Why Banish and not invoke?

[yeq88]

I saw a post on r/occult today that basically asked, why in Golden Dawn adjacent magick do people in the outer order banish and not invoke, and how does this not lead to a huge imbalance of energies?

I'm curious since I've been considering the LBRP for a while now (haven't done it, since I'm learning about all this stuff before doing anything) but now am hesitant.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

To banish and not invoke is a "popular" mistake.  The purpose of banishing is to create a clear space, so that invocation can proceed in a "cleansed" area.  The banishing Ritual of the Pentagram should always be followed by the invoking one, and I have always taught my students to follow both of these with the Rose Cross Ritual, a less well known, but extremely valuable ritual, which provides definite benefits.

 

ZYD

[yeq88]

5 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

To banish and not invoke is a "popular" mistake.  The purpose of banishing is to create a clear space, so that invocation can proceed in a "cleansed" area.  The banishing Ritual of the Pentagram should always be followed by the invoking one, and I have always taught my students to follow both of these with the Rose Cross Ritual, a less well known, but extremely valuable ritual, which provides definite benefits.

 

ZYD

I'm happy to get a reply from you, as I consider you very informed!

Thanks for clearing up my doubts. I'll keep this in mind! Do you have any advice for a beginner on how to start and do so safely?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I am about to start posting on my early experience with Golden Dawn material and my analysis of Franz Bardon's material here:

 

Bardon and Golden Dawn

 

I am almost done withe the first post and will be posting it in the next twelve hours or so.  My plan is to follow it up with a whole series analyzing the issues in detail.

 

ZYD

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, yeq88 said:

I saw a post on r/occult today that basically asked, why in Golden Dawn adjacent magick do people in the outer order banish and not invoke, and how does this not lead to a huge imbalance of energies?

I'm curious since I've been considering the LBRP for a while now (haven't done it, since I'm learning about all this stuff before doing anything) but now am hesitant.

 

Let's forget about those terms as they apply to specific rituals, as such, but look at them more generally .

 

Consider the 'banishing' ritual of the pentagram , how does that start ? I would say the first process is an invocation . Depending on what form of LBRP you are looking at, I am assuming it starts with 'bringing down' energy and making a cross of light in yourself ; invoking and balancing forces . Then, the person thus 'charged' , does the banishing ritual . Then when the forces are banished / balanced , the ritual ends with another invocation of the 'cross of light' .

 

To me it seems like the process of 'gradual purification '   'one has to start some where ' .  Eg .  In some systems the making of one's magical tools need other magical tools  - the symbols on some things might be charged by tracing over them with the magical dagger. But the magical dagger has symbols on it too , what is going to trace them ? The wand ? But that was symbols on it too .

 

At some stage, we have to begin work with some type of 'Prima Materia' . 

 

( Yeah ... I know , 'nowadays' you just buy a 'ready' magical dagger on-line  .......       )

 

That might be behind why some groups get 'beginners' well up on the banishing ritual before they undertake invocations . Like making sure  the 'kid' know where the breaks are and how to use them  before you  take off down hill on the pushbike !

 

In the larger view and looking at magical applications in 'real life' , at first it seems best for the beginner to 'banish' - keep a clear or 'sacred space' around you .... 'push away' the negative .  After some time of practice ( and learning  ) it changes to more of an 'invocation' , in that one absorbs the energies and leans to transmute / balance them with other energies that can be absorbed  or exist  within .

 

In a way , it is similar to the approach in  ' karate '  - modern ( school kid karate - as that's what it was designed for ; primary school kids physical fitness program in Okinawa ) - they teach you to 'block' attacks  and those 'blocks' come with names like 'bari' or 'uke' , which dont mean 'block' at all , but describe the original ,  practical and workable techniques ; 'absorb' , 'spear' , 'enter' etc . One allows or even 'helps' the force into your 'sphere' and then that force is manipulated .

 

-  I am trying to be general here , and not specific nor focus exactly on ritual . Donald seems to have taken that up  and I think it's best to hear that  side of things from one source . Its a good source  .... there is 'other advice' about which is rather, fantastic, imaginative and illusory,   and very ..... I'll say 'self relevant' for the people that give it  out  - and I doubt it is based on relevant magical practice anyway .
 

