Bardon and Golden Dawn

[TomBrad]

Is it possible to follow Bardon's training methods but to also use Golden Dawn rituals such as the Middle Pillar and LBRP?

[Nungali]

If you are not using some form or  similar to MP / LBPR    and doing that work , you are heading for trouble .  Especially where evocation is practised . I would also note the warnings about not having a 'clear bill of mental health'  before undertaking such as well .  'Theosophical stream'

 

The 'Theosophical stream'  was never really noted for practical instruction in magic . That is why members started leaving back then and went to G.D. or other practical magical orders . So one has to look into Bardon's  'tradition' and where he learned things .

 

For MP / LBPR  info I recommend Regardie , an accomplished  and respected magician, GD member (and virtual saviour of that tradition )  AND a psycho-analyst .

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Bardon's system and the Golden Dawn System are not mutually exclusive, particularly when you realize how dependent Bardon is on Aleister Crowley's version of it.  While Bardon calls his system Hermetic in the text, its English title adds the Hermetic to it, the original German Der Weg Zum Wahren Adepten obviously doesn't mention Hermetics at all and it is also a purely modern work which has precious little to do with the historical Hermetic tradition, but seems to be a very creative, expansion of ideas derived from reading Crowley and Alexandra David-Neel, whose works were originally published in French and Bardon could have read them in French or they may have been translated into German, a quick search did give evidence of that, but not enough to substantiate a significant number of translations at an early enough date to have been an influence on Bardon, as Crowley's books were, having been translated into translated into German by the Swiss OTO.  That said Bardon's system, is safe and practical, though hardly Hermetic in any traditional sense of the word, and it is shaped by and limited to the perspective of the magical revival of the Nineteenth Century, which threw out many "healthy babies" with the bath water because it did not understand them.

 

Back in the late sixties I was interested in and practiced together Bardon and Golden Dawn techniques, I was also interested in the qigong aspects of Taiji Chuan and its possible uses in magic, a subject I have dealt with in other posts on Dao Bums.  I eventually dropped Bardon for a qigong approach after analyzing Bardon's system, at least as it is in the first Book and deciding the qigong would be better for my purposes.

 

As for the advice about psychoanalysis, while I agree that a lot of people have gone totally bonkers by ill conceived and worse executed explorations of magic in its Golden Dawn form, there are ways that one can prevent such unfortunate results if one is actually sensible and careful, but few people who are interested in magic are either.  I can expound further on any of this if you are interested, but this is all I have time for now.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

ZYD

[Barnaby]

10 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

seems to be a very creative, expansion of ideas derived from reading

 

10 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Alexandra David-Neel,

 

I'd be very interested if you could expound on this a bit...

 

Cheers!

 

EDIT: In another thread, if it's off topic for the OP...

Edited February 11, 2023 by Barnaby

[Lairg]

Years ago the owner of an esoteric bookshop said that the sales of Golden Dawn material was quite small after about 1995.

 

My own observation is that many religious/spiritual/esoteric groups declined rapidly about then.

 

I also observe that most spiritual practices occur within the aura/energy of an overlighting being.  When such a being reaches the end of its tour of cosmic duty, the effectiveness of its practices declines rapidly - and a new group of overlighting beings expand their influence.

 

This tidal cycle may operate at all time scales.

 

 

  

Edited February 12, 2023 by Lairg

[idquest]

9 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Bardon's system and the Golden Dawn System are not mutually exclusive, particularly when you realize how dependent Bardon is on Aleister Crowley's version of it.  While Bardon calls his system Hermetic in the text, its English title adds the Hermetic to it, the original German Der Weg Zum Wahren Adepten obviously doesn't mention Hermetics at all and it is also a purely modern work which has precious little to do with the historical Hermetic tradition, but seems to be a very creative, expansion of ideas derived from reading Crowley and Alexandra David-Neel, whose works were originally published in French and Bardon could have read them in French or they may have been translated into German, a quick search did give evidence of that, but not enough to substantiate a significant number of translations at an early enough date to have been an influence on Bardon, as Crowley's books were, having been translated into translated into German by the Swiss OTO.  That said Bardon's system, is safe and practical, though hardly Hermetic in any traditional sense of the word, and it is shaped by and limited to the perspective of the magical revival of the Nineteenth Century, which threw out many "healthy babies" with the bath water because it did not understand them.

