I would like opinions on a local baguazhang instructor

[EFreethought]

Are there any bagua practitioners on the forum? I would like some opinions on a local baguazhang instructor whose website I recently came across.

 

https://baguakungfu.com/baguazhang/

https://baguakungfu.com/online-training/

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

he has some verbiage on dantian which is good. he is  gung-ho on shaolin and chen taichi which is pretty bad. All in all he is par for the course although overpriced. All you gonna learn is some external moves which is ok for starters.

[awaken]

I am not a Baguazhang instructor, but I have a Baguazhang certificate.
Evidence of learning Baguazhang thirty years ago.
But I've forgotten all about it. Only when practicing spontaneous Gong, there will be movements similar to Baguazhang.

 

我不是八卦掌教練，但是我有一張八卦掌的證書。
三十年前學過八卦掌的證據。
但是我已經忘光了。只有在練自發功的時候，會出現類似八卦掌的動作。

 

 

When practicing spontaneous gong to a certain level, movements similar to Tai Chi or Baguazhang will naturally appear.

 

練自發功到了某一個程度，就會自然出現類似太極或者八卦掌的動作。

Edited February 8, 2023 by awaken

[EFreethought]

Thanks for the info.

 

[Gerard]

Ask for a better teacher on this forum:

 

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewforum.php?f=3&sid=8a74fabedfacf0c1812fa81545f615b5

 

or else do a forum search there for any instructors in Texas.

 

That man hasn't gone deep enough on this internal style.

 

FYI, circle walking and holding the eight mother palms is what you'll ever need + Foundation work (refer to He Jing Han's YouTube channel).

 

 

Good luck!

[Gerard]

When you attend your first class if your prospective teacher doesn't walk the circle like these two Ba Gua man, walk away and find someone else:

 

https://youtu.be/KxMWIW1W8rI

 

My teacher, a Water Ox.

 

 

https://youtu.be/uWjyBSbupn8

 

I like him, holding only one palm for many circles. Simple yet effective. 

 

 

This will deeply transform you into a new human being after several years of practice proving you put dedication  and full effort into it.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Gerard

[EFreethought]

14 hours ago, Gerard said:

When you attend your first class if your prospective teacher doesn't walk the circle like these two Ba Gua man, walk away and find someone else:

 

https://youtu.be/KxMWIW1W8rI

 

My teacher, a Water Ox.

 

 

https://youtu.be/uWjyBSbupn8

 

I like him, holding only one palm for many circles. Simple yet effective. 

 

 

This will deeply transform you into a new human being after several years of practice proving you put dedication  and full effort into it.

 

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

Recently I started meditating in horse stance. It's pretty shallow, but I am not flexible enough to go too much lower. I have worked up to 28 minutes.

 

One down side is that the muscles on the inside of my thighs are getting bigger. I already had big legs, so honestly it can sometimes make getting into and out of my car a bit uncomfortable. I hope I never need to fly on a plane again.

 

 

[寒月 Hanyue]

On 08/02/2023 at 8:14 AM, EFreethought said:

Are there any bagua practitioners on the forum? I would like some opinions on a local baguazhang instructor whose website I recently came across.

 

https://baguakungfu.com/baguazhang/

https://baguakungfu.com/online-training/

 

 

 

I wouldn't bother with this teacher. Various red flags, it's expensive and something gives me the impression they might not teach very openly.

 

On 13/02/2023 at 5:16 AM, Gerard said:

When you attend your first class if your prospective teacher doesn't walk the circle like these two Ba Gua man, walk away and find someone else:

 

 

Generally I agree with Gerard regarding Bagua, but not this time. Sorry mate... Nothing wrong with the demos posted, but...

 

Not all schools of Bagua start turning/walking the circle the same way, or with the same emphasis or type of stepping. The above implies that anyone not stepping the way demonstrated is wrong, or at least not worth your time. That implication I disagree with.

 

Having learned both Cheng and Yin style approaches, and explored Ma Gui, I know which I personally got on with and found the most benefit from. It's not better or worse, or correct and incorrect. It is simply where a teacher (system) starts you off. Over time, I've become less a fan of some of the Cheng (there are variations) and Liang style approaches to the circle, but thats me.

 

Does the teacher have skill?

Do any of their students?

Do you like/enjoy the atmosphere of being around them?

 

These are the questions. Finding all three and count yourself lucky!

 

You can learn a lot from people even if you don't like them. It's just harder, and not as pleasant. You can also learn from someone with skill, even if others have not (maybe they aren't good students). Again it's harder, but at least the teacher has skill that lets you have a sense of the actual art. But can you grasp it!? If the teacher doesn't have skill, there's no point.

