Into the Stream ~ A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening

[LivingLight]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I think Buddhists, and the world at large, owe a significant debt to Thanissaro Bhikku for making these teachings so available AND so digestible. 

 

As far as his attainment, I personally haven't met him or watched interviews of him, so couldn't say what I think for sure, BUT it isn't at all outlandish to believe that he has some level of attainment. I would think his teacher would insist on that before he translated these works. Among the other great living scholars of Buddhism, for example, certainly Robert Thurman and Ken McLeod have insight and could be considered "enlightened" in my opinion. If you know what you are looking for, you start to see that enlightened "beings" are all over the place. Certainly there are a handful in any decent sized city. There are at least 3 in the little Northwestern United States town I inhabit, for example.

 

Speaking for myself, post Satori/Stream Entry "stages" were much more segmented. Than the Four Path Model. Tracking the fetters dropping away rather than path shifts made a lot more sense. I also found the "Progress of Insight" stages spotty at best, and cycling not really much of a feature of progress.

 

What I have discovered in conversation with other practitioners of different sects of Buddhism, or even other non-dual traditions, is that these two models appear to have more to do with the way enlightenment openings presents themselves as the product of Theravada practices than other practices, specifically heavy vipassana practice. Mahayana and Vajrayana practitioners seem to have very different experiences. Added on to this - no two "persons" deepening processes seem to be the same. The INSIGHT into the nature of reality is essentially the same, though the jargon around it may be different. One might say that all appearances in consciousness are empty of intrinsic reality. Another might say that everything is God. Both hint at a unity.

 

Anyone truly interested in models of enlightenment should give Daniel Ingram's survey of them in his book "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" a read:

 

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-v-awakening/37-models-of-the-stages-of-awakening/

 

Like all good dharma it is available for free.

 

Thank you for this.

Indeed, true Dharma cannot come with a price tag. Why is it that so much ''truth'' these days comes with a cost?

[Maddie]

12 minutes ago, LivingLight said:

If a part of oneself is engaged in ongoing harm upon self-other, wouldn't this part then hypothetically need ''annihilation''?

Ethics always seem to be foundational within any genuine religion.

If we define ego as that which is impure, that which can commit error then wouldn't it be fair to say that needs to be eliminated?



 

 

"Hatred is not ended by hatred. Hatred is ended by love" -Dhammapada

 

Annihilation and elimination sound very aggressive and this does not seem to be the way of the Buddha.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Maddie

[Mark Foote]

9 minutes ago, LivingLight said:

In my ignorance and humiliated state of continued suffering, I realize that observable facts are the basis of any claim.

The nature of one's suffering can be observed. Through observation, we can achieve comprehension. Lastly, elimination (annihilation) is possible.

Who is the one that eliminates that which might be the cause of error? Different religions speak to this in different capacities, all of which I find interesting to study.

 

 

 

“[Gautama] spoke thus to the monk Sati, a fisherman’s son, as he was sitting down at a respectful distance:

 

‘Is it true, as is said, that a pernicious view like this has accrued to you, Sati: “In so far as I understand [the truth] taught by [Gautama], it is that this consciousness itself runs on, fares on, not another”?’

 

‘Even so do I… understand [the teaching] ….’

 

‘What is this consciousness, Sati?’

 

‘It is this… that speaks, that feels, that experiences now here, now there, the fruition of deeds that are lovely and that are depraved.’

 

[Gautama rebukes Sati for his misrepresentation of Gautama’s teaching, and continues:] It is because… an appropriate condition arises that consciousness is known by this or that name: if consciousness arises because of eye and material shapes, it is known as visual consciousness; if consciousness arises because of ear and sounds, it is known as auditory consciousness; [so for the nose/smells/olfactory consciousness, tongue/tastes/gustatory consciousness, body/touches/tactile consciousness, mind/mental objects/mental consciousness]. …As a fire burns because of this or that appropriate condition, by that it is known: if a fire burns because of sticks, it is known as a stick-fire; and if a fire burns because of chips, it is known as a chip-fire; … and so with regard to grass, cow-dung, chaff, and rubbish.”

