Into the Stream ~ A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening

[Maddie]

22 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

On High has various meanings depending upon one's religion or metaphysical science.

 

In some traditions the gods are very tall (giants/titans) with the oldest god being the tallest - the Most High.  In many societies it is statistically common to pay higher salaries to taller humans - since they are looked up to.   And royalty are often referred to as "your highness".

 

The alien gods traveled in craft such as the vimana and thus could see everything from above - the all-seeing eye.

 

In metaphysical science there are more subtle planes of Existence: physical, emotional, mental, buddhic, atmic, etc.   The more subtle planes have higher frequencies so that energies condensed from higher planes come from On High.

 

There are more possible meanings involving parallel timepaths 

 

 

 

The problem with these invisible non-confirmable external higher powers it's not only is there no way to prove they exist, even if they do who says they have things figured out any better than anybody else?

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

The problem with these invisible non-confirmable external higher powers it's not only is there no way to prove they exist, even if they do who says they have things figured out any better than anybody else?

 

It may be easier to consider the universe as a biological entity with meridian flows and Intent.  Are the gods then bacteria in the digestive system of the Universal Being?

 

Since humans can control their consciousness and unfold their spirituality, to which universal functions may humans aspire?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

16 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

It may be easier to consider the universe as a biological entity with meridian flows and Intent.  Are the gods then bacteria in the digestive system of the Universal Being?

 

Since humans can control their consciousness and unfold their spirituality, to which universal functions may humans aspire?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But this is just metaphysical speculation and even if it were true which I don't think it is this wouldn't be helpful for ending suffering or liberating the mind.

[Mark Foote]

Quote

•  
•  You might be more impressed then with the teachings of a Tibetan master - this is good stuff, IMHO:

https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/rongton/excellent-path-great-vehicle

 

...or, to bring it full circle and keep it Zen, how about a note from Mel Weitsman, teacher to both Blanche, dharma "godfather" to MY late teacher,  AND teacher to the amazing Norman Fischer:

 

https://berkeleyzencenter.org/dharma-talk/sojun-mel-weitsman-three-doors-of-liberation/

 

I agree - practices and conceptualizations are endless, I vow to forsake them! What are rafts for, when no-one listens anymore?

 

Kobun headed Jikoji where my teacher was a long time resident, and a couple of my personal teachers also resided and ran sesshin - Doug Jacobs, and Ian Forsberg. Jikoji is a magical place, and the dharma still flows strong there, whoever might be in charge.

 

Had a problem with the "quote" function on Dao Bums today, first time for everything..

Stirling, I looked at the link to the Tibetan teaching, but I didn't get very far.  Seemingly a long way away from the happiness I've experienced, which I think is pretty much the same as the happiness Gautama experienced, "apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind"--in his case, sitting "in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree" watching his father plow.

All that bullstuff about Gautama being the son of a king--I'm not the only one to have noticed that passage about Gautama watching his father plow the field, and kings didn't plow fields in Gautama's day, so far as I know.

 

If anybody wants to enter the stream, why not follow the founder's advice?  Have a seat, preferably on the roots of trees (or better, on a zafu), somewhere in the shade.  Maybe as it did to Gautama, the thought will occur, "‘Now could this be a way to awakening?’ Then, following on my mindfulness..., there was the consciousness: This is itself the Way to awakening." (MN 1 246-247, Vol I pg 301)

 

I'm afraid I gave up on Mel's lecture about ten minutes in.  I understand that for many, it's like Katagiri's book title said, "You Have to Say Something"--I just don't hear much of substance in the lectures of many modern teachers.  I really prefer to read transcripts (I can speed-read them).

 

I did hear your teacher Jana Draka speak, at Jikoji, and I admired her courage very much. 

 

I think I've offered you my recollection about my encounter with Mel before, but here it is again, just in case:  At the Berkeley Zendo.

My hope is that my description of cessation is now clear enough that I can find my way back to the experience regularly, and maybe even plant a seed with those who have not experienced it and therefore can't believe in it (as Kobun said would be the case).  

Gautama has given me a framework and a direction, and permission, as it were, to work on a way of living pegged to the regular experience of cessation (mostly in sitting, as he said it would be).  For me, that's "emptiness" that results directly in the "casting away" of any “latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body” (MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society III pg 68), and provides the light of that happiness Gautama described to my practice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Lairg]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

this is just metaphysical speculation

 

Some humans have direct experience.  They do experiments after they speculate on their experiences

 

It seems that not all humans are the same

 

 

 

 

[C T]

The idea in Buddhism is to experience each moment in the present, and then let go, just like a stream 'experiencing' only the flow...  ceaselessly, and adaptively. That's their nature. Whereas humans have a tendency to wonder, and be analytical about different terrains, be they physical, emotional, mental. This habit becomes even more pronounced when their curiosity begins to seep into the spiritual. They then gradually become mesmerised by the fascination these terrains hold, generating endless stories about them, and people get heavily involved discussing and debating their individual experiences of them, as if that was the goal. As if this was somehow an elevation of one's spirituality. Its not. 

