Buddhist meditations for extinguishing the self

[Tom Beckett]

From what I have heard from many , Buddhist meditations are primarily directed at separating or extinguishing the self. What are these meditations and how do they work? 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Tom Beckett

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, Tom Beckett said:

From what I have heard from many , Buddhist meditations are primarily directed at separating or extinguishing the self. What are these meditations and how do they work? 

 

There's not a specific meditation for this but Buddhist meditation in general can see through the false self that we create. 

[ChiDragon]

Buddhism Meditation is only a Chan or Zen method, the result is really depends on the individual's wisdom and intelligence seeking what one to be accomplished. Things have to be sorted out in deep thoughts and become elucidated. Once the pure thought is isolated from all other misleading falsehood,  it can be said that individual has been enlightened or awaken.

 

禪坐取决于个人的智慧和聰慧，去寻求完成什么？事情必须在深刻的思想中进行整理，并得到阐明。 一旦纯粹的思想与所有其他误导性的谎言隔离开来，就可以说个人已经开悟或觉醒了

Edited February 20, 2023 by ChiDragon

[stirling]

Buddhism has many possible techniques beyond just the "Open Awareness" approach of Zen, Chan, or Dzogchen.

 

Buddhist meditation techniques have a variety of purposes, but most are intended to help chip away at delusions that "self" (as you imagine it) has any reality. It isn't that the self is separated or extinguished, just seen through. This is something akin to realizing that Santa Claus isn't real in the way that most Western children imagine him to be.

 

Zen, Chan, and Dzogchen meditation is about learning to recognize the underlying awareness that is always present. Once recognized it can be rested in, and brought increasingly into day to day life. Insight is the moment of enlightenment - not a thought but a non-conceptual, non-verbal permanent realization of the non-dual nature of how reality truly is. This is realization of the true "nature of mind". 

 

I won't speak for the Theravada traditions, but here is a great open awareness meditation instruction with some explanation from the Tibetan Mahamudra tradition. 

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/how-to-meditate-dzogchen-ponlop-rinpoche-on-mahamudra/

 

It is worth seeking out a teacher who can give you an introduction to the nature of mind if there is real curiosity, and a wish to practice for maximum result.

 

[Cobie]

@ChiDragon the characters (at https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54461-buddhist-meditations-for-extinguishing-the-self/?do=findComment&comment=1001175 ) are much appreciated, thank you very much.  
 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Cobie

[Lairg]

Don Juan tells us that the mind in humans is a foreign installation.

 

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cienciareal/esp_donjuan13.htm

 

From my observation it is a bit more complex:. 

 

- The most obvious foreign installation operates human defenses and is useful for integrating the human until first stage enlightenment.  It operates at the top of the personality mind and tells the human that it (the installation) is the real human.

 

- There are other adverse entities using concealed entries at the top of the personality spectrum as well as anchors into the etheric brain.  

 

- There are adverse entities that connect to major and minor chakras.

 

There is also a higher intelligence that works with suitable humans.  Sometimes this is called: the soul, guardian angel, neshama etc.    Suitability includes acquistion of higher mental substance, a relatively clean brain and not too much bad karma.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Lairg

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Tom Beckett said:

From what I have heard from many , Buddhist meditations are primarily directed at separating or extinguishing the self. What are these meditations and how do they work? 

 

That’s not quite accurate. There is no extinguishing or separating of a self involved. My perspective is that Buddhist meditations are primarily directed at seeing the truth of the self. The first step is to slow the mind down a bit, get a little control over it so that we can really look at it more deeply. This is the first stage of meditation - samatha. Once we are able to rest the mind, we begin to have a chance to really look at it.  Look at your own sense of self directly. What is it, where is it, how does it work? This is called vipassana. When you look deeply enough for long enough you may discover something really amazing, namely that your self is not at all what it always seemed to be but something far more powerful, creative, resourceful, flexible, …. It completely changes your perspective and your life. The next step is to integrate that “knowledge” and potential into all aspects of life. 

[Tom Beckett]

It would be nice to get some control of my mind. One of my greatest struggles in meditation is that I have intrusive thoughts that I deal with often and it’s hard to meditate and focus with them around.