 

(MN I 258-259, Vol I pg 313-315)
 

No, I don't experience consciousness that way, although it's interesting to stop and reflect on consciousness as that.  No doubt, that's why he said:
 

(Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).

 

(Majjhima-Nikaya, Pali Text Society vol 3 p 337-338)

 

In the moment of Gautama's enlightenment, he observed:

“The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” 

 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152)

 

Gautama taught the four "arisings of mindfulness" as present in the first concentration.  He described four initial concentrations leading to the cessation of habit/volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and five subsequent concentrations leading to the cessation of will/volition in the activity of "feeling and perceiving" with the mind.  About the concentrations, he said:

 

 

[The bad person] reflects thus: ‘I am an acquirer of the attainment of the first meditation.’ [Such a person] then exalts [him or her self] for that attainment of the first meditation and disparages others… But a good (person] reflects thus: ‘Lack of desire even for the attainment of the first meditation has been spoken of by [Gautama]; for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise” [Similarly for the second, third, and fourth initial meditative states, and for the attainments of the first four further meditative states].

 

And again … a good [person], by passing quite beyond the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, enters on and abides in the stopping of perception and feeling; and when [such a person] has seen by means of wisdom [their] cankers are caused to be destroyed. And… this [person] does not imagine [his or her self] to be aught or anywhere or in anything.

 

(MN III 42-45, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 92-94)

 

 

[Lairg]

Is suffering an arbitrary function attached to humans and various animals?

 

Or is suffering part of a larger process?

 

As a somewhat trivial example:

 

Long long ago I had a dream in which I was in a prison camp - and gradually realised that my skin colour was much darker there.

 

Someone in the camp broke a rule and I was punished instead.  I thought it most unfair.

 

When I awoke I asked my inner planes friends what that was about.  They replied:

 

"When someone in a group breaks the rules, it does not matter which member of the group receives the punishment"

 

More recently I have observed that karma follows lines of least resistance in the group.  The suffering falls on whichever members are convenient.

 

So I have stopped complaining about unfair events.

 

Is there a cosmic group to which Earth humanity belongs?   If so, we have to take whatever karma is most conveniently worked out upon us.  

 

 

And as it happens I am currently a party to a legal case when I certainly had no intent of runnning up against the much more powerful antagonist.  So, mentally I have written off a large lump of cash and mentally moved on.

 

 I must be more careful about joining groups with obvious karmic issues. 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Lairg

[Maddie]

29 minutes ago, Lairg said:

More recently I have observed that karma follows lines of least resistance in the group.  The suffering falls on whichever members are convenient.

 

This is not how karma worked according to the Buddha. The Buddha said everyone's the owner of their own deeds not someone else's.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

Speaking of the stages of enlightenment how can one objectively gauge themself? Sometimes there's reasons that I think I may be at a certain place but then again I'm always wary of delusion.

 

The moment of insight, or "awakening" isn't subtle. An experienced realized teacher can recognize it in a student, but it is really it is the what happens over a course of years that matters. Awakening itself isn't the complete understanding of no-self more often than not. It is the product of deepening and the dropping of more and more delusion. The insight deepens over time. Wisdom affects the character of the "person".  If you think you have gained insight, ask yourself if you can see the emptiness of things moment to moment. How does what you think you know change how you understand reality? If you understand "emptiness" what does this mean about "self"? "Space"? "Time"?

[stirling]

1 hour ago, LivingLight said:

If a part of oneself is engaged in ongoing harm upon self-other, wouldn't this part then hypothetically need ''annihilation''?

Ethics always seem to be foundational within any genuine religion.

If we define ego as that which is impure, that which can commit error then wouldn't it be fair to say that needs to be eliminated?

 

This would be akin to shooting the Santa at the mall to halt Christmas.

 

The "self" is an illusion. There is nothing to annihilate, there is just your belief in the story of your "self". Once "self" is seen through it is like unplugging an electric fan - the part that causes suffering begins to slowly grind to a halt, and the patterns of "self" generated by the effort to the thinking mind drop away because they are no longer being energized. 

 

Do you still choose a particular kind of ice cream, or music, or vacation? Yes, - only you know that it isn't "you" that chooses.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, LivingLight said:

In my ignorance and humiliated state of continued suffering, I realize that observable facts are the basis of any claim.

