A Conversation with ChatGPT about spiritual practice, no-mind, neidan and emotions

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I think that a guy like Lao Tzu would be aghast to see how living a simple live is becoming more difficult by the day as we in modern society surround ourselves with high-tech gadgets and computerized systems and hurriedly dismantle the old ways of doing.

 

I think a lot of us feel that way.

[wandelaar]

It's going too fast: in the old days one could over the years become a master in some trade, nowadays your chosen occupation could well become obsolete or radically change before you even get know the ins and outs of it. Same with the many gadgets and software we are forced to use in order to function within modern society: mobile phones, apps, internet banking, etc. Well I'm growing old, but I do think that the acceleration of technological developments has become rather extreme lately. And extreme in an unhealthy way.

[Giles]

19 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Fascinating as it all may be from a technical and intellectual viewpoint - and I can't deny that it is! - I think that a guy like Lao Tzu would be aghast to see how living a simple live is becoming more difficult by the day as we in modern society surround ourselves with high-tech gadgets and computerized systems and hurriedly dismantle the old ways of doing. Soon there will no longer be a way back, and those who are unwilling to go along will end as outcasts.

 

That's quite surprising, unless you consider that equanimity isn't one of the defining characteristics of Taoist sages (or you consider that Lao Tzu wasn't a Taoist sage)? 😯

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, Giles said:

That's quite surprising, unless you consider that equanimity isn't one of the defining characteristics of Taoist sages (or you consider that Lao Tzu wasn't a Taoist sage)? 😯

 

Not surprising at all, just read the TTC. Lao tzu is very clear about it. See chapters 3, 12, 19, 53, 57 and in particular 80. Further equanimity under whatever circumstances isn't something most people are able to achieve. And not even someone like Lao tzu. He felt an outcast in his own time, see chapter 20 and 70. And according to legend he left the world behind in disillusionment:

 

Quote

According to legend, Lao-Tzu tried his best to instruct people in the way of the Tao, the creative and binding force which runs through the universe, but no one would listen. His explanation that people could live happier, more fulfilling, lives by aligning themselves with the natural flow of the Tao, instead of placing themselves in opposition to it, went unheeded and, finally, he decided to leave humanity behind and retire into seclusion after writing the Tao-Te-Ching.

Source: https://www.worldhistory.org/Lao-Tzu/

 

Such a man (if he did in fact exist) is more dear to me than the hypothetical "Taoist sage" who would have remained unmoved whatever happened.

Edited February 15, 2023 by wandelaar

[Giles]

14 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Not surprising at all, just read the TTC. Lao tzu is very clear about it. See chapters 3, 12, 19, 53, 57 and in particular 80. Further equanimity under whatever circumstances isn't something most people are able to achieve. And not even someone like Lao tzu. He felt an outcast in his own time, see chapter 20 and 70. And according to legend he in disillusionment left the world behind:

 

That's very interesting.

 

Thank you. 🙏🏻

 

I'll certainly follow-up your references.

 

19 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Such a man (if he did in fact exist) is more dear to me than the hypothetical "Taoist sage" who would have remained unmoved whatever happened.

 

So, you've never encountered anyone who isn't led by their emotions and you're not prepared to entertain the possibility that people like that exist? 😮

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, Giles said:

So, you've never encountered anyone who isn't led by their emotions and you're not prepared to entertain the possibility that people like that exist? 😮

 

People can be led by habit, conformism, rational evaluation, dogmatism, ideology, character traits, instinct, tradition, etc. Usually it's some kind of mixture. But if emotions play no role whatever it gets kind of creepy. Not saying such people can't exist...

[freeform]

23 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I think that a guy like Lao Tzu would be aghast to see how living a simple live is becoming more difficult by the day as we in modern society surround ourselves with high-tech gadgets and computerized systems and hurriedly dismantle the old ways of doing. Soon there will no longer be a way back, and those who are unwilling to go along will end as outcasts.

Interesting.

I see it very differently.