 

Back in the late sixties I was interested in and practiced together Bardon and Golden Dawn techniques, I was also interested in the qigong aspects of Taiji Chuan and its possible uses in magic, a subject I have dealt with in other posts on Dao Bums.  I eventually dropped Bardon for a qigong approach after analyzing Bardon's system, at least as it is in the first Book and deciding the qigong would be better for my purposes.

 

As for the advice about psychoanalysis, while I agree that a lot of people have gone totally bonkers by ill conceived and worse executed explorations of magic in its Golden Dawn form, there are ways that one can prevent such unfortunate results if one is actually sensible and careful, but few people who are interested in magic are either.  I can expound further on any of this if you are interested, but this is all I have time for now.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

ZYD

 

Regarding Bardon's system and qigong & taiji, have you looked at what Mark Rasmus teaches?

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

38 minutes ago, idquest said:

Regarding Bardon's system and qigong & taiji, have you looked at what Mark Rasmus teaches?

 

I had seen a topic on Rasmus' teaching a month or so ago and looked at it, and based on what I could determine from the descriptions it looks like it moved in the direction I was moving before I actually had the Golden Dawn material, which I bought in early October of 1970.  The Golden Dawn material is like a treasure casket of mysteries that as you search deeper into it, the more valuable things you discover, it makes anything that Bardon has to say seem trivial by comparison, however you do have to work at it to get to that level of understanding.  It also prepared me to understand the Daoist Ritual Tan ( 坛 ) as represented in works such as those of Saso, and that was very important to me also.  There is more to the formal structure of such systems than meets the eye at first acquaintance, and it is very well worth knowing.

 

ZYD

[idquest]

44 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

I had seen a topic on Rasmus' teaching a month or so ago and looked at it, and based on what I could determine from the descriptions it looks like it moved in the direction I was moving before I actually had the Golden Dawn material, which I bought in early October of 1970.  The Golden Dawn material is like a treasure casket of mysteries that as you search deeper into it, the more valuable things you discover, it makes anything that Bardon has to say seem trivial by comparison, however you do have to work at it to get to that level of understanding.  It also prepared me to understand the Daoist Ritual Tan ( 坛 ) as represented in works such as those of Saso, and that was very important to me also.  There is more to the formal structure of such systems than meets the eye at first acquaintance, and it is very well worth knowing.

 

ZYD

 

I"m actually quite impressed with what Rasmus teaches. here are some glimpses to his study material:

https://vimeo.com/markrasmus/vod_pages

 

As for the Golden Dawn, I've heard that there are literally several people (like fewer than 10) who actually understand the system.

[Nungali]

Well. 10 people that make a noise about it . We have no idea how many 'silent comprehenders' are out there '

 

I'd be surprised if there where 10 people that could understand just parts of the system , or individual chapters .   Like the attribution of the tarot to the cosmos  -  even on a  Golden Dawn tarot internet discussion some years back , no one seemed to know the layout and the system .  It is somewhat dated and Victorian *  but that can easily be remedied by one with a little knowledge and insight . 

The thing is the whole GD system is dated  and Victorian , so anyone that 'gets it' would need to update it as well ... that number might be a LOT less than 10  .

 

*  No cards are attributed below the equator  due to ' the lack of spirit  / spiritual development '  (cant remember the exact quote but something like that )  - a reflection of attitudes about 'superiority'   .

