How to Be Spontaneous

[iinatti]

I've seen that spontaneity is a common theme for Zhuangzi. Like the guy that goes in the whirlpool/rapids and rides out to the other side.  Been trying to put this into practice and I think it's a powerful concept. Spontaneity, however, is somewhat hard to define.  It's not as if, in being spontaneous, one acts irrationally or impulsively. It's also not as if one gives up on any sort of planning or goal setting for the future.  To me its more like acting and responding in the moment without attachments, though struggling to put it into words. Perhaps that is why Zhuangzi used anecdotes.

 

Interested in others thoughts: how does one living in the modern world be spontaneous? (anecdotes welcomed 🙂)

[Lairg]

The core issue is whether the chakra spirits are traumatised.

 

A traumatised chakra spirit has behavioural patterns to reduce activation of past trauma and avoid new trauma.  Such patterns are usually somewhat limiting for the human.

 

A refined chaka spirit has discarded lower subplane substance (and the stored trauma) and is therefore primarily sensitive to life-supporting flows.

 

The human at first stage enlightenment has lifted its consciousness so that the physical, emotional and lower mental processes, having been refined, now can mostly be left as subconscious.  This frees the consciousness to engage in more cosmic processes.

 

Obviously some chakra decisions affect several planes of existence so that the human will watch those more closely. 

 

 

 

[Camellia]

I think simply being open to experiences is a good way to practice spontaneity. 

 

My personal anecdote: I was picking up a few things at Target about a week ago and passed by a woman going in the other direction. I made a u-turn and caught up to her and stopped her just to compliment her long braid. It was beautiful! Thick and healthy and shiny, and I told her so. She in turn complimented *my* braid, and we spent about ten minutes just chatting about hair.  We were joking and laughing. It was totally random and unplanned, but we had a great conversation and then we went on our way.

 

I have a lot of little spontaneous encounters like that because I make myself open to them. Like you said, it's a way of acting and responding in the moment without attachments. It also makes chores and errands a lot more interesting!

[Taomeow]

Last year I had to spend some time in the hospital and had lots of interactions with nurses.  Nurses are perhaps representatives of one of the least spontaneous professions -- in many situations it's probably for the better, but subjectively, the nearly robotic, programmed in strict accordance with instructions and regulations behavior of some of them was a bit much.  Anyway, to the anecdote:

 

one of the nurses was a Chinese male, and he somehow exuded compassion but a cheerful kind, always trying to make me laugh, occasionally succeeding.  I felt safe to complain to him -- about everything -- because I quickly learned that he won't respond with meaningless platitudes or impersonal "professional" indifference, he'll come up with something better.  So, at one point I complained, among other things, about the hospital socks, the only thing one was allowed to wear on one's feet.  "Such lousy cheap material, so uncomfortable and above all so ugly, look at this color!  What have I done to deserve these gloomy, drab, unimaginative socks?.."  I was kidding of course, those socks were the least of my problems.  But after the nurse left the room, some ten minutes later he came back beaming with joy.  "I had to go to another floor to look for them, on ours we don't have this kind, but I was sure I saw them somewhere at some point, and I was right!  Here you go!"  And he handed me two pairs of neon yellow socks, bright as the sun.  

 

Made my day.

 

So, when in doubt, go with the kind of spontaneity that has a chance to make someone's day.        

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, iinatti said:

I've seen that spontaneity is a common theme for Zhuangzi. Like the guy that goes in the whirlpool/rapids and rides out to the other side.  Been trying to put this into practice and I think it's a powerful concept. Spontaneity, however, is somewhat hard to define.  It's not as if, in being spontaneous, one acts irrationally or impulsively. It's also not as if one gives up on any sort of planning or goal setting for the future.  To me its more like acting and responding in the moment without attachments, though struggling to put it into words. Perhaps that is why Zhuangzi used anecdotes.

 

Interested in others thoughts: how does one living in the modern world be spontaneous? (anecdotes welcomed 🙂)

 

I did it by getting out of  the modern world as much as I felt comfortable to do    .

 

Well, not so much the modern world  but its crowds and clutter . Also organisation was needed to set up the essentials of life .  Its easier  to be spontaneous about each day when you dont have to go to work .  The best solution might be to be resigned with the the overall sameness of  the modern life style by being spontaneous in your reactions and actions within that world and its dynamics  (sorta like what Taomeow's nurse did above ) .

