y tend to carry this notion that they're also competent in the areas of X and Z by virtue of their yes men and conceit.

I.e I know a great deal about cats; hence, I can train your rabid elephant and give you a good tip on the stock market. 

 

This is the problem with authorities. I listened to a radioshow on a long ride home, so I forget the names, but it was during the 1960's where ethics didn't play too much into the equation. It was a social experiment.  A psychologist, fronting as a Doctor, called in a hospital and told the nurses that their patient needed to receive a 20 ml shot of a mystery fluid. When the nurses got to the cabinet, the label of the mystery fluid said very clearly "DO NOT GIVE MORE THAN 10 ml". It was of course just water. But out of the 23 nurses this experiment went on, 22 went ahead and disregarded the label. Only 1 said no, this doesn't feel right. 

 

Authority is an illusionary matter. And the sad thing is that even a broken clock is right twice a day. Which makes fakes that much more alluring. You can be a somewhat competent practitioner and totalt shitbag of a human being at the same time. 

 

At the end of the day, the reason I'm writing all of this, is that I'm frustrated by people who say "dude, just find a teacher, you can't do this on your own". Or, alternatively, "my teacher is the best, you should like totally join our club". Nope. I've seen way too many spiritually competent people fail on the social allures of being head honcho. Which is my main point: it is one thing to be competent and another to be socially responsible. Spiritual teachings and social dynamics are two VERY different things. Proficiency in the former does not mean proficiency in the latter; this seems to be where a great deal of "teachers" fail -- to succumb to the temptation of social standing, authority and power. We've seen it before and we will see it again. 

 

I'm unclear about your point but... if someone's unable to seet that SotG was a dead-end...

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, Netero said:

… when people join an organization, it is not so much about the technicalities of the practice but of the universal human need of social acceptance. …

 

I agree.

 

4 hours ago, Netero said:

… I.e I know a great deal about cats; hence, I can train your rabid elephant and give you a good tip on the stock market. …

 

Exactly. 
 

4 hours ago, Netero said:

… "teachers" ... succumb to the temptation of social standing, authority and power. We've seen it before and we will see it again. 

I agree.
 

 

[Cobie]

 

On 05/02/2023 at 9:34 PM, Netero said:

… You can substitute the word "magic" for …

 

… “I didn’t have many friends at school, I wanted to be a member of a group of people that had an aim, and I thought getting involved in that kind of thing would be comradeship. “
 

“Even though you end up being a group of people that through their own extreme views are cut off from society, you do have a sense of comradeship in that you’re a member of a group that’s being attacked by other people.”

 

(Kevin Wilshaw, well known National Front organiser in the 1980s, both a Neo-Nazi and of Jewish heritage)

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/neo-nazi-national-front-organiser-quits-movement-comes-out-as-gay-kevin-wilshaw-jewish-heritage   
 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Cobie

[Wilhelm]

20 hours ago, Netero said:

 

Excellent topic - the sociological nature of cults.  Your OP seems to focus on one or two elements of it, so I hope my thoughts were related to your key points.

20 hours ago, Netero said:

They are looking, whether they know it or not, for a social support group, one that will give them attention and at least a minimum amount of social affection, the necessary to all humans sense of belonging. As this is precisely the kind of thing that a real magical study group must discourage to

 

On the other hand, those groups which provide the social Contact and support, personal attention, and the group affection, 

that their members require, as well as assuring the members that they have attained a particularly marvelous place in the universe through their membership in the group, tend to grow large and be well thought of, although they actually accomplish very little.

Narrowing down cult behavior to spiritually-oriented groups, I think the two quotes above describe well enough the most common division between esoteric (intense, dedicated study into mystery) and exoteric (casual, social unity through fundamental principles) groups. 

 

I would agree with the author's implication that the former is way more effective at achieving the ultimate spiritual aims, but that social groups (such as Daobums, but also the public facing function any major Religion) provide a useful function for those who don't hold the ultimate goal of their system with the intensity needed to pursue those goals effectively.

 

He then finishes with highlighting secrecy as a strong indicator of a good group, which could be true - but I've never found any that were expressively secretive so couldn't comment (though there's plenty that include the ambience of mystery in their marketing).

