Buddhist meditations for extinguishing the self

[doc benway]

6 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I love this understanding of the Shema.  Interestingly, you're not the only one to see it this way...

 

Here's a quote from 2123 The Deeper Meaning of the Shema Yisroel Daily Chant (Print) — Rabbi David Cooper:

 

All of Judaism, and in many ways, all of Western tradition can be summed up in one sentence: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is One. The emphasis of this statement is: Oneness. Kabbalah teaches that this sentence summarizes the entire Torah and all of Western mysticism. This is the essential culmination of non-duality. It is not referring to the number one, for that would suggest that there are other numbers, or that there are no numbers (the idea of zero). This oneness is inclusive—transcending numbers—embracing all ideas, it holds within it nothingness as well as infinity. It is without limit. Kabbalah refers to this oneness as Ein Sof, which means “without end.” I usually refer to this as Boundlessness.

 

 Very cool, thanks for sharing that. I’ve never studied Kabbalah.

[wandelaar]

31 minutes ago, steve said:

One can realize what the self is not by observing one’s own experience carefully. All of the different things that we tend to identify with as self can be seen to be only passing experiences and partial descriptions. If this is done consistently over a period of time a realization can arise regarding the nature of self. Telling someone what that realization is supposed to be tends not to be at all helpful, often quite the opposite. Allowing someone to do the work for themselves is generally the most effective method of discovery.

 

I personally don't believe in the self as an autonomous kernel of individuality because indeed everything flows and is interdependent. I have dumped the whole idea of a self on rational grounds without needing any cultivation or extraordinary experiences to do so. However the idea of there not being a self is deeply disturbing to many people and it could lead to unwanted social consequences when further developed as a form of nihilism. I think that this is the reason why the Buddha stopped short of drawing the logical conclusion of his own way of reasoning that would have resulted in declaring the self to be an ill-defined illusory idea. However you can (as in my example) continue to believe in a transitory self, or in a succession of self's (such as a juvenile self, an adolescent self etc.). Such self's wouldn't be anything transcendental, but more like one's momentary personality.

 

What you declare as fundamental to the self is that passing experiences and partial descriptions don't point to the real self. But why not? If you don't believe in a transcendental self and only take your transitory self to be the real thing, than the Buddhist refutation becomes irrelevant.

Edited March 1, 2023 by wandelaar

[doc benway]

 

53 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I personally don't believe in the self as an autonomous kernel of individuality because indeed everything flows and is interdependent. I have dumped the whole idea of a self on rational grounds without needing any cultivation or extraordinary experiences to do so.

I don't bother much with belief and intellectual investigation into self and other spiritual matters.

That was my path for a long time and it's been exhausted. 

 

53 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

However the idea of there not being a self is deeply disturbing to many people and it could lead to unwanted social consequences when further developed as a form of nihilism.

Agreed and this is one reason that a solely intellectual approach can be problematic. 

When the rational mind negates the idea of self through reasoning, what is left?

Rationally speaking, there is nothing left hence the risk of nihilistic trauma. 

When we approach the issue experientially something very interesting happens.

We search and search and can't find anything reliable we can call "self."

This is known as emptiness. And yet, even in the absence of that sense of self we are still quite alert, aware, and vividly present.

Something is there, a knowingness, an immediate and vibrant presence, unlimited potential.

This is an antidote for nihilism and why experiential practice can be advantageous, particularly for anyone prone to it.

 

53 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I think that this is the reason why the Buddha stopped short of drawing the logical conclusion of his own way of reasoning that would have resulted in declaring the self to be an ill-defined illusory idea.

I think there are also other reasons. 

One being what has come to be called the Two Truths.

There is the absolute truth which sees through the permanence and solidity of self.

And there is the relative truth which acknowledges and honors our lived experience in duality.

Both are equally legitimate, equally real. 

 

53 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

However you can (as in my example) continue to believe in a transitory self, or in a succession of self's (such as a juvenile self, an adolescent self etc.). Such self's wouldn't be anything transcendental, but more like one's momentary personality.

Yes, I agree. I also feel that belief is not necessary. 

We know our sense of self without any need for belief or disbelief.

I disagree with those that say there is no self.

Every one of us has a direct and very personal experience of self, except for some with rare pathological conditions. 