[Indiken]

59 minutes ago, Tom Beckett said:

It would be nice to get some control of my mind. One of my greatest struggles in meditation is that I have intrusive thoughts that I deal with often and it’s hard to meditate and focus with them around.

 

I think you can wait for thoughts to pass, or solve the issues which are causing these thoughts.

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Tom Beckett said:

It would be nice to get some control of my mind. One of my greatest struggles in meditation is that I have intrusive thoughts that I deal with often and it’s hard to meditate and focus with them around.

 

If intrusive thoughts are an issue it helps to focus on an object of meditation. Many use the breath for that purpose. In the Bön traditon we focus on the Tibetan letter A but anything can work. Start with short sessions and gradually increase time. Stay focused on the object. Notice when you disconnect and return, over and over and over. Quality is far more important than quantity. Frequent short practices are better than long practices in the beginning. The keys are consistency and familiarity. With patience and persistence the thoughts will become less frequent and less intrusive.

 

 

 

[stirling]

7 hours ago, Tom Beckett said:

It would be nice to get some control of my mind. One of my greatest struggles in meditation is that I have intrusive thoughts that I deal with often and it’s hard to meditate and focus with them around.

 

In terms of approach, trying to control the mind will always fail. It isn't ours to control. Grasping at trying to make mind be quiet is like trying to hold tightly to a wet bar of soap... it comedically pops out of your hand and into the air. What you have noticed is one of the first insights - that mind is what tortures us with its inane non-stop litany of noise and insult.

 

In Buddhism we learn to see thoughts as the natural play of the mind. We count "mind" (small "m") as just another sense, to go along with sight, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching. (m)ind is not what "we" are, it is a sensory input that interprets the other sensory inputs and generates the story of what we experience. We can see this in meditation: When the mind is quiet and empty and a thought arises we can WATCH that thought arise and pass. Because we can watch it we can see that, like all phenomena that arise in the senses, it is not what the "I" is. We are what observes the senses. 

 

So, how do we defeat (m)ind? We can't. What we can do is become adept at allowing the mind to settle out and become still. This is the remedy, ultimately. We can also learn to see the mind for what it is, and give it less to engage with by noticing when we get lost in our thoughts. We can then bring ourselves back to stillness. The more we practice coming back "home" to our still mind, the more the mind inclines toward this way of being in daily life. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by stirling
-clarity-

[silent thunder]

While it's still my experience that there is little influence on the source of thoughts and emotions, in that i do not choose what to feel, and only rarely what to think; i do experience, at times, the ability to stop feeding into thoughts and emotions when they arise to not narrate into them and feed them, and instead allow them to fall away.  Thoughts and emotions arise like waves and with a more yin approach, they fall away if not fed and followed.

 

The Storyteller is perhaps the most pervasive and challenging aspect of mind in my experience.  It seemingly effortlessly fills broad strokes and fine details of narration from tiny snippets of experience that subsequently feed a particular thought/emotion path.  A thought arises, an emotional response is triggered, and the Storyteller brings to fruition a narration that if followed, prompts another similar thought which reinforces the emotion and this self feeding cycle becomes as a train, that once inertially powered can chug on indefinitely dominating my awareness for extended periods.

 

Acknowledging without analyzing or judging is a decidedly yin process and one that is often experienced to be as elusive as it is effective.  Though looking back over the last several decades i recognize a marked diminishment of feeding of the Storyteller. 

 

Of late, i find a recent persistent craving developing... to detach from the world and withdraw for an extended period in solitude from human company and society.  i've always taken short solo retreats (3 -7 days) into the woods throughout my adult life, but lately, there is a sincere draw to pull away for a year or more.  This will have to wait for certain life changes to occur.  So the daily dance with the waves and the narrator continues, and i am grateful for the awareness at least that the storyteller is not a gauge of truth, nor reality, only story... and in this, there is an experience of freedom in observing and releasing rather than identifying with the generated story and being operated by it.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by silent thunder
reworded final sentence

[C T]

Imo, with sufficient rightly directed contemplation, one arrives at the realization that what's truly vital is overcoming dualistic tendencies, and not, in any manner, to attempt practices that open doors which lead to self-annihilation. This, I'm quite certain, is not an objective in authentic Buddhist praxis. 

