Jade emperor

[Chang dao ling]

Please tell me about jade emperor. I already read about him in Wikipedia.

[awaken]

Fictitious characters usually appearing in serials

 

通常出現在連續劇當中的虛擬人物

[Gerard]

Chinese mythological figure. Interesting the zodiac part (wikipedia) but it goes deeper than that and certainly there are no cats in sight (section edited by a Vietnamese national because they use the animal "cat" rather than "rabbit" in their zodiac system which is adopted from the Chinese, but other than the cat the rest of the animals are the same).

 

In any case the Chinese Zodiac is rooted in Shamanism and then passed on to Taoism; so it is indeed a very ancient knowledge.

 

The animal you manifest in this lifetime is shown in your personality and quite often in the shape of your face. We are born into the Yin (Earth) using the Yang force (Heaven) from the void (eternity, realm of the spirit).

 

 

[Chang dao ling]

4 hours ago, Gerard said:

Chinese mythological figure. Interesting the zodiac part (wikipedia) but it goes deeper than that and certainly there are no cats in sight (section edited by a Vietnamese national because they use the animal "cat" rather than "rabbit" in their zodiac system which is adopted from the Chinese, but other than the cat the rest of the animals are the same).

 

In any case the Chinese Zodiac is rooted in Shamanism and then passed on to Taoism; so it is indeed a very ancient knowledge.

 

The animal you manifest in this lifetime is shown in your personality and quite often in the shape of your face. We are born into the Yin (Earth) using the Yang force (Heaven) from the void (eternity, realm of the spirit).

 

 

I am OX

[awaken]

中國的生肖不是基於薩滿教，而是基於古埃及夏朝對於神獸的崇拜。

 

The Chinese zodiac is not based on shamanism, but on the worship of mythical beasts during the ancient Egyptian Xia Dynasty.

 

Chinese shamanism is the belief of the Qing government, which is a very modern thing, and has nothing to do with Taoism.

 

中國薩滿教是清朝政府的信仰，那已經是很近代的事情了，跟道教無關。

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by awaken

[Gerard]

Ox (thinking animals category). Hard work, strong, slow and persistent like the animal ploughing the rice fields.

 

Me? Fire Horse. Something interesting is going to happen in 2026. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Gerard

[Chang dao ling]

1 hour ago, Gerard said:

Ox (thinking animals category). Hard work, strong, slow and persistent like the animal ploughing the rice fields.

 

Me? Fire Horse. Something interesting is going to happen in 2026. 

👍

 

[ChiDragon]

On 2/8/2023 at 4:36 AM, awaken said:

Chinese shamanism is the belief of the Qing government, which is a very modern thing, and has nothing to do with Taoism.

This is not true. To the best of my knowledge, the Ching government was strongly against the practice of witchcraft.

Edited February 10, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

On 08/02/2023 at 1:36 PM, awaken said:

.. Chinese shamanism is the belief of the Qing government, which is a very modern thing …

 novel idea that 

 

“Shang Dynasty

… thought to mark the beginning of Chinese civilization: characterized by … practice of divination … “

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287814899_A_Re-Examination_of_the_Ban_on_Witchcraft_during_the_Song_Dynasty_from_the_Perspective_of_Legislature  

 

“The Shang period had two methods to enter in contact with divine ancestors:

the first is the numinous-mystical wu (巫) practice, involving dances and trances; and

the second is the method of the oracle bones ...”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_shamanism  

 

On 10/02/2023 at 9:13 AM, ChiDragon said:

This is not true. …

I agree. Witchcraft definitely predated the Qing. E.g. see  “…  the Song government … banned … the "illegal" witchcraft …” [Song predates the Qing]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287814899_A_Re-Examination_of_the_Ban_on_Witchcraft_during_the_Song_Dynasty_from_the_Perspective_of_Legislature  
 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Cobie

[awaken]

https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/萨满教

 

Few Chinese people have heard of shamanism, and there has never been any shamanism in ancient literature records. Just a few of you are talking here, and you define your own terms.

 

沒甚麼中國人聽過薩滿教，古代文獻紀載也從來沒出現過甚麼薩滿教，就你們幾個人在這裡談，自己定義自己的名詞。

 

If you say that there were witches in the Shang Dynasty, then I believe it. You said that there were shamans in the Shang Dynasty, which is impossible. There is never any record that there were shamans in the Shang Dynasty.

 

你如果說商朝有巫，那我相信。你說商朝有薩滿，這是不可能的事情。從來沒有任何紀載商朝有薩滿。

 

Since ancient times, China has focused on offering sacrifices to ancestors, which began in the Xia Dynasty. If you want to say that priests are shamans, then you have to say that ancient Egypt is the source of shamans. I think you should respect the origin of Chinese culture, and you should talk about sacrifices, not shamans. You should not make up a term yourself, and then classify other people's culture into a nondescript term, which is very rude.