 

How do you know if the teacher has skill when starting out? Thats the paradox one of my old teachers would laugh about. New students (typically) simply don't know enough to discern either way. Such knowledge is sometimes learned the hard way.

[Taomeow]

I will leave opinions about his bagua performance to others, but since I'm a Chenster, I went to look at his Chen demo.  Couldn't help recognizing the guy in the demo.  It's Chen Yu, not the seller.  (Hi Chen Yu laoshi!  )  And I swear he can hold his own without the special effects superimposed on the video.   

 

I would look for a teacher who puts himself/herself in the demo of what they offer, not of someone else.   

Edited February 15, 2023 by Taomeow

[Gerard]

I see the actor Daniel Craig in the background of this video:

 

https://youtu.be/83aIPql7M_U

 

Maybe he is the mysterious Kuan Wang teacher. 

 

Other than that He Jinbao from the Xie Peiqi lineage (Yin style Ba Gua) is depicted in the video. 

 

Obviously there are several styles of this art and ways of stepping. I only provided two solid examples. good teachers are out there but it is hard to discern for a beginner; usually the fancier the method the less deep the Ba Gua passed on to you it will be. 
 

Those videos are awful, they only reveal poor skill.

 

There are phoney teachers out there like in anything else in life so the OP must take it into account, and this is a very good example.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Gerard

[Gerard]

12 hours ago, 寒月 Hanyue said:

How do you know if the teacher has skill when starting out? Thats the paradox one of my old teachers would laugh about. New students (typically) simply don't know enough to discern either way. Such knowledge is sometimes learned the hard way.

 

The key points are regardless of Ba Gua styles, lineages and teachers:

 

1. Circle walking

2. Correct body alignment

3. Correct execution of kou bu (hook step, inwards) and bai bu (swing step, outwards) stepping. Whether is mud stepping or crane is irrelevant, even though the first is definitively more Yin than the latter

4. Integrated movement: Man placed between Heaven & Earth (Taoist trinity and one of the foundations of philosophy and medicine, of which this art is renowned for)

 

The test are accessories, some people focus on combat, others on form while others on healing and fitness. Yet there is another category: the ones that have connected with the original mind, the spirit, the real US. This group is a minority and it doesn't belong to any of the above categories; it just happens when you practice the art DEEPLY. 
 

What is practising Ba Gua deeply?

 

When emphasis is placed upon:

 

1. Doing foundation work. Refer to He Jing Han's teachings (youtube channel)

2. Focusing on the Eight Mother Palms 

3. Focusing on a single Palm for extended periods of time while walking many circles before changing direction; eg. 100 circles clockwise & 100 circles anti-clockwise

4. Integrating seated meditation in practice 

5. Celibacy/regulating jing emission. Difficult when being involved in a relationship

6. Diet

7, Lifestyle. Living in busy society vs living like a hermit or a monk; that is a fully commitment to the path of integrating Body & Mind

 

 

 

 

[Sahaja]

On 2/15/2023 at 10:58 PM, Gerard said:

 

The key points are regardless of Ba Gua styles, lineages and teachers:

 

1. Circle walking

2. Correct body alignment

3. Correct execution of kou bu (hook step, inwards) and bai bu (swing step, outwards) stepping. Whether is mud stepping or crane is irrelevant, even though the first is definitively more Yin than the latter

4. Integrated movement: Man placed between Heaven & Earth (Taoist trinity and one of the foundations of philosophy and medicine, of which this art is renowned for)

 

The test are accessories, some people focus on combat, others on form while others on healing and fitness. Yet there is another category: the ones that have connected with the original mind, the spirit, the real US. This group is a minority and it doesn't belong to any of the above categories; it just happens when you practice the art DEEPLY. 
 

What is practising Ba Gua deeply?

 

When emphasis is placed upon:

 

1. Doing foundation work. Refer to He Jing Han's teachings (youtube channel)

2. Focusing on the Eight Mother Palms 

3. Focusing on a single Palm for extended periods of time while walking many circles before changing direction; eg. 100 circles clockwise & 100 circles anti-clockwise

4. Integrating seated meditation in practice 

5. Celibacy/regulating jing emission. Difficult when being involved in a relationship

6. Diet

7, Lifestyle. Living in busy society vs living like a hermit or a monk; that is a fully commitment to the path of integrating Body & Mind

 

 

 

 

What about internal energetics?  Anything you can share on this?