 

But then , I have my favourable, habitual , 'spontaneity'  now , which might not be spontaneous any more ?

 

So  sometimes I throw caution to the wind and habit and comfort . Then , even I dont know what I am about to do or what will come out of it .     Its hard to do,  and even  harder to do  when you are not set up for that .

 

Eg. Once ,  I went ' totally  sponto '  - determined  to make a day of it .  I ended up in town by the river . I saw a  woman there in a campervan, said a few words to her then ... spontaneously  " You are on the run, aren't you ?  "  She was . I  told her  to come and stay at my place , to  follow me .  Okay, this is getting weird , what have I done . "  Later , I got her story , domestic abuse , crazy partner , her house but he will not go ,  two days ago she is hiding under the house looking out , seeing him stalking around with a shotgun, looking for her .   It goes on ... she was an absolute psychological mess . She didnt even know why she went off with a stranger ( me ) .  We where driving around our property in my car, next thing she is crouched down on the front passenger  floor  !  I asked why , it was becasue she saw a person in the distance .

 

After some talks I realised I might actually be able to get through to her , she began improving . She was great actually , set up her van in front field , worked like a beaver ( I came home once in poring rain and she was in wet weather gear , weeding the garden ). She even improved enough to go over to our amenities block by herself  for a hot shower .  She comes back describing a man she met there .... "Oh him , the little meek guy that thinks he is a hobbit or something  ? ... He's okay, a bit useless but harmless . "   She actually talked to a stranger . next thing he is inviting her to dinner  ....  then dating ... then .......

 

Hey !   ..... 'my gardener ' !  

 

Then she decides she has to go back and get her house back , so off she goes . Then Mr . Meek hobbit goes after her !  ...  fronts the mad biker guy  ; " She's MY woman now ! " , somehow he chases him off , then they come back here and decide to get married !  She gets a new guy / life , and he gets his first partner in 30 years  and a wife with a house .

 

 And I got  ....     .....  no more gardener  ?

 

I went to their wedding ,  just after the   ceremony she makes a little speech ;  " What a surprise, eh?  Who would have ought , lest of all me .  This all started when I met   that guy ( points at me )  down at the river ......   " 

 

- one never knows what may eventuate when you  'let angels guide your feet' . 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:30 PM, iinatti said:

I've seen that spontaneity is a common theme for Zhuangzi.

To my understanding. According to Zhuangzi, spontaneity is something acted out naturally without intent. For example, if I saw a fire burning a house down, I would go look for a water hose to put out the fire or call the fire department. It was a 'spontaneous' act that does not require any prior thinking or planning. Another example is if a lifeguard saw someone drowning in the water, s/he would spontaneously find a way to get to the water to save that person. Again, it was a spontaneous act by natural instinct. Indeed, this is what the theme of Zhuangzi is all about.

[iinatti]

Thanks for these. 

 

My thinking is that making plans and goals is a necessary thing--a plan or goal can be made with the same spontaneity as any action.   Although, one ought not be attached to the path to achieve the goal, nor fret the details on how you might get there, if at all.  Just let the nature take its course.    

 

I wake up one morning and decide to go hiking in the backcountry.  I get my stuff ready and head out the door.  I am not wandering aimlessly: there is a particular lake I am hoping to reach.  I have a route planned and provisions, although I don't know all of the obstacles I might encounter on my path.  Its spring and I come to a stream I must cross.  The water is much higher and too turbulent to cross safely.  I do not stick to my planned crossing point.  I'd surely be washed away.  I traverse the stream, find a narrow point and use a fallen log to cross.  I continue on my journey.    

 

10 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

spontaneous act by natural instinct

 

What if your natural instinct is to do something harmful?  Acting spontaneously will quickly reveal your true nature.    

 

[ChiDragon]

26 minutes ago, iinatti said:

What if your natural instinct is to do something harmful? 

 

I would be considered it was an accident. A spontaneous act to rescue a person might cause harm to both parties. There is no guarantee that the rescue will be succesfull.

[iinatti]

9 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I would be considered it was an accident

 

What if it was intentional harm?  Say someone parks their car too closely to mine.  If my natural instinct is to key their car, that would reveal something about my nature.  Alternatively, if I brush it off and move my car, that would reveal something else.  If one's nature is kind and compassionate that will be borne out by their spontaneous action.  If they are not kind and compassionate, for example, they might let their neighbors house burn to the ground... or worse yet, maybe they started the fire to begin with.