20 hours ago, Netero said:

The main point that I want to make is this. It is one thing to be a competent practitioner, but a whole different thing to be a competent teacher. And this is where I find the locust of a lot of trouble. To be a skilled practitioner requires a certain competency in a field -- to be a good teacher requires a very different form of social intelligence. But a lot of people who are respected in the area of Y tend to carry this notion that they're also competent in the areas of X and Z by virtue of their yes men and conceit

Good point.

Quote

20 hours ago, Netero said:

At the end of the day, the reason I'm writing all of this, is that I'm frustrated by people who say "dude, just find a teacher, you can't do this on your own". Or, alternatively, "my teacher is the best, you should like totally join our club". Nope. I've seen way too many spiritually competent people fail on the social allures of being head honcho. Which is my main point: it is one thing to be competent and another to be socially responsible. Spiritual teachings and social dynamics are two VERY different things. Proficiency in the former does not mean proficiency in the latter; this seems to be where a great deal of "teachers" fail -- to succumb to the temptation of social standing, authority and power. We've seen it before and we will see it again. 

 

If I understand your main point correctly - you would see it as an improvement for people to advise beginners not just seek out teachers, but teachers with strong traits of social responsibility?

Edited February 6, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Gerard]

On 6/2/2023 at 6:34 AM, Netero said:

.Spiritual teachings and social dynamics are two VERY different things. Proficiency in the former does not mean proficiency in the latter; 

 

My personal experience with 'spiritual teachings:'

 

1. Stay away from them 

2. Stay away from religion

3. Stay "more" away from organised religion 

 

So what to do?

 

I have mentioned this so many times but here it goes again.

 

Learn and become proficient at one of the main Chinese Internal Martial Arts, namely Xingyi and Ba Gua. If you prefer something less 'aggressive' due to your Yin nature then Tai Chu will be your best bet but this art doesn't dissolve deep blockages and connect to the other internal organs like the other two.

 

The rest of the work is seated meditation work which will be taken care of by your main IMA practice. Focus on breathing and let go. There isn't much mystery to it, the rest is ego-driven fluff.

 

Find a good IMA teacher. This is a tricky part too. Look for people more interested in the combat than the 'fairies' stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

[johndoe2012]

The advice to find a teacher is due to the failure of Daoist practices that focus heavily on Nei dan and dantian stuff. 

 

Self inquiry doesn't require a teacher just lots of work on your own. 

 

I can list hundreds of things you could do without a teacher. 

[Gerard]

And let me add to the end of my advice;

 

Teachers who focus solely only on form. 

 

Well if you practice well, then it doesn't matter as you will deepen your practice on your own, it will happen NATURALLY.

 

This is in essence what makes an ideal IMA teacher (many times I provided this info in the past):

 

"Ma Gui advocated a rigorous approach to training with a heavy emphasis on developing extraordinary lower leg strength."

 

The rest of the article is on the wikipedia (Ma Gui martial artist).

 

It took me several years of figuring out why this is so important especially today for people with a professional background, who spent most of their lives studying and sitting on chairs.

 

BECAUSE WE HAVE BECOME SO UNGROUNDED that we lost touch with the EARTH ELEMENT. Constantly thinking, rising WOOD ENERGY UP and UP and UP again. A never ending cycle of up which must be corrected. So now is a constant battle of GOING DOWN, DOWN and DOWN AGAIN.

 

Forget about dantian stuff. More neo-Taoist hoopla that takes you nowhere. 

 

The real work is:

 

-Grounding

-Balancing, harmonising the Yin & Yang

-Opening meridian networks

-Loosening joints 

-Dissolving Qi blockages 

-Connecting to the internal organs

 

This enough material to work on for a couple of decades if you do well and are fully focused on this path. More time is required. if blockages lie deeper.

 

Bring me a cult any day! You'll actually ward them off. Cults only attract certain personalities and for that only you can prevent from falling prey to them. So that's probably a lesson one you'll endure and learn from in your soul journey. 

 

 

 

. 

 

 

[awaken]

Only greedy people will be attracted by cults.

 

有貪念的人才會被邪教吸引。