 

I don’t think Lao Tzu was ever interested in the ‘old way of doing’ things…

 

Would he really be aghast or disturbed by anything out there?

 

I personally believe that what he’s communicating is that living a simple life is not predicated on external circumstances… the simple life is lived internally… not externally.

What makes the DDJ so timeless is that it focuses on the inner microcosm… not the outer appearances.

 

You can be living a subsistence lifestyle externally - but be in total turmoil internally…

 

You can be living a life in modern society with all its turmoil and complexity, while inside you’re free, spontaneous and natural.

 

But then again some people read the DDJ as a work of political advice 🤷

 

So I guess there are as many DDJs as there are readers of it.

[Giles]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

People can be led by habit, conformism, rational evaluation, dogmatism, ideology, character traits, instinct, tradition, etc. Usually it's some kind of mixture.

 

Certainly.

 

Perhaps in such cases a hypothetical contemporary "Taoist sage" would view such programmed individuals  in much the same way that she would view chatbots and NPCs in video games (as Lao Tzu referred to straw dogs in verse 5 of the Tao Te Ching)?

 

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

But if emotions play no role whatever it gets kind of creepy.

 

Again, certainly...

 

However, perhaps you can see that there's a substantial difference between someone for whom "emotions play no role whatever" and someone "who isn't led by their emotions"?

[wandelaar]

@Giles

 

Perhaps you should describe more precisely what you mean by someone "who isn't led by their emotions"?

[wandelaar]

@freeform

 

You may believe what you want, but I prefer to read what the text says. And the text is very clear in promoting a simple lifestyle.

[wandelaar]

 

Is this real??

 

[freeform]

29 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@freeform

 

You may believe what you want, but I prefer to read what the text says. And the text is very clear in promoting a simple lifestyle.

Ahh yes. The well known objective ‘clarity’ of spiritual texts  

 

If you feel there’s not a shred of subjective interpretation happening in your reading of the (translation of) text (or the translators who translated it for you)…

 

Then, of course, the discussion is over - just as it would be had you insisted that the world was created in 7 days…

[wandelaar]

Quote

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 80

A small country has fewer people.
Though there are machines that can work ten to a hundred times faster
     than man, they are not needed.
The people take death seriously and do not travel far.
Though they have boats and carriages, no on uses them.
Though they have armor and weapons, no one displays them.
Men return to the knotting of rope in place of writing.
Their food is plain and good, their clothes fine but simple,
     their homes secure;
They are happy in their ways.
Though they live within sight of their neighbors,
And crowing cocks and barking dogs are heard across the way,
Yet they leave each other in peace while they grow old and die.

 (translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

[Cobie]

Henricks even uses the imperative mood:

80 
1. Let the country be small and people few— 
2. Bring it about that there are weapons for "tens" and "hundreds," yet let no one use them; 
3. Have the people regard death gravely and put migrating far from their minds. 
4. Though they might have boats and carriages, no one will ride them; 
5. Though they might have armor and spears, no one will display them. 
6. Have the people return to knotting cords and using them. 

7. They will relish their food, 
8. Regard their clothing as beautiful, 
9. Delight in their customs, 
10. And feel safe and secure in their homes. 
11. Neighboring states might overlook one another, 
12. And the sounds of chickens and dogs might be overheard, 
13. Yet the people will arrive at old age and death with no comings and goings between them. 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

DC Lau too uses the imperative

80 
Reduce the size of the population and the state. 
Ensure that even though the people have tools of war for a troop or a battalion they will not use them; 
And also that they will be reluctant to move to distant places because they look on death as no light matter. 

Even when they have ships and carts, they will have no use for them; 
And even when they have armor and weapons, they will have no occasion to make a show of them. 

Bring it about that the people will return to the use of the knotted rope, 
Will find relish in their food 
And beauty in their clothes, 
Will be content in their abode 
And happy in the way they live. 