[exorcist_1699]

On 2023/2/21 at 4:44 AM, Tom Beckett said:

From what I have heard from many , Buddhist meditations are primarily directed at separating or extinguishing the self. What are these meditations and how do they work? 

 

That you can't  reply on your existing ego ,  its senses, reasoning ability , emotions ( vanity and expectations..etc )  to attain the Buddha Mind is the essence of the Buddhist meditation . Billions of moon's reflections on Earth's pools, creeks, rivers, springs..etc   are not the moon itself  regardless of  how pretty they look ,  how splendid they think of themselves . So detachment from those sense, those reasoning ( to differentiate which is the whole , which is the part ;  to think who is good, who is bad ; to separate steps and layers..etc ) and those egos in a prompt way  ( as there is no steps and layers , of course it is a sudden grasp ) is the key .  Zen's way is a unity of  mind ("心" , a potential Buddha , also a cognitive subject ) , way ("法" ) , Buddha ("佛" , an ubiquitous essence )  that makes  no-mind is the Mind , no way is the Way  , non-doing is doing possible ..,  which unfortunately is  hardly grasped by people , even the smart  ones ;

Edited February 24, 2023 by exorcist_1699

[Maddie]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:59 AM, Tom Beckett said:

It would be nice to get some control of my mind. One of my greatest struggles in meditation is that I have intrusive thoughts that I deal with often and it’s hard to meditate and focus with them around.

 

Meditation isn't silencing the mind. Meditation is knowing the mind. 

[Maddie]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:59 AM, Tom Beckett said:

It would be nice to get some control of my mind. One of my greatest struggles in meditation is that I have intrusive thoughts that I deal with often and it’s hard to meditate and focus with them around.

 

When you realize you can't control the mind then you can realize the mind is not self and then you realize what needs to be realized. 😌

[Tom Beckett]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:58 PM, C T said:

Imo, with sufficient rightly directed contemplation, one arrives at the realization that what's truly vital is overcoming dualistic tendencies, and not, in any manner, to attempt practices that open doors which lead to self-annihilation. This, I'm quite certain, is not an objective in authentic Buddhist praxis. 

What exactly do you mean by this?

[searcher7977]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:58 PM, C T said:

Imo, with sufficient rightly directed contemplation, one arrives at the realization that what's truly vital is overcoming dualistic tendencies, and not, in any manner, to attempt practices that open doors which lead to self-annihilation. This, I'm quite certain, is not an objective in authentic Buddhist praxis. 

 

Yes, successful meditation in this context overcomes the experience of dualism, due to an experience of nondualism. However, this includes the dualism (and illusion) of a separate entity or point of reference we refer to as "the self." 

Additionally, it is indeed an objective in Buddhist praxis, one of 3 marks of existence in Theravada, a concrete stage within the four stages from stream entry to arahant, and the main focus in Zen. Anatta, not self. The other two doors are dukkha (stress/suffering) and anicca (impermanence). 

Edited February 25, 2023 by searcher7977

[Lairg]

How many stages of meditation might there be:

 

- refining the personality

- increasing cosmic flows

- taking a planetary role

- discovering cosmic identity

- taking a cosmic role

- discovering trans-universal identity

- ?

[C T]

5 hours ago, Tom Beckett said:

What exactly do you mean by this?

The comment was in response to your OP "Buddhist meditation for extinguishing the self". 

 

Imo, there are no meditations in Buddhism as implied in the OP. This is because, from the pov of Buddhist praxis, the self is nothing more than a prop - it's apparentness and existence is a conglomeration of nothing more than mental imprints that came about out of our habitual ways of grasping at sense impressions. With this tendency, it's unavoidable that our relationship with the world will tend to be based off the mistaken view of a constant subject/object split, which then begets and propagates all sorts of other conflicting ideas and relational views with the external world. This brings about stress because we continue to operate from a false premise. 