The nature of one's suffering can be observed. Through observation, we can achieve comprehension. Lastly, elimination (annihilation) is possible.

Who is the one that eliminates that which might be the cause of error? Different religions speak to this in different capacities, all of which I find interesting to study.

 

The place to start IS observation, but we aren't looking to establish a new story, theory, or cosmology for the universe.

 

Observation helps us to establish the facts. Meditation is the "laboratory" for that observation. Meditation is the place where we can come to see that what "we" are is not the "thinking mind", but instead, that which OBSERVES it. 

 

Ultimately NO-ONE eliminates anything. There IS no error, just a misunderstanding or belief that can be dispelled. Most non-dual traditions have slightly different practices and terminology, and occasionally create belief systems around the insight, but at its core there is usually deeper "absolute" layer where the insight IMHO is precisely the same. This is true in Buddhism, Daoism, Sufism, and the mystical traditions of Christianity and Judaism amongst others.

 

I find all of this fascinating too. 

[Lairg]

30 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

This is not how karma worked according to the Buddha. The Buddha said everyone's the owner of their own deeds not someone else's.

 

My observation is that group karma exists separately from personal karma - and can be dealt with separately

 

Mostly, establishing right relationship is sufficient for the Lipika Lords to entertain applications for removal

 

 

 

 

 

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

Speaking of the stages of enlightenment how can one objectively gauge themself? 

 

First stage enlightenment requires control of physical desires, emotional desires and mental thoughts.

 

You can observe your own behaviour for reaction and uncontrolled process.

 

Or if you can manage your consciousness at subplane level, you can test yourself on each subplane.

 

As a non-measurement exercise, it is useful to observe how large is the anchoring of cosmic light in the heart

 

 

[Maddie]

9 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

My observation is that group karma exists separately from personal karma - and can be dealt with separately

 

Mostly, establishing right relationship is sufficient for the Lipika Lords to entertain applications for removal

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well if the Lipika Lords say so that's good enough for me 😏

[LivingLight]

Juicy. I look forward to responding soon. Thanks and metta to all who do and do not read this 🕉️

[Mark Foote]

I like Shunryu Suzuki's comments, as reported by David Chadwick on his cuke.com site.  Maybe this is relevant?
 

After you know pretty well about your practice, you can do it alone, maybe. You can do it alone, but always you should have cross-contact with more mature practice. Because there is no definite, concrete way of practice. 

 

(Excerpt from Shunryu Suzuki lecture - 68-00-00-B - as found on shunryusuzuki.com)

 

My cross-contact is with the literature, these days, and every now and then a teacher whose lectures I used to attend shows up in my dreams.  That'll have to do, for now!

LivingLight, do you have a sitting practice?

[Vajra Fist]

On 28/02/2023 at 1:08 AM, Maddie said:

 

That was the view that led to the rise of Pureland and Nichiren Buddhism. It was called the age of dharma decline, or the later day of the law. 

 

Actually I don't think we're quite there, but almost. At the moment we're in a sort of golden age, where previously hidden teachings are spread widely, and householders have access to the methods of the monastics.

 

But I can see it heading that way. I just saw a headline - 'Can't meditate? Try mindful cooking'. You even have colouring books touted as offering the same benefits as meditation on the cushion.

 

I think when things are spread widely, there's always a chance that the teachings will become watered down as it becomes more mainstream. Meditation becomes a tool for worldly goals - get promoted at work, visualise prosperity. Even the goal of 'happiness', however laudable, isn't the purpose of the practice. 

 

This is why its important we still have authentic teachers from established lineages, so that the original message from the suttas is preserved. 

 

The age of dharma ending is to me the point at which that link with the past is lost - people stop knowing the purpose behind the Buddha's methods, and they become watered down to the point of ineffectiveness.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Vajra Fist

[Mark Foote]

12 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I think when things are spread widely, there's always a chance that the teachings will become watered down as it becomes more mainstream. Meditation becomes a tool for worldly goals - get promoted at work, visualise prosperity. Even the goal of 'happiness', however laudable, isn't the purpose of the practice. 

 

 

 

It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it.