 

Thinking that maybe acting spontaneously is a pathway to cultivating one's authentic nature...  Once the mask is removed, one will quickly see what type of person they really are, for better or worse.        

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, iinatti said:

What if it was intentional harm? 

Anything that was intentional is not spontaneous. Something cause you to react to harm with malice is not part of the philosophy of Zhuangzi.

[Indiken]

Spontaneous is based on intention.

At first people will be spontaneous because they cannot be unspontaneous,

Later people will be spontaneous because there will be no need to be unspontaneous.

[iinatti]

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Anything that was intentional is not spontaneous. Something cause you to react to harm with malice is not part of the philosophy of Zhuangzi.

 

100% agreed. Not suggesting someone should act in such a way nor that acting in such a way is consistent with Zhuangzi. Apologies if it came off that way.  I was responding to your initial point that one act based "natural instinct."  That seems correct to me, although does not seem like everyone's natural instincts are so pure.  If acting spontaneously leads to undesirable outcomes due to a non-virtuous natural instinct, however, you will quickly see the need to change yourself and become a better person.  Acting spontaneously and exposing these things about yourself, however mundane, will therefore help you to become a more virtuous person who does act consistent with the philosophy of Zhuangzi.  This may be incorrect, but it was at least the somewhat convoluted thought that I had after reading your initial post although not meaning too much by it.  Very much appreciated the insight. 
             

[iinatti]

5 hours ago, Indiken said:

Spontaneous is based on intention.

 

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Anything that was intentional is not spontaneous

 

What is an "intention" then anyway? Is the goal of spontaneity to eliminate all intentions?  i.e. I intend to have no intentions. 

[Indiken]

53 minutes ago, iinatti said:

What is an "intention" then anyway?

A plan what to do based on certain circumstances.

53 minutes ago, iinatti said:

Is the goal of spontaneity to eliminate all intentions? 

I do not know.

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, iinatti said:

 

 

What is an "intention" then anyway? Is the goal of spontaneity to eliminate all intentions?  i.e. I intend to have no intentions. 

Scenario 1:
Here, you are driving along the road at high speed. You saw a person walking in front of your car. Sorry, you didn't stop and ran over the person.

Scenario 2:
Here, you are driving along the road at high speed. You saw a person walking in front of your car. All the sudden, you turned the steering wheel to avoid hitting the person.

Analysis
In scenario 1:
You had an intention to commit hit and run. It is because you did not do anything drastically to avoid the accident. Your action was constant driving toward the person, it cannot be said that you are spontaneously want to run over the person. Thus this is intentional.

In scenario 2:
You had spontaneously, without thinking, turning the steering wheel away from hitting the person. Here, you had made a sudden change in the course of driving to prevent an accident. Thus this is spontaneous.

Edited February 10, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, iinatti said:

Is the goal of spontaneity to eliminate all intentions? 

 

No, the goal of spontaneity is not to eliminate all intentions. However, in our case of interest, spontaneity just has more weight over intention. An spontaneous act might have a hidden intention to avoid an accident. However, the spontaneity just came before the intention. One cannot forsee an accident ahead to commit a spontaneous act. One will only see the hidden intent afterwards.

[doc benway]

In the dzogchen tradition, the spiritual path is considered in terms of view, meditation, conduct, and fruition. I find this the most direct and practical approach  to experience and practice wu wei. One rests the attention on the present moment. fully connected outside and in…. in an attitude of ting 

 

The view is open awareness without distraction or fabrication. Meditation is simply to remain in and return to the view continuously. Conduct becomes spontaneous, arising without effort or intention from the openness of the view and the inherent energy of immediate presence. Fruition is the expression of the view in manifest forms in all aspects of life - creativity, resourcefulness, awareness, stability, discernment, and so on.

[Lairg]

The objective of spontaneity seems to be that the human cooperates effectively with the flow of divine light/intent

 

I still carry some trauma from this and previous lives that distorts my thinking, feeling and actions - to avoid situations that might cause similar trauma.

 

I also contain internal intelligences that are not properly refined and therefore repeat out-moded actions.  For example if I have been looking for a particular item at a reasonable quality and price, I tend to continue to buy beyond my current needs.  Thus the habit has been engrained and now needs to be released.