 

 

[Cobie]

Thought better of it. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Cobie

[Nungali]

here is a fun read :

 

[TomBrad]

On 11/02/2023 at 4:47 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Bardon's system and the Golden Dawn System are not mutually exclusive, particularly when you realize how dependent Bardon is on Aleister Crowley's version of it.  While Bardon calls his system Hermetic in the text, its English title adds the Hermetic to it, the original German Der Weg Zum Wahren Adepten obviously doesn't mention Hermetics at all and it is also a purely modern work which has precious little to do with the historical Hermetic tradition, but seems to be a very creative, expansion of ideas derived from reading Crowley and Alexandra David-Neel, whose works were originally published in French and Bardon could have read them in French or they may have been translated into German, a quick search did give evidence of that, but not enough to substantiate a significant number of translations at an early enough date to have been an influence on Bardon, as Crowley's books were, having been translated into translated into German by the Swiss OTO.  That said Bardon's system, is safe and practical, though hardly Hermetic in any traditional sense of the word, and it is shaped by and limited to the perspective of the magical revival of the Nineteenth Century, which threw out many "healthy babies" with the bath water because it did not understand them.

 

Back in the late sixties I was interested in and practiced together Bardon and Golden Dawn techniques, I was also interested in the qigong aspects of Taiji Chuan and its possible uses in magic, a subject I have dealt with in other posts on Dao Bums.  I eventually dropped Bardon for a qigong approach after analyzing Bardon's system, at least as it is in the first Book and deciding the qigong would be better for my purposes.

 

As for the advice about psychoanalysis, while I agree that a lot of people have gone totally bonkers by ill conceived and worse executed explorations of magic in its Golden Dawn form, there are ways that one can prevent such unfortunate results if one is actually sensible and careful, but few people who are interested in magic are either.  I can expound further on any of this if you are interested, but this is all I have time for now.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

ZYD

 

[TomBrad]

Thank you for your reply, I'd be very interested if you can expound further when you have the opportunity.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

18 hours ago, TomBrad said:

Thank you for your reply, I'd be very interested if you can expound further when you have the opportunity.

 

Yes, I would be happy to enlarge on these comments and in the process make clear why I chose the Golden Dawn techniques over those of Bardon and others, such as Crowley.  The first stop on that will be a discussion of a real hermetic author, Mouni Sadhu and how I learned from him what real Golden Dawn magic is about and how the founders and early adepts of the Golden Dawn thought about and practiced it.

 

ZYD

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I'm sorry to be so long getting back to this, but as I thought about how to proceed I realized that I should be ready with citations and other things to flesh this out, which required going through my computers to find the necessary resources, and then I needed to decide on the best place to start and finally decided on the following post I made on the subject of the Microcosm/Macrocosm relation since it is one of the fundamental reasons for my decision to favor the ritual techniques of the the Golden Dawn over those of Bardon:

On 11/5/2014 at 9:44 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

The notion that all one needs to know is oneself is founded on the Microcosm/Macrocosm analogy, well represented by this quote attributed to Paracelsus:

 

Quote

If I have manna in my constitution, I can attract manna from heaven. Melissa is not only in the garden, but also in the air and in heaven. Saturn is not only in the sky, but also deep in the ocean and Earth. What is Venus but the artemisia that grows in your garden, and what is iron but the planet Mars? That is to say, Venus and Artemisia are both products of the same essence, while Mars and iron are manifestations of the same cause. What is the human body but a constellation of the same powers that formed the stars in the sky? He who knows Mars knows the qualities of iron, and he who knows what iron is knows the attributes of Mars. What would become of your heart if there were no Sun in the Universe? What would be the use of your 'Vasa Spermatica* if there were no Venus? To grasp the invisible elements, to attract them by their material correspondences, to control, purify, and transmute, them by the ever-moving powers of the living spirit—this is true Alchemy." (Burgoyne, Thomas H., The Light of Egypt, H. O. Wagner, Denver, Colorado, USA, 1965, Vol. II, p. 63, I have not been able to otherwise source this quote attributed to Paracelsus)

 

In the West it became fundamental to Metaphysics and Ontology, but originated as an Epistimological theory:

Like is only known by like in Empedocles

 

because it solves a lot of problems created both by Parmenides on the one hand and the early Greek Atomists on the other.