The experience of self is very real and very much a part of our lives.

To deny it is simply an intellectual game and I see that game being played quite often.

On the other hand, what we take to be a self is something that is very elusive to define or display.

 

53 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

What you declare as fundamental to the self is that passing experiences and partial descriptions don't point to the real self. But why not? If you don't believe in a transcendental self and only take your transitory self to be the real thing, than the Buddhist refutation becomes irrelevant.

Perhaps I'm not being clear.

I don't mean to imply that transient experiences and partial descriptions are not real.

They are very much a part of our life experience and I consider them to be as real as anything else.

What I am saying is simply that they are not the whole story, they are inaccurate, misleading, and, most important, very limiting.

They are not who or what we are, just a passing experience or conceptual or experiential fragment.

We are so much more than that.

This is one of the great benefits to realizing the illusory nature of our sense of self, it opens us up to possibilities and potential that we otherwise overlook due to self-imposed limitations related to our sense of self. 

 

 

[wandelaar]

@steve

 

We largely agree. I also subscribe to the two truths doctrine. However I don't agree that nothing is left after the self is seen as illusory by way of some hard-nosed rational thinking. We keep functioning as human beings even after the illusion of the self is removed and the world around us doesn't evaporate. And that's because the world of which we are only a part has a structure and way of operating of its own called Tao in Taoism. Tao operates everywhere and also inside us. So things stay pretty much as they were before, unless of course if you can't deal with the insight of not having a self. And I agree that here being part of a legit lineage can be appropriate for some people who would go berserk when thinking the matter trough all on their own.

[Tom Beckett]

Hello, I have been out of dao bums for quite a while and have made quite the philosophical journey. I spent time with the universalist Christian church and saw a new perspective , I don’t believe the self should be extinguished or that it does not exist. I believe that it does indeed exist and that it is special, but it should not be the main focus of our lives. We should focus on the other souls of this world and show your love to them. Granted you won’t be perfect and maybe a bit mischievous but show your love and care for others, especially in the toughest times. I don’t believe the self is an illusion like some Buddhists say but I think I wanted to believe that because if I was not “me” then I would be a stronger person, maybe I did not like myself. 

[manitou]

1 hour ago, Tom Beckett said:

Hello, I have been out of dao bums for quite a while and have made quite the philosophical journey. I spent time with the universalist Christian church and saw a new perspective , I don’t believe the self should be extinguished or that it does not exist. I believe that it does indeed exist and that it is special, but it should not be the main focus of our lives. We should focus on the other souls of this world and show your love to them. Granted you won’t be perfect and maybe a bit mischievous but show your love and care for others, especially in the toughest times. I don’t believe the self is an illusion like some Buddhists say but I think I wanted to believe that because if I was not “me” then I would be a stronger person, maybe I did not like myself. 

 

 

When masters speak of extinguishing the self, I think they're talking about extinguishing those things inside ourselves that prevent us from clarity.  If we've been conditioned all our lives to act in a certain way, or react when something in particular hits an existing trigger inside, the trick is to get rid of the existing trigger.  By 'extinguish the self', it's getting rid of excessive ego that prevents us from seeing clearly.

 

Your words about focusing on the other souls of this world are beautiful.  It almost becomes second nature when it is kept in mind that we and the other person are the same entities, but with different conditionings.  Then, to focus on another is really just to focus on self after all.  As to ridding ourselves of unwanted conditioning, a person could start from where they are at this moment.  If and when a reaction bubbles up within, causing anger or irritation - then it is most likely that the very trait that is driving you nuts in the other person, is actually the same trait we have in ourselves.  I think that's a good way to start to dissolve the unwanted inside us.  The trick is to see where the reaction comes from - and most likely there is often a little memory there from childhood that is the offender.  Usually it's an innocuous little memory that repeatedly comes up - maybe just a glimpse of you as a child having some experience.  If these little memories remain after all these years, there's a reason we're remembering it.  During shamanic healing, this is an effective method of reversing the trend - to reverse the little memory.

 

Nice to have you back, Tom.

[Cobie]

.

Edited June 4 by Cobie

[old3bob]

.

Edited April 1, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

.