 

Correcting this by realigning & reconcialating Right View resolves the dichotomy. This is the fundamental goal in Buddhist contemplative practices. To expend precious energy by chasing after the annihilation of a mirage-like self is pernicious yet commonly practiced - its a habitual thing, one which perpetuates all sorts of unnecessary strife. 

 

* Venkatesh on Right View - https://tricycle.org/article/right-view/

 

 

[Maddie]

I noticed here I keep hearing dualism versus non-dualism used in a Buddhist context which is interesting because to my knowledge I have never read of the Buddha discussing this in any of the suttas. I thought this was a Hindu concept.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Maddie

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

I noticed here I keep hearing dualism versus non-dualism used in a Buddhist context which is interesting because to my knowledge I have never read of the Buddha are discussing this in any of the suttas. I thought this was a Hindu concept.

 

Alan Watts once said that Buddhism is essentially Hinduism stripped of cultural baggage and optimized for export. 

I think this is an overly simplistic view and "devil is in the details" but there is some truth there. 

In my experience, duality and non-duality show up in many ways in Buddhist (and Bön) theory and practice.

The concepts of duality and non-duality are implicit in the doctrine of dependent origination, Bodhicitta, and the view of shunyata.

This becomes more and more clear through experiential practice, while not always clear intellectually.

On the other hand, duality and non-duality are explicitly stated in the doctrine of the Two Truths.

 

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

Alan Watts once said that Buddhism is essentially Hinduism stripped of cultural baggage and optimized for export. 

I think this is an overly simplistic view and "devil is in the details" but there is some truth there. 

In my experience, duality and non-duality show up in many ways in Buddhist (and Bön) theory and practice.

The concepts of duality and non-duality are implicit in the doctrine of dependent origination, Bodhicitta, and the view of shunyata.

This becomes more and more clear through experiential practice, while not always clear intellectually.

On the other hand, duality and non-duality are explicitly stated in the doctrine of the Two Truths.

 

 

While I'm not familiar with some of the other things that you mentioned I don't see how dependent origination relates to non-duality? 

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

I noticed here I keep hearing dualism versus non-dualism used in a Buddhist context which is interesting because to my knowledge I have never read of the Buddha are discussing this in any of the suttas. I thought this was a Hindu concept.

 

Dependent origination when completely understood IS non-dual. The concept of dependent origination is probably Buddhisms most powerful teaching tool and conceptual framework that points to the non-dual "Wisdom" (Prajna) aspect of the Two Truths doctrine.

 

If you want a deep dive into non-dual Buddhist philosophy you can't go wrong with Buddhism's Einstein, Nagarjuna. Also read the Heart Sutra, Diamond Cutter Sutra, Bahiya Sutra, or the Vimalakirti Nirdesha Sutra, amongst others. 

 

Many religions have a non dual component: Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism - there are even non dual elements in Christianity and Western philosophy if you know where to look. Different religions and philosophies look at non-duality through different lenses and come from different perspectives. The core underlying reality is the same. Once understood it easy to see everywhere.

[doc benway]

28 minutes ago, stirling said:

Many religions have a non dual component: Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism - there are even non dual elements in Christianity and Western philosophy if you know where to look.

 

Being raised in Judaism, I always had trouble connecting with it for a variety of reasons. 

I was once driving with an ultra-orthodox rabbi, who coincidentally drove like a maniac...

I asked him about his understanding of God and his way of describing it led me to a rudimentary (conceptual) understanding of non-duality. Many years later I was attending a Bar-Mitzvah, a ritualistic Jewish coming of age ceremony, and the brother of a friend gave some brief comments. Somehow his comments opened me up to a different and much deeper understanding of the most important and fundamental prayer in the liturgy, the Shema - Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One. What opened up for me was that in describing the Lord as One (or, taking a liberty with the translation - One-ness) we are stating a doctrine of non-duality. Whether that is correct or incorrect, accurate or inaccurate, it was immediately true for me, and will always remain so based on my own spiritual path and experiences, and has helped me connect more deeply with the prayers and liturgy and my own heritage in a sense.