This doctrine was worked out by Plato in a very profound way and continued to influence Western Philosophy up to Hegel.

 

It existed in China as can be seen in this quote from the Confucian, Mencius:

Quote

7A:4
萬物皆備於我矣。反身而誠、樂莫大焉。彊恕而行、求仁莫近焉。
(Mencius at The Chinese Text Project)

I prefer this translation to the one on The Chinese Text Project:

"All the ten thousand things are there in me. There is no greater joy for me than to find, on self-examination, that I am true to myself. Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence."
(D. C. Lau, Mencius, Penguin Books, 1970, p. 182, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

and was also used in Daoism.

In Plato, as becomes very clear in Plotinus, all things, including our own divine being as already there within us, it allows this type of knowledge of God:

Quote

Then, in this way know God; as having all things in Himself as thoughts, the whole Cosmos itself. If, then, thou dost not make thyself like unto God, thou canst not know Him. For like is knowable to like [alone]. Make, [then,] thyself to grow to the same stature as the Greatness which transcends all measure; leap forth from every body; transcend all Time; become Eternity; and [thus] shalt thou know God. Conceiving nothing is impossible unto thyself, think thyself deathless and able to know all,—all arts, all sciences, the way of every life. Become more lofty than all height, and lower than all depth. Collect into thyself all senses of [all] creatures,—of fire, [and] water, dry and moist. Think that thou art at the same time in every place,—in earth, in sea, in sky; not yet begotten, in the womb, young, old, [and] dead, in after-death conditions. And if thou knowest all these things at once,—times, places, doings, qualities, and quantities; thou canst know God. But if thou lockest up thy soul within thy body, and dost debase it, saying: I nothing know; I nothing can; I fear the sea; I cannot scale the sky; I know not who I was, who I shall be;—what is there [then] between [thy] God and thee? For thou canst know naught of things beautiful and good so long as thou dost love thy body and art bad. The greatest bad there is, is not to know God’s Good; but to be able to know [Good], and will, and hope, is a Straight Way, the Good’s own [Path], both leading there and easy. (Corpus Hermeticum XI, "Mind unto Hermes", p. 187-8) (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

as is found in the Corpus Hermeticum. The text which I emphasized above, "If, then, thou dost not make thyself like unto God, thou canst not know Him. For like is knowable to like", emphasizes the epistemological origin of this practice and it is only the Microcosm/Macrocosm analogy that makes it possible. This is a very Western approach approach to God as the fullness of Creation and the unifying One at its root, though the approach to the One as the one itself is also part of Western Philosophy especially in Plotinus.

I will add that the Paracelsus quote that starts the above was also important to me because in my teens I was concerned with questions of epistemology and in thinking about it had thoughts like those those have become know as "Meno's paradox", though at the time I had no idea who Meno was and as I have noted elsewhere on Dao Bums because of I started reading Plato with the Republic I was not going to learn about for more than a decade.

 

The Paracelsus quote above was to provide a good framework for my own thinking which had already inclined me to "Innatism", as an answer to the problems I was examining.

 

More soon,

 

ZYD

 

 

 

[Nungali]

... interesting to see  Burgoyne cited  above .  Not many know of 'that crowd ' ( meaning him and his contemporaries    )  and their organizations  . eg  The Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor .

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

..... also I am wondering if we can equate ... or perhaps 'originate'  ( ? ) the above concepts with the ancient Egyptian ones of 'neter'  ?

[TomBrad]

Thanks ZYD!  I've gotten copies of Mouni Sadhu's works, and will look through them after you mentioned him.  I notice he has a book on the Tarot.