 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, from “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, p 48)

 

I did talk something along those lines, in a recent post:

 

A friend responded to my last post:
 

I cannot see the connection to life, cleaning cat boxes, cooking, shopping, driving, bathing....

 

Let me try to make that connection explicit, here.

 

Gautama the Buddha said that he returned to “that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide” after he lectured, and that first characteristic is likely to be “one-pointedness of mind”....  “One-pointedness of mind” does seem like something one could strive to take into everyday life. 

 

... It’s possible to experience “one-pointedness of mind” and the movement of “one-pointed” mind in the body without experiencing a freedom of that movement in full.  I’ve written about the analogies Gautama provided for the cultivation of “one-pointedness of mind” (Common Ground), and I would say that it’s only in the concentration where the body is suffused with “purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind” that the mind really moves freely. Gautama pointed out that with that concentration, “determinate thought” in action of the body ceases, in particular volition that affects the movement of inhalation or exhalation ceases.

 

That doesn’t mean that action of the body can’t take place, only that the exercise of will or volition is not involved.  I have many times quoted a remark I heard Zen teacher Kobun Chino Otogawa make at the end of one of his lectures at the San Francisco Zen Center:

 

You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around.

 

If a person “takes the attitude of someone who… lets go of both hands and feet” (as Dogen instructed), then perhaps there will come a moment when the hands and feet walk around.  At that moment, there will be new meaning to be had in cleaning cat boxes, cooking, shopping, driving, and bathing, though these experiences might not involve the attitude that advances from the top of a 100-foot pole throughout.

 

Having said that, I have to add that it’s my belief that not every Zen teacher has experienced the zazen that gets up and walks around.  That doesn’t say that they haven’t experienced the cessation of volition in action of the body, or that they are not qualified to teach Zen, but I think they must have a different perspective on the relationship of practice to the actions of everyday life.

 

(Response to “Not the Wind, Not the Flag”)

 

 

Happiness was the hallmark of the meditative states Gautama taught, not the goal, as I'm sure you would agree, Vajra Fist.  The goal was the cessation of "determinate thought" in the action of speech, body, and mind, because it's the "determinate thought" or intention, good or bad, in the action that causes the action to condition the "rebirth of renewed consciousness".  The cessation of "determinate thought" in action is occasioned by the relinquishment of the identification of self with form, feeling, thought, habitual tendency, or consciousness (as Stirling emphasizes).

 

 The "watering down" of the wisdom teachings.  My approach has been to begin with the experience of the breath placing attention in the body, and shifting the placement of attention in the body, in the moment before falling asleep (Waking Up and Falling Asleep).   Kobun's right that nobody can believe that the location in space where attention is placed by the movement of breath can balance the activity of inhalation and exhalation without effort, until they experience it for themselves.   

 

As Shunryu Suzuki told Blanche Hartman:

 

Don’t ever think that you can sit zazen! That’s a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!

 

(“Interview with Blanche and Lou Hartman” 10/9/95, conducted by David  Chadwick–from cuke.com)

Edited March 4, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Maddie]

7 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

But I can see it heading that way. I just saw a headline - 'Can't meditate? Try mindful cooking'. You even have colouring books touted as offering the same benefits as meditation on the cushion.

 

Sand mandalas 

[Vajra Fist]

20 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Sand mandalas 

 

I don't know a great deal about their use in practice, but I would probably assume they were more to do with the stabilisation of a visualised mental object, to such an extent that one can depict it externally in the form of a piece of art. Rather than a meticulous form of artistic expression in itself. Could be wrong though.

[stirling]

On 3/1/2023 at 7:32 PM, Lairg said:

Is suffering an arbitrary function attached to humans and various animals?

 

Or is suffering part of a larger process?

 

Suffering is the result of lacking Wisdom (Prajna) about the nature of reality. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prajñā_(Buddhism)

 

Quote

More recently I have observed that karma follows lines of least resistance in the group.  The suffering falls on whichever members are convenient.

So I have stopped complaining about unfair events.

 

Suffering happens where there is attachment or aversion to what is happening in this moment. 

 

Seeing things as they really are alleviates suffering. 