 

Spoiler

[ Another note on all this : I was recently talking to this guy I have known for about a year  - he 'meditates' every day  ... he 'does his practice' . Recently he filled out another application for Vipassana , he had to give details of other Vipassanas he had done . I was amazed at how many  he has done over the years - MANY hours .  He also spent some time , with his friend , with both of them trying to convince me how great and all encompassing their system was , and how I should do it .    

 

Then he goes away , old family biz. Comes back a spiritual , psychic and physical wreck . It all bought back bad stuff for him , 'picked up something' from a 'dark location'  , could not shake it  and actually ended up sick . When he shared all this with me and I suggested protection rituals , banishing type practices , 'clearing' , 'invoking' other energies , etc etc .  he  didnt have a clue what I was talking about  !   I have seen this a few times  ... people that do years long practice  and  have no 'skill' or haven't actually changed .

 

Our practices should be able to actually help us  ....' deal with things ' . ]

 

[Nungali]

Lets look at the parts of the LBRP

 

1 .  'The cross of light'  - I consider that 'invoking',  in away.

2. Setting a pentagram and 'God-name' in each quarter - might be considered 'invoking' .

3. 'Pushing the pentagram out ' ( as some do ) and going from 1/4  to 1/4  - might be considered 'banishing' .

4. 'Setting the Archangels'  or  Elements at each 1/4  - I consider invoking .

5. ' The 5 / 6 , pentagram, hexagram' ...   'assumption'   ( hmmmm ... could be both ) .

6. End with another cross -  'invoking' .

 

Also a 'consideration for mediation ' ..... how does one 'banish' darkness ?

 

- By turning on  ( or invoking ) the light .

[yeq88]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Let's forget about those terms as they apply to specific rituals, as such, but look at them more generally .

 

Consider the 'banishing' ritual of the pentagram , how does that start ? I would say the first process is an invocation . Depending on what form of LBRP you are looking at, I am assuming it starts with 'bringing down' energy and making a cross of light in yourself ; invoking and balancing forces . Then, the person thus 'charged' , does the banishing ritual . Then when the forces are banished / balanced , the ritual ends with another invocation of the 'cross of light' .

 

To me it seems like the process of 'gradual purification '   'one has to start some where ' .  Eg .  In some systems the making of one's magical tools need other magical tools  - the symbols on some things might be charged by tracing over them with the magical dagger. But the magical dagger has symbols on it too , what is going to trace them ? The wand ? But that was symbols on it too .

 

At some stage, we have to begin work with some type of 'Prima Materia' . 

 

( Yeah ... I know , 'nowadays' you just buy a 'ready' magical dagger on-line  .......       )

 

That might be behind why some groups get 'beginners' well up on the banishing ritual before they undertake invocations . Like making sure  the 'kid' know where the breaks are and how to use them  before you  take off down hill on the pushbike !

 

In the larger view and looking at magical applications in 'real life' , at first it seems best for the beginner to 'banish' - keep a clear or 'sacred space' around you .... 'push away' the negative .  After some time of practice ( and learning  ) it changes to more of an 'invocation' , in that one absorbs the energies and leans to transmute / balance them with other energies that can be absorbed  or exist  within .

 

In a way , it is similar to the approach in  ' karate '  - modern ( school kid karate - as that's what it was designed for ; primary school kids physical fitness program in Okinawa ) - they teach you to 'block' attacks  and those 'blocks' come with names like 'bari' or 'uke' , which dont mean 'block' at all , but describe the original ,  practical and workable techniques ; 'absorb' , 'spear' , 'enter' etc . One allows or even 'helps' the force into your 'sphere' and then that force is manipulated .

 

-  I am trying to be general here , and not specific nor focus exactly on ritual . Donald seems to have taken that up  and I think it's best to hear that  side of things from one source . Its a good source  .... there is 'other advice' about which is rather, fantastic, imaginative and illusory,   and very ..... I'll say 'self relevant' for the people that give it  out  - and I doubt it is based on relevant magical practice anyway .
 

 

  Hide contents

[ Another note on all this : I was recently talking to this guy I have known for about a year  - he 'meditates' every day  ... he 'does his practice' . Recently he filled out another application for Vipassana , he had to give details of other Vipassanas he had done . I was amazed at how many  he has done over the years - MANY hours .  He also spent some time , with his friend , with both of them trying to convince me how great and all encompassing their system was , and how I should do it .    