[TomBrad]

On 09/02/2023 at 5:53 AM, Nungali said:

If you are not using some form or  similar to MP / LBPR    and doing that work , you are heading for trouble .  Especially where evocation is practised . I would also note the warnings about not having a 'clear bill of mental health'  before undertaking such as well .  'Theosophical stream'

 

The 'Theosophical stream'  was never really noted for practical instruction in magic . That is why members started leaving back then and went to G.D. or other practical magical orders . So one has to look into Bardon's  'tradition' and where he learned things .

 

For MP / LBPR  info I recommend Regardie , an accomplished  and respected magician, GD member (and virtual saviour of that tradition )  AND a psycho-analyst .

Thanks Nungali, I've got Israel Regardie's book on the Middle Pillar, as well as the Ciceros' Self-Initiation into the Golden Dawn Tradition.  It's very interesting to hear what influenced Bardon, I never would have guessed that some of his work derives from Crowley, for example.

Edited February 17, 2023 by TomBrad
Tidied up the grammar, removed repeated word.

[Nungali]

Well, Crowley, Levi, and the usual 'other occultists' of the time  have influenced , in some degree or other , most of the other 'occults' who made synthesis of their works combined with their own 'take and experience' in the tradition , and then made a separate ( their own) system out of that .

 

Another issue is does one want to follow the tradition and the 'classic' work and authors and then develop your own synthesis and system ,  or follow another's system that did that for themselves .  Even the 'originators'   ( )  make it clear that their system is theirs and only put down as an example and  encourage the student to develop their own  based on certain principles . Crowley in particular goes to great lengths to explain that  and even warning and laying down a potential 'curse'  * on them if the do  try to 'slavishly copy' his system and rituals .  Otherwise you will end up doing Crowley's  (or any other person's ) system, adapted for them   .... and not your own adapted for you  .

 

A classic example was the magician couple ( Zelewski's I think )   that had a series of popular books out a few decades back on Enochian and pathworking  . The eithers where full of descriptions of their own experience and considered valid for everyone ;  ' If you dont take this guardian's sword ( who looks like this and is dressed like this ) , you may not proceed .   Seems more like Dungeons and Dragons .

 

* to be haunted by 'The Demon Crowley' .       

 

One way is the path other mystic, the other the follower , for example, in religion, say Christianity , one could strive to become like Jesus by undergoing similar practices he did  ( or any other teacher , a large part centred on periods of isolation and introspection ) and become 'Christ or Buddha' like .... or one could consider 'illumination or enlightenment ' solely the teachers domain and they are  to follow instructions, codes, morals etc. and prescribed ritual .

 

- anyway, you will be getting into Mouni Sadhu ( and receiving more from Donald - they are  good sources too .

 

Do you study Tarot ?

 

[ In case the above was confusing tarot can be used as another example ; some people like to learn how to use tarot and do their own consultations - other feel that is not for them and go to a card reader instead. ]

 

 

.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Nungali

[TomBrad]

I haven't studied Tarot  but I recently got a set of cards.  I read An Occult Primer by David Conway many years ago, but didn't read further on the subject for a while afterwards.  In the 1990s remote viewing became known about, and I remembered that Conway's book referred to astral projection so I revisited the subject and found it really interesting.  Somewhere along the way I heard about Bardon, and what appealed to me was that it seems structured, balanced and that there is a progression.  It's good to have the context for that tradition however.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

On 2/16/2023 at 12:46 PM, Nungali said:

... interesting to see  Burgoyne cited  above .  Not many know of 'that crowd ' ( meaning him and his contemporaries    )  and their organizations  . eg  The Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor .

 

My brother gave me a copy of C. C. Zain's book on the Tarot for my birthday in 1966 or 67, in either case it was early enough that I was interested enough in their perspective by the Summer of '68 when I graduated from high school to spend a large amount of graduation gift money on more books by Zain and also on Burgoyne's Light of Egypt,  I also applied to join, but by the time that they got back to  me telling me that I was accepted, I had moved on to other perspectives.  I have probably been purged from the rolls since then, but for a while at least I was member of the American Successor to the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor.  There material is actually quite interesting, but their Tarot system does not align well with others that I learned about and I eventually settled on the Golden Dawn version.  I still have my old black and white Brotherhood of Light tarot deck.  It is not pretty, but eventually the they did issue a colored one that was actually very nicely done.  One of the things that distracted me from them was Mouni Sadhu's book on the Tarot to which I will be returning shortly.