 

中國自古以來就是以祭祀祖先為主，這是從夏朝就開始的。如果你要說祭祀就是薩滿，那你就得說古埃及就是薩滿的源頭。我認為你們應該尊重中國文化的源頭，應該講祭祀，而不應該講薩滿。不應該自己編造一個名詞，然後把別人的文化歸類到一個不倫不類的名詞上面，這樣很沒有禮貌。

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by awaken

[Chang dao ling]

7 minutes ago, awaken said:

https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/萨满教

 

Few Chinese people have heard of shamanism, and there has never been any shamanism in ancient literature records. Just a few of you are talking here, and you define your own terms.

 

沒甚麼中國人聽過薩滿教，古代文獻紀載也從來沒出現過甚麼薩滿教，就你們幾個人在這裡談，自己定義自己的名詞。

 

If you say that there were witches in the Shang Dynasty, then I believe it. You said that there were shamans in the Shang Dynasty, which is impossible. There is never any record that there were shamans in the Shang Dynasty.

 

你如果說商朝有巫，那我相信。你說商朝有薩滿，這是不可能的事情。從來沒有任何紀載商朝有薩滿。

 

 

I think shamanism exist from the yellow emperor 

[awaken]

There is no document record that there were shamans in the Yellow Emperor's time.
Shaman should be a product of Western culture. Otherwise, why do you like to use this term so much.

 

沒有任何文獻紀載黃帝時代有薩滿。
薩滿應該是西方文化的產物。否則你們怎麼那麼喜歡用這個名詞。

[Gerard]

7 hours ago, Chang dao ling said:

I think shamanism exist from the yellow emperor 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_shamanism

 

From the link:

 

"In China today, shamanism has a strong negative stigma and has lost much of the respect it had during ancient times.  Spirit mediums are viewed as scammers or people with mental health problems, and are rarely portrayed otherwise by the Chinese media. Along with the focus on science, modern medicine, and material culture in China (which created serious doubt in spiritual practices), shamanism is viewed as an opposition to the modern focus of science and medicine in the pursuit of modernizing China. Modern shamanism is considered as an obstacle to China’s overall modernity."

 

Pretty much the antagonising view of "awaken," who looks down and rejects shamanism.

 

Some shamanic Qigong practices: 

 

-Five Animal Play

-Big Dipper Qigong 

-Yubu (steps of Yu) by the Yellow Emperor

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yubu

 

Some Taoist medical practices rooted in shamanism:

 

-Picking Herbs

-Preparing Elixirs

-Using talismans

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Gerard

[awaken]

8 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_shamanism

 

From the link:

 

"In China today, shamanism has a strong negative stigma and has lost much of the respect it had during ancient times.  Spirit mediums are viewed as scammers or people with mental health problems, and are rarely portrayed otherwise by the Chinese media. Along with the focus on science, modern medicine, and material culture in China (which created serious doubt in spiritual practices), shamanism is viewed as an opposition to the modern focus of science and medicine in the pursuit of modernizing China. Modern shamanism is considered as an obstacle to China’s overall modernity."

 

Pretty much the antagonising view of "awaken," who looks down and rejects shamanism.

 

Some shamanic Qigong practices: 

 

-Five Animal Play

-Big Dipper Qigong 

-Yubu (steps of Yu) by the Yellow Emperor

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yubu

 

Some Taoist medical practices rooted in shamanism:

 

-Picking Herbs

-Preparing Elixirs

-Using talismans

 

 

 

I'm not hostile to shaman, but I'm puzzled that you use such a term so much. Because this term has never appeared in China. This term is coined by the West, isn’t it?
I think if you respect Chinese culture, you should use Chinese terms, such as sacrificial culture.

 

我不是對薩滿敵對，而是對於你這麼愛用這麼名詞感到不解。因為這個名詞從未出現在中國。這個名詞是西方自創的，是吧?
我覺得你如果尊重中國文化，你應該使用中國的名詞，例如祭祀文化。

 

Herbal medicine is not shaman. I have never seen the term shaman in any Chinese medicine classics.

Moreover, traditional Chinese medicine is much more effective than Western medicine. To me, Western medicine is poison and has no specific effect on curing diseases.

草藥不是薩滿，我從未在任何中醫典籍看過薩滿這個名詞。

而且中藥比西藥有效太多了，對我來說西藥就是毒藥，對於治病是沒有甚麼具體效果的。
 

Please provide concrete evidence to prove that the term shaman has been used in China since ancient times. If you can't get it out, please correct your inappropriate words.

 

請你拿出具體證據，證明中國自古以來有使用薩滿這個名詞。如果你拿不出來，請你更正你的不當用詞。

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by awaken

[damdao]

I agree that speaking about shamanism and daoism has become kind of fashionable. The subject presents a more complicated relationship than merely one originating the another.