 

There is much to be done to become spontaneous in a pure sense

 

 

[ChiDragon]

10 hours ago, iinatti said:

Acting spontaneously and exposing these things about yourself, however mundane, will therefore help you to become a more virtuous person who does act consistent with the philosophy of Zhuangzi.  This may be incorrect, but it was at least the somewhat convoluted thought that I had after reading your initial post although not meaning too much by it.

 

You are right. This is only to convey the thought of spontaneous which it is not the philosophy of Zhuangzi. Zhuangzi does not concern who will be a virtuous person or not. He just want things to be happened in a  spontaneous natural way.

[iinatti]

On 2/11/2023 at 5:30 AM, steve said:

Conduct becomes spontaneous, arising without effort or intention from the openness of the view and the inherent energy of immediate presence.

 

Thanks!  I find this an interesting thing to think about, but as Steve says, perhaps spontaneity is the byproduct of practice, not necessarily the objective.

 

This conversation did elicit an interesting thought in me, however.  An intention is just a thought--a concept about something you might do in the future.  It is no different than any other thought that might arise in consciousness.  In my own practice, I am working on avoiding attachments to things, including such thoughts.  This is a challenge, and until thinking through this conversation, I have yet to understand why.  

 

Concepts like prajnaparamita and wu wei are a paradox because one cannot eliminate attachments phenomenon by attaching to a phenomenon.  One cannot commit to inaction, without acting.   One cannot eliminate thoughts by thinking. One cannot intend to act without intentions.   These are infinite loop statements, the type that Gödel devised. 

 

There is a subtle workaround, however.  If analyzing such an unsolvable statement in a model, they would be avoided altogether by running an iteration and finding a limit. A similar concept can also be applied in practice.  One cannot eliminate thoughts by thinking, although one can iteratively reduce or slow thoughts by thinking.  One can intend to act less on intentions.  One can commit to inaction by acting less.  One can reduce attachment to phenomenon while still attaching to the phenomenon of doing so.  Might seem like a small distinction, but its a slight change in thinking for me.     

 

Thus, if practicing a meditation and my thoughts are running wild, I do not say to myself "stop thinking,"  I say to myself "slow down your thinking"  That way I can gradually get infinitely close a non thinking state without forcing myself into a paradox.  

 

So, one cannot intend to act spontaneously.  One can only intend to be more spontaneous and gradually the spontaneity will take over.        

[Lairg]

Being spontaneous is natural for the refined entity that is in the cosmic flow.

 

On the other hand, some refined humans work to alter the cosmic flow, at least locally.  Their spontaneity is constrained so as to propagate their intent.

 

Gardeners are a relatively trivial example

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Lairg

[Nungali]

On 2/10/2023 at 8:56 AM, ChiDragon said:

To my understanding. According to Zhuangzi, spontaneity is something acted out naturally without intent. For example, if I saw a fire burning a house down, I would go look for a water hose to put out the fire or call the fire department. It was a 'spontaneous' act that does not require any prior thinking or planning. Another example is if a lifeguard saw someone drowning in the water, s/he would spontaneously find a way to get to the water to save that person. Again, it was a spontaneous act by natural instinct. Indeed, this is what the theme of Zhuangzi is all about.

 

 

,,,

Edited February 13, 2023 by Nungali

[ChiDragon]

Anyway, spontaneous or spontaneity is not the right translation for ziran(自然). It should be 'natural' or "let nature take its course."  Using the wrong definition will lead people off course. Like what is happening here. I can't even stay on track myself. It just doesn't work.

 

PS corrected 'ziren' to 'ziran'.

Edited February 13, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Spontaneity is something that happen on its own. It was not meant to be controlled or learn how to do it. It has to be acted out naturally with no intent.

[Mig]

On 2/13/2023 at 1:23 PM, ChiDragon said:

Spontaneity is something that happen on its own. It was not meant to be controlled or learn how to do it. It has to be acted out naturally with no intent.

What about your own reflexes? How does it happen on its own? What examples can you give if it is not meant to be controlled?

It seems that spontaneous acts need to defined with examples. For example if I am in the middle of something and I start drawing out of the blue something all new and impressive, I would say I did it spontaneously. How would you say that in Chinese?