 

ZYD

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I started with the post on the Microcosm/Macrocosm doctrine largely because of the influence which Mouni Sadhu's the Tarot had upon me.  While it certainly deals with the Tarot, it deals with the Tarot as a guide in symbolic form to the "Hermetic Mysteries" and analyses all of them in some detail while describing their relations and how they relate to Hermetic theory and practice in as much detail as he thought possible.  He did not believe that such things should be revealed clearly in a public form, but that such things should be the fruit of study, hard work and disciple.  So the book is not easy reading, but as I noted here:

On 4/3/2014 at 7:13 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

As for egregore's the textbook on them is:

 

Mouni Sadhu, The Tarot

 

And for me the summer 1968 was the summer of Mouni Sadhu's Tarot. I took money I got from my high school graduation and plucked down $12.50, plus tax, allowing for inflation $90.00 or more dollars of today's money. I read it three times cover to cover and many sections over and over again. Sadhu was to knock Crowley from the top of the heap, where he had been for some years, but was already tettering. The book tells you everything that you need to know about egregores. Unfortunately it is not an easy book to read or understand.

I put a lot of study and work into it.  I even used to dream about it in that period.   I consider all of the work to have been worthwhile and for reason's which I noted above:

 

On 2/14/2023 at 11:21 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

The first stop on that will be a discussion of a real hermetic author, Mouni Sadhu and how I learned from him what real Golden Dawn magic is about and how the founders and early adepts of the Golden Dawn thought about and practiced it.

 

was to prove very valuable in understanding aspects of the Golden Dawn that were not well understood by later members because as the Twentieth Century developed in English at least the field was dominated by authors who insisted on psychological and even neurological  interpretations into magic.  The approach to magic that Sadhu espoused was maintained in French in the works of Papus and other authors who names are sprinkled throughout his work.  Among other mysteries of Twentieth Century magic that are clear to a person who understands Sadhu's material is why Mrs. Macgregor-Mathers expelled Dion Fortune out of the Golden Dawn successor group, the Alpha et Omega, or a least the reason she stated, there may have been other issues in the background.  I'll talk about that shortly.

 

ZYD

[Zhongyongdaoist]

One of the difficulties with writing this is that I haven't looked seriously at Bardon, who is being critiqued, or Mouni Sadhu, whose ideas I wish to cover in a positive way, for decades, but in the case of Sadhu his material became a fundamental part of my thinking about certain things, so I can write about it easily, but I want to cite the sources in his book, The Tarot which means finding the necessary passages in the book.  Fortunately I have a good PDF copy of The Tarot and also good software for extracting the information for posting here.  I have finally been able to set that up, though it does require me to go back and forth from two computers each of which has its own idiosyncrasies that make them less than idea to work with.  One of the things that I needed to do was to review certain parts of The Tarot to make sure that I was in point of fact remembering them and interpreting them correctly, I have finished that review and yes, I am correct, however reviewing the actually writing reveals a real difficulty in that Sadhu's discussions are in the technical language of late Nineteenth Century magical theory and any direct quote would make little to no sense to anyone who was not already fluent in that technical language, and I would have to be writing long commentaries on each such quote, so I have decided that the only way for me to proceed is give my interpretation give page references to the discussion on which it is based and let people take it from there.  I will begin with recounting my reasons for favoring the ritual procedures of the Golden Dawn and Daoist qigong training to Bardon's system of training.

 

I'll start this shortly.

 

ZYD

[TomBrad]

Thanks ZYD, your thoughts on this are much appreciated and I look forward to learning more about this subject.