But, what sinologist call "shaman" is not 薩滿, which is a modern term in chinese, but 巫. 

So keep it in mind when you read some informed comments about chinese "shamanism".

 

[Taoist Texts]

On 2/11/2023 at 6:51 PM, awaken said:

Shaman should be a product of Western culture.

of course it is . westerners do not understand what a shaman does and how it is different from  巫. 

子曰：「南人有言曰：『人而無恆，不可以作巫醫。』

[ChiDragon]

6 hours ago, damdao said:

"shaman" is not 薩滿

薩滿 is the Chinese pinyin of shaman. They are the same thing.

Definitions from Oxford Languages :
a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of good and evil spirits, especially among some peoples of northern Asia and North America. Typically such people enter a trance state during a ritual, and practice divination and healing.

Ref:
https://www.google.com/search?q=shaman&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS902US902&oq=shaman&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i433i512j46i433i512j0i433i512j46i131i433j46i433i512j0i512j0i433i512j0i512l2.9868j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Edited February 12, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

巫醫

巫 is a witch
巫 術 is witchcraft
巫醫 is a witch doctor.

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

薩滿 is the Chinese pinyin of shaman.

 

Exactly. 
 

薩滿 sà mǎn

The meaning of the separate characters is irrelevant, they were chosen for their sound.

 

Quote

They are the same thing.

I think so too, because I see them used interchangeably:

 

The Shang period had two methods to enter in contact with divine ancestors:

the first is the numinous-mystical wu (巫) practice, involving dances and trances; and

the second is the method of the oracle bones ...”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_shamanism   

 

The tradition of shamanism in China began in prehistoric times

“… 薩滿信仰在中國的傳統始於史前時代 …”

sà mǎn xìnyǎng zài zhōngguó de chuántǒng shǐ yú shǐqián shídài 

https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/萨满教 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course it is . westerners do not understand what a shaman does and how it is different from  巫. 

子曰：「南人有言曰：『人而無恆，不可以作巫醫。』

Yes, Confucius was a clever clogs - “All people are impermanent, so none of them can be witch doctors” [they would have cured themselves ].
 

Clearly most of the ancient Chinese had another mindset, as they did practice shamanism. 

(See post above and https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54424-jade-emperor/?do=findComment&comment=1000505 )

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… westerners do not understand what a shaman does and how it is different from  巫. 

 

In your opinion, what does a shaman do? And how is it different from 巫 ?

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

17 minutes ago, Cobie said:

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

『人而無恆，不可以作巫醫。』

 
“All people are impermanent, so none of them can be witch doctors”

Humans are not eternal, thus they cannot be witch doctors.

Note: This is nothing new, I just rephrased it.

[Cobie]

18 hours ago, awaken said:

I'm not hostile to shaman, but I'm puzzled that you use such a term so much. Because this term has never appeared in China. This term is coined by the West, isn’t it?
I think if you respect Chinese culture, you should use Chinese terms, such as sacrificial culture.

In your opinion, what is “sacrificial culture”? And how is it different from “shaman”?

~~~
https://anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap0102/china/  “… oracular activity typical of the Shang …”

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

In your opinion, what does a shaman do? And how is it different from 巫 ?

a shaman is weaker than the spirits. it is the spirits who tell him what to do. Priests/wu are stronger than the spirits. they boss the spirits around.

[Taomeow]

13 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

a shaman is weaker than the spirits. it is the spirits who tell him what to do. Priests/wu are stronger than the spirits. they boss the spirits around.

 

The word shaman -- Evenki to Russian to international -- comes from the verb ša, "to know," but interestingly enough, sounds pretty close to Chinese 沙門 -- shāmén, "Buddhist monk.”  Basically it's an umbrella term for the way "to know" and to do things with this knowledge that used to be universal.  I've studied shamanism of many traditions (Siberian -- Chuckchi, Tungus, Evenki, Buryat, Kalmyk, etc., Manchu, Mongolian, Native American, South American, Japanese, Korean, African, Bön, and of course Chinese), some in some depth.  Even within one tradition there were typically a plethora of shamans "specializing" in different things, and wu 巫 most certainly had their own specializations.  They are not a distinct and separate category from their brethren/sistren except when such distinctions arise from terminological disagreements.  All shamans do both -- they obey some spirits, they command other spirits.  They are stronger than some spirits, weaker than some other spirits.  A strong shaman in any tradition bosses spirits around, and occasionally goes to battle with them to bring them to heel.  

 

What they all had in common was service to community, often enough against their will -- that's where the spirits had the upper hand, typically they chose the shaman and it was an offer no one chosen could refuse without dire consequences.  I don't think it was different with wu.