 

Baguazhang is usually designated as an internal martial art. In my understanding this means  the art doesn’t rely on conventional external body mechanics but rather harnesses the energetic body to move the physical body by using soong  (release of tension) to mobilize the qi through the body’s soft tissues. In other words  yi then qi then upper body movement, not yi then muscle contraction to move. For example I am learning a version of Cheng (Liu Jinru’s). In it I am attempting to do each arm and torso movement in this fairly twisty form by using release to initiate upper body movement not by conventional muscle contraction. It’s not easy but it’s pretty interesting when it works…it’s like the body is moving on its own and your job is to direct it with the shape and to keep from letting the energy uproot or twist you as it can be quite fast and strong . The  way I have learned relies on the yellow court/middle Dan tian as the central point/director of the process. The release creates a lot of internal movement and stretching of tissue deep inside which provides the connectivity/strength behind the movement. 

Using release also means you can use it in grappling to compromise the  opponents ability to apply conventional force on you when bridging (touching) similarly  to what happens in tai chi push hands/rubbing hands.  The term I’ve heard used to describe the analogous activity in bagua is rou shou or soft hands. The internal energetic engine of bagua is different than tai chi as are the applications to use it  in grappling but soong/release purportedly has a similar effect on the opponent’s body  in bagua as in tai chi. As Cheng style Baguazhang was developed by a master with wrestling skills it likely came in quite handy. Release also can be used to quickly propel strikes like the piercing palm. 

 

 
 

 

[Gerard]

7 hours ago, Sahaja said:

What about internal energetics?  Anything you can share on this?

 

1. What exactly would you like to know? Some stuff, I won't discuss online...how deep does the rabbit hole go? Unless you have gone deep enough, one won't be able to understand it. 

 

2. How long have you been practising for?

[Sahaja]

On 12/19/2024 at 10:12 PM, Gerard said:

1. What exactly would you like to know? Some stuff, I won't discuss online...how deep does the rabbit hole go? Unless you have gone deep enough, one won't be able to understand it. 

 

2. How long have you been practising for?

Was first exposed to Baguazhang and neigong about 47 years ago in the context of a broader martial arts training including the 18 weapons. . Left town for a job transferring around to a number of countries and did training on an on again off again basis over many years trying a number of teachers and bagua systems.
 

what I found was almost exclusively focused on the external features of bagua. Given that it’s called an internal art I have always been curious about what makes it internal as I don’t think the just body shapes do, it’s something else.  I am pretty sure one could practice the external shapes for many, many years and never practice it as an internal art. 
 

for past few years since I retired I have been practicing bagua in a more focused way  along side tai chi and Xing yi and after so many years am starting to touch on what I would call the internal, primarily how Jin and qi works in these arts. Seems like tai chi is more open in what this means and how to approach it than what I can see of bagua practices.   I have never heard or seen anyone really even refer to internal energetics of bagua in any meaningful way though when I look back at what my original teacher taught me I think he was on the track to get me there. 

 

i am not looking for secrets but just a framework (sort of like I wrote using qi and Jin to do the movements through release) about what makes it internal in your practice. 

 

I recall you mentioning the organ systems and I am familiar with how this model  is used in the internal mechanic framework (elements/organs - wuxing) of Xing Yi and Tai chi (and Neidan) , but not bagua Zhang. Seems like there is more of a connection to Yi Jing in the bagua I have seen. I realize bagua may go very deep, as deep or deeper than tai chi well beyond my ability to comprehend but I don’t think this is solely based on which step you use or how to use the kua or the dang. 
 

 

 

[Gerard]

Hello,

 

When you are ready to open up you'll understand the whole thing. If you are not you'll only see BGZ as either a nice form to perform or another martial art.

 

I learnt BGZ in park, learnt the Ding Shi Ba Zhang (8 Mother Palms) which is the foundation of the art and two other forms which are really irrelevant except for the Millstone Pushing Palm and Lower Piercing Palm part of the Double Change Palm routine.

 

But really rotating, change, stepping, practising in the natural environment and mindfulness + Foundation work is what delivers the goods.

 

Also Taurus, Scorpio, Leo & Aquarius are fixed signs. They are stuck in their ideas (egos) and won't change much
 

Cardinal and Mutable signs are willing and will experience change.

 

Your location makes a difference as well, East and South West directions will experience the most change due to being associated with the Wood element (movement). China and Australia are very good locations in that regard. 

[Sahaja]

Thanks. Gives me something to think about.  the ding shi is the focus for me now as it seems quite strong. Direction seems relative to me, perhaps because I am not fixed. Though where I live is notorious for change.  Earth and wood seem to be the strongest  influences in me. From your comments I detect a bit of wood in you too…haha.