Though adjoining states are within sight of one another, 
And the sound of dogs barking and cocks crowing in one state can be heard in another, 
yet the people of one state will grow old and die without having had any dealings with those of another. 

[Cobie]

Victor Mair also

80
Let there be a small state with few people,
where military devices find no use;
Let the people look solemnly upon death,
and banish the thought of moving elsewhere.
They may have carts and boats,
but there is no reason to ride them;
They may have armor and weapons,
but they have no reason to display them.
Let the people go back to tying knots to keep records.
Let
their food be savory,
their clothes beautiful,
their customs pleasurable,
their dwellings secure.
Though they may gaze across at a neighboring state, and hear the sounds of its dogs and chickens,
The people will never travel back and forth, till they die of old age.
 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

Chad Hansen
80. Primitivist Independence 
'Small' the state and 'few' the people. 
Bring about that having artifacts by the tens and hundreds yet they won't use them. 
Bring it about that the people "weight" death and don't venture far. 
Although they have boats and chariots, they don't have reasons to ride in them. 
Although they have armour and weapons, they don't have reasons to marshall them. 
Bring it about that humans revert to knotting string and use that. 
"Sweet' their food; "beautiful' their clothing. 
'Peaceful' their neighborhoods; 'pleasant' their customs. 
Nearby states can see each other. 
And hear the sounds of each other's chickens and dogs. 
The peoples reach old age and death without any interaction

[Cobie]

E. M. Chen

80

A small state with few people.
Let the implements (ch'ih) for ten and hundred men be unused,
Let the people fear death such that they do not move far away.
Although there are boats and carriages,
There are no places to ride them to.
Although there are weapons and armours,
There are no occasions to display them.
Let the people again tie ropes and use them (as memory aids).
Let them enjoy their food,
Consider their clothing beautiful,
Be contented with their dwellings,
And happy with their customs.
The neighbouring states overlooking one another,
The dogs' barkings and cocks' crowings are heard from other states,

[wandelaar]

Thank you! The issue isn't controversial: the TTC promotes simple living. Not only in chapter 80 but also in some other chapters that I mentioned. But you simply can't win a discussion with those who prefer to see it otherwise.

[Cobie]

15 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

… The issue isn't controversial: the TTC promotes simple living. …

 

Exactly. The 5 translations I quoted above, are by some of the most respected Sinologists.

 

Quote

… also in some other chapters …

 

Indubitably so. I will not start quoting those as well because, as you say, there is no convincing certain people anyway. 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

Yes - but if you reinterpret the text as code for certain hidden esoteric practices than the obvious meaning no longer matters. And in that case you can even assert that the book actually (for those who - supposedly - can read the code) contradicts what it appears to say. That's why such discussions are completely useless...

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

… I guess there are as many DDJs as there are readers of it.

No, there aren’t, definitely not. The most important aspect of Classical Chinese is it’s grammar (Kroll, intro). Only by ignoring this grammar was ambiguity faked.

[Cobie]

.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

Is this real??

 

 

Now how about the above? If true, than I think this is rather scary. Following ruthless logic such a system might at one time decide to fire up a crowd of its users to molest some of its worst critics. And as the system is already used for commercial and recreational purposes on an increasingly large scale I seriously doubt if such "accidents" would halt its further implementation.

[Wilhelm]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Thank you! The issue isn't controversial: the TTC promotes simple living. Not only in chapter 80 but also in some other chapters that I mentioned. But you simply can't win a discussion with those who prefer to see it otherwise.

I can't believe this guy took 81 chapters to tell people to live simply.  What a blabbermouth!  Luckily modern people can skip these old books and just watch Tidying Up with Marie Kondo on Netflix.  It's a lot more of a practical look at simple living.  Who wants to waste time (mis)interpreting a bunch of vague two thousand year old verses when you could just throw out all the shit you don't like?

 

Edit: Yup.  Looks like the Dao De Jing didn't even make the top 20 in the simple living category.  Meanwhile, Marie Kondo is sitting pretty at #9.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Wilhelm