Edited April 1, 2023 by old3bob

[Tommy]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:59 AM, Tom Beckett said:

It would be nice to get some control of my mind. One of my greatest struggles in meditation is that I have intrusive thoughts that I deal with often and it’s hard to meditate and focus with them around.

It use to be the same for me. When sitting, the mind would always look at itself and have another thought about what was going on. A sort of ego watching and having thoughts while being there with mind on breath. So, that ego continues to make thoughts. I have found that if I just focus upon the actions of my mind. Doing what I am set to do. Nothing else. That I truly begin to let go of thoughts. Mind becomes focused. From there, I know my concentration is better. The quiet between thoughts last longer.

[Tommy]

On 3/30/2023 at 2:35 PM, manitou said:

When masters speak of extinguishing the self, I think they're talking about extinguishing those things inside ourselves that prevent us from clarity.  If we've been conditioned all our lives to act in a certain way, or react when something in particular hits an existing trigger inside, the trick is to get rid of the existing trigger.  By 'extinguish the self', it's getting rid of excessive ego that prevents us from seeing clearly.

This is somewhat similar to what Gurdjieff taught. That people cannot perceive reality as they are, because they are not conscious of themselves, but rather live in a state of hypnotic "waking sleep" of constantly turning thoughts, worries and imagination. In different words, when watching oneself, events will happen to trigger a reaction from us such as anger. The anger needs the mind to reinforce it with thoughts to support the anger. And thus the feelings of anger are fed and stay alive in the mind. One does not make decisions but react to situations. One does not see clearly because the mind works on auto pilot.

 

So practice is not so much for extinguishing the self. More of the art of putting things in order for the true self to come occupy its rightful place. To let go of auto pilot running things. To take control again. There really is nothing to prevent us from seeing clearly. It is just all this stuff we put up front. Put things in order and naturally, the true natural mind will take over.

[johndoe2012]

We already see clearly but then start to believe the mind there is more work to do to arrive at a future, better state. 

 

Call the bullshit of the mind and the party is over 😊

[johndoe2012]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, Tom Beckett said:

From what I have heard from many , Buddhist meditations are primarily directed at separating or extinguishing the self. What are these meditations and how do they work? 

 

I suddenly remembered Rinzai Zen.

 

You can access good courses on inner-craft.com, for direct pointing the Zen way 

 

https://www.inner-craft.com/courses/direct-pointing-sudden-awakening/

 

also other general Zen courses are available.

[tao.te.kat]

>So practice is not so much for extinguishing the self. 

 

You cannot extinguish what isnt here.

 

But to avoid confussion about what is and what is not a self, it's better, as said, to work on seeing clearly.

 

Once clearly seen the mind, it doesnt matter the words. You know what exists and what doesnt. Call it self or not-self

[manitou]

On 5/27/2024 at 8:47 PM, Tommy said:

One does not make decisions but react to situations. One does not see clearly because the mind works on auto pilot.

 

 

When there are no more reactions because the blockages have been removed, this is a good way to judge our own progress.  If we're constantly angry, there is much inner work that needs to be done.

[Tommy]

On 6/21/2024 at 4:45 PM, manitou said:

When there are no more reactions because the blockages have been removed, this is a good way to judge our own progress.  If we're constantly angry, there is much inner work that needs to be done.

It has been a long time since I have read the book. And am not sure. In the book "The Forth Way", one is told to practice self observation. Watch when one gets angry, that the mind goes into an automatic mode of arising self supporting thoughts of anger. Then, when one learns of these reactions, to practice clearing the mind. To make appropriate changes. This is called putting the house in order.

 

My latest endeavor has been to delve into Zen. And from that, I have learned of a state of being which Buddha alluded to. Some call it Nirvana. Others call it stepping into the stream. Some even call it enlightenment. I do know that Zazen practice leads to allowing one to step out of the confines of the present mind. To break the five skandhas. Live in a point where the mind opens and love, wisdom and compassion are the results. Although I presently do not have that experience and am not chasing it, i believe that Buddha nature does exist.

 

Everyone keeps saying do not just stare at the finger pointing to the moon. I have looked up to the moon and seen that it points back down to the finger. One does not exist without the other. And so, clean up your house. Follow the eightfold path which essentially means to clean up your act. Live a good life. Do your practice as needed (also any exercise to keep fit). And enjoy the journey you are on.