 

Quote

Is there a cosmic group to which Earth humanity belongs?   If so, we have to take whatever karma is most conveniently worked out upon us.

 

There may be - but that would be a RELATIVE story about reality, not the absolute. 

[stirling]

14 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

Actually I don't think we're quite there, but almost. At the moment we're in a sort of golden age, where previously hidden teachings are spread widely, and householders have access to the methods of the monastics.

 

Absolutely.

 

Quote

But I can see it heading that way. I just saw a headline - 'Can't meditate? Try mindful cooking'. You even have colouring books touted as offering the same benefits as meditation on the cushion.

 

I see where you are going here, but I would just say that anyone who tries to just do meditation lite will discover that the process absolutely begin to bring up all of their unprocessed karma. The underlying reality in all moments is the absolute, and you can't hide it. We are always surrounded by dharma. It wants to come out.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Suffering is the result of lacking Wisdom (Prajna) about the nature of reality. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prajñā_(Buddhism)

 

 

Suffering happens where there is attachment or aversion to what is happening in this moment. 

 

Seeing things as they really are alleviates suffering. 

 

 

There may be - but that would be a RELATIVE story about reality, not the absolute. 

 

I understand the theory.   But when I compare the theory to my own experience of the Cosmos, the theory seems at best rather partial.

 

Perhaps Reality is not binary.

 

 

[stirling]

39 minutes ago, Lairg said:

I understand the theory.   But when I compare the theory to my own experience of the Cosmos, the theory seems at best rather partial.

 

Perhaps Reality is not binary.

My experience is that the Relative reality is binary (or infinitely variegated), but the Absolute is unity and is featureless.

 

So, sure, all of the appearances in consciousness, INCLUDING gods, planets, witches, ghosts, etc. etc. have a relative reality and can be experienced, BUT those appearances don't ultimately have a reality that is separate from anything else. Parsing what this means for reality as a whole is a daunting task, but suffice to say that the provisional reality that supernatural entities inhabit means that they are ultimately toothless, and no more in charge of anything than you are... which is not in charge at all. 

 

The theory of this isn't helpful, it is the experiential understanding we are after.

 

Feel free to ask me privately about this.

[stirling]

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

As Shunryu Suzuki told Blanche Hartman:

 

Don’t ever think that you can sit zazen! That’s a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!

 

(“Interview with Blanche and Lou Hartman” 10/9/95, conducted by David  Chadwick–from cuke.com)

 

Blanche is a lineage teacher for me. My first Zen teacher was Blanche's only transmitted teacher.  Blanche's teachings are greatly under utilized and poorly served by the single book extant. Nice to see her name-checked.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

the Absolute is unity and is featureless.

 

Does the Absolute experience Itself as featureless?

 

If so, how does manifested Existence occur?

 

[Maddie]

11 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Does the Absolute experience Itself as featureless?

 

If so, how does manifested Existence occur?

 

 

The Buddha didn't worry much about metaphysical questions. He was more concerned about suffering and the end of suffering.

[stirling]

Emptiness/Unity/One is the underlying quality of all appearances and is always present. The absolute doesn't experience "itself", it is the experiencing. It is a verb. 

 

The "relative", what you might think of a your "manifested existence" is like the water flowing from a fountain. It just continuously comes forth, but is non-dual so is only now and has no future or past, it has no subject/object qualities, and there is no real distance between "here" and "there", or "this" and "that". In this sense it is holographic, much like Indra's Net. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra's_net

 

or David's Bohm's Holographic Universe:

 

https://futurism.com/david-bohm-and-the-holographic-universe

 

Both of these are only pointers, only conceptual constructs. No conceptual contract (including Buddhism) properly represents this understanding completely, because the understanding itself cannot be modeled.

 

Quote

“The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

*Just to clarify this*

 

The understanding Emptiness/Unity/One as the underlying quality of all appearances, and the commensurate ability to see the moment to moment the truth of this understanding ARE enlightenment. It is completely possible to realize this in any moment, and see that it is how things are moment to moment. 

 

This insight reveals the empty/signless/aimless qualities of all observed phenomena, AND the underlying reality of EVERY dharma door regardless of the possible number.

Edited March 5, 2023 by stirling
Edited for clarity. :)