 

Then he goes away , old family biz. Comes back a spiritual , psychic and physical wreck . It all bought back bad stuff for him , 'picked up something' from a 'dark location'  , could not shake it  and actually ended up sick . When he shared all this with me and I suggested protection rituals , banishing type practices , 'clearing' , 'invoking' other energies , etc etc .  he  didnt have a clue what I was talking about  !   I have seen this a few times  ... people that do years long practice  and  have no 'skill' or haven't actually changed .

 

Our practices should be able to actually help us  ....' deal with things ' . ]

 

Wow, thanks for the informative reply!! Much appreciated. This makes a lot of sense. Does the LBRP banish anything that is beneficial? My mother for instance thinks my grandfather likes to visit and well.. I don't know how much sense that makes, but better safe than sorry.

[Nungali]

In that case I would use the    LBRG . 

 

 

 

[yeq88]

33 minutes ago, Nungali said:

In that case I would use the    LBRG . 

 

 

 

If it's ok with you, can you explain how it works? Also, what is that? I've actually never heard of it before hahaha. Google turned up nothing when I searched for LBRG

[Nungali]

Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Grandpa .

[Klinsly]

It's a good question and it looks like you got some good answers already! I have limited experience with the Golden Dawn, only 1 year, but just in my  Semi Armchair opinion from my overall analysis of many of the type of people that join those types of orders or systems. Most are likely very unqualified to actually do the work you could say. Which is why banishing for a while might be a good idea. Many are still very egotistical, and have not done much work on purifying themselves of vices and petty attitudes of things like  revenge etc, even in the leadership. They may be very talented or incredibly interested in the material, but probably shouldn't be doing it. There was a reason ancient mystery schools and some modern had like a year of a probationary period  to see if people were actually worthy to become initiates. It can become very culty which kinda reinforces my opinion, and why I bailed after a year. Some spend 20 years in and haven't improved their character much at all. Then others absolutely thrive. So obviously it's not everyone but many might be getting into it for the wrong reasons perhaps?  

I'd say it was just the one I joined but it seems to be a sterotype of many different ones based on what I've heard from former adepts of other orders who run podcasts.  Like Esoterinerd and Magick without Fears. And another is they usually self destruct just repeating the same history.

 

Just some thoughts. Could be completely wrong.

 

[yeq88]

On 2/24/2023 at 2:20 AM, Nungali said:

Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Grandpa .

Lol! Nice one. I doubt I'd be able to invoke if I banished in that case..

On 2/26/2023 at 1:40 AM, Klinsly said:

It's a good question and it looks like you got some good answers already! I have limited experience with the Golden Dawn, only 1 year, but just in my  Semi Armchair opinion from my overall analysis of many of the type of people that join those types of orders or systems. Most are likely very unqualified to actually do the work you could say. Which is why banishing for a while might be a good idea. Many are still very egotistical, and have not done much work on purifying themselves of vices and petty attitudes of things like  revenge etc, even in the leadership. They may be very talented or incredibly interested in the material, but probably shouldn't be doing it. There was a reason ancient mystery schools and some modern had like a year of a probationary period  to see if people were actually worthy to become initiates. It can become very culty which kinda reinforces my opinion, and why I bailed after a year. Some spend 20 years in and haven't improved their character much at all. Then others absolutely thrive. So obviously it's not everyone but many might be getting into it for the wrong reasons perhaps?  

I'd say it was just the one I joined but it seems to be a sterotype of many different ones based on what I've heard from former adepts of other orders who run podcasts.  Like Esoterinerd and Magick without Fears. And another is they usually self destruct just repeating the same history.

 

Just some thoughts. Could be completely wrong.

 

This makes sense to me, yeah. I settled on not doing the LBRP and mostly just sticking to easy, low-weight folk methods instead of using it as I felt like I don't know enough about these somewhat nuclear-grade methods (compared to lighter ones I mean..) to be deploying them in a house I share with multiple people and animals during a pandemic where any changes may be harmful. Also felt like the 19th century western schools were kind hardcore and that I don't know enough about what I'm summoning/calling upon. Basically, just felt not ready enough and an inner sense of discomfort.