[manitou]

On 5/27/2024 at 8:47 PM, Tommy said:

More of the art of putting things in order for the true self to come occupy its rightful place.

 

 

Excellent post, Tommy! I think this is what it's all about.

 

When I first got sober 42 years ago, I wasn't remotely spiritual, or care about any of this metaphysical stuff.  I just needed to quit drinking and quit slowly killing myself.  I jumped into the steps of recovery, which is a process in which a thorough and fearless personal inventory of our character 'defects' must be made.  And then they must be removed, by a painful process usually involving making amends to people I had forked over in the past.  This is a huge undertaking, one that has lasted my entire sober life, and it keeps evolving.

 

But I keep getting better.  Removing those conditionings that make me react in anger, frustration, sarcasm....any of those things that are in my way...has been my path since the beginning of this endeavor.  What has evolved is someone who is in much acceptance (not perfect acceptance, but it gets better as I continue the practice) of the things crossing my path in life.  I have come to realize that you and I are not separate at all; we are merely the same soul that has gone through different conditionings, making it appear separate, as we have manifested our outer selves.

 

In the Big Book of AA, there is a thing called The Promises. It says something like 'If you are earnest in these steps, you will meet SOME OF US as we 'trudge the path of happy destiny'.  What I take this to mean, 42 years after first reading it, is that some of us will get to the point of clarity - of enlightenment, if you will - and see life unfiltered by ego.  Of course not everybody will be earnest about this, most will just want to stay sober, and that's enough.  But there are those of us who were born seekers, apparently, and this has been a tried and true path for doing the elimination of character that is needed.

 

But that's only one path.  Any path that emphasizes earnestly striving to become a better person by removal of excessive ego is going to end up in clarity, depending on how seriously one takes it.

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Tommy]

Here is an unpopular thought, wait, this is the thread for meditation extinguishing oneself. No, meditation does not extinguish oneself. When we practice meditation, we let go of thoughts. We do not follow them. We allow their path into and out of our mind. We do not become attached to them. We do not identify with thoughts. Then, we become more and more our true self. We begin to use thoughts as a tool rather than using thoughts as an identity. Thru this practice, we focus upon our actions and intentions. We set right what was wrong. and then thru grace, we break thru to see our true self. And it isn't moments without any thoughts rather it is moments where we do not need thoughts.

 

Okay, this can be unpopular cause some people think they are seeking something they don't have. Others think they are trying to rid themselves of a self or ego. When Buddha said there is no self, this should mean there is no reason to extinguish self because there is no self. There is no reason to believe that the practice of meditation is to extinguish the self. What we do when we practice meditation is to set things right, we learn the truth and realize our nature thru grace.

[tao.te.kat]

>hen Buddha said there is no self, this should mean there is no reason to extinguish self because there is no self. There is no reason to believe that the practice of meditation is to extinguish the self. What we do when we practice meditation is to set things right, we learn the truth and realize our nature thru grace.

 

That's right, "extinguising the self" is as silly as saying you want to extinguish unicorns. 

 

Ok,  mimicking Bodhidharma,

 

- I want to extinguish the self

- Then show me your self

- I cannot find it!!!

- So it's extinguished!

 

 

Is that silly.

 

Buddhism is about removing suffering, and one way for it is understanding our mind completly. Understanding processes like pratītyasamutpāda and the absence (now, then and ever) of a concrete agent...

 

Is not about not-thinking of course. You will always, always will hace intelectual thinking. Buddha did think in the sutras

 

In Mahayana buddhism the attachment to samadhis and non-thought sends you to a formless realm but not to nirvana.

 

So, why practice samadhi and non-thought?, well it has a place in the eigthfold path. It's mind trainig and also helps you to slowly see what is behind the noisy thought system, but without a clear view of it all, it's nearly useless. Remember the parable of calming the dirty waters. Is that.

 

You can find people who has a kensho without meditating at all, just because of their natural self-inquiry (non formal). And you can find people reaching the nth jhanaa and no kensho, but worse, no wisdom or not that much understanding, or compassion or release from suffering.

 

In Tibet the Meditational path starts AFTER the path of seeing, because the real meditation which is abiding in your realized nature accepting all (also thoughts) only happens after seeing (kensho).

 

Best wishes

Edited August 6 by tao.te.kat