 

Enlightenment is nothing; delusion is everything. 

 

 

[C T]

5 hours ago, C T said:

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by C T

[C T]

 

[Maddie]

7 hours ago, Lairg said:

It seems that not all humans are the same

 

True true 🤔🧐

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, C T said:

 

The idea in Buddhism is to experience each moment in the present, and then let go, just like a stream 'experiencing' only the flow...  ceaselessly, and adaptively. That's their nature. Whereas humans have a tendency to wonder, and be analytical about different terrains, be they physical, emotional, mental. This habit becomes even more pronounced when their curiosity begins to seep into the spiritual. They then gradually become mesmerised by the fascination these terrains hold, generating endless stories about them, and people get heavily involved discussing and debating their individual experiences of them, as if that was the goal. As if this was somehow an elevation of one's spirituality. Its not. 

 

Enlightenment is nothing; delusion is everything. 

 

 

 

I started that video, but had to stop.  Positive and substantive, something Gautama was and many since were not.

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, C T said:

 

 

I like the start of Jed's poem.  Got to 1:25 and whoops!--I know many people and some traditions and teachers speak about a space between the exhale and the inhale, but I don't find any such space.  

What I find is, that if I think there's a space between the exhale and the inhale, I've lost the role of the breath in consciousness.  The movement of breath can dictate the placement of attention, can dictate the openness of awareness, and the great benefit of seated meditation is that the facts of existence with regard to the breath come home in no uncertain terms.  

Yes, I can experience the role of attention and awareness without being conscious of the breath, in any given moment--a special sense of the presence of mind, and of the absence of "I am the doer, mine is the doer".  Temporarily lost if I have perceived a gap between the exhale and the inhale.  In particular, l've lost the presence of mind that allows the breath to place attention anywhere in the body, or in any sense--the placement that allows the breath to move autonomically.
 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

On 3/5/2023 at 12:40 AM, Lairg said:

 

It is not that the enlightened human has no volition.  It is that the enlightened human has no personal volition.

 

Agreed. 

 

This is the same realization as non-doership in Daoism (Wu Wei) and Advaita Vedanta. Its knowledge IS the non-dual realization. Exploring the larger implications of realizing that you aren't the doer is the way in. 

[stirling]

On 3/5/2023 at 6:20 AM, steve said:

Many scholars and purists would take issue with this and point out the differences. I'm more interested in the similarities as I find it supportive and instructive, as a practitioner, to see the common thread that runs through the core of different traditions; something that really comes alive when you have a certain degree of realization. That said I’ve never received any instruction in Zen or Chan other than from reading some scripture and poetry.

 

I share your interests, for sure. 

 

IMHO the differences are primarily with the relative teachings, but yes. I also think it is fine for people to safeguard the cultural aspects of practice for sure. 

 

Enlightenment itself is always acultural.

[Mark Foote]

On 3/6/2023 at 9:02 AM, stirling said:

 

This is the same realization as non-doership in Daoism (Wu Wei) and Advaita Vedanta. Its knowledge IS the non-dual realization. Exploring the larger implications of realizing that you aren't the doer is the way in. 

 

There is also direct experience of action taking place without conscious will or direction.  Not a realization as such, just total perplexion.  

I guess that might be an exploration of the "larger implications of realizing that you aren't the doer".

Gautama occasionally spoke of the ten-fold path, adding "right knowledge" and "right freedom" to the eight-fold path:   

 

As to this… right view comes first. And how … does right view come first? Right purpose… proceeds from right view, right speech proceeds from right purpose; right action proceeds from right speech; right mode of livelihood proceeds from right action; right endeavor proceeds from right mode of livelihood; right mindfulness proceeds from right endeavor; right concentration proceeds from right mindfulness; right knowledge proceeds from right concentration; right freedom proceeds from right knowledge. In this way the learner’s course is possessed of eight components, the perfected one’s of ten components.”

 

(MN III 71-78, Vol III pg 113-121)

 

"Right freedom" would seem to be connected to the cessation of "determinate thought" in action:

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.

 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 294)
 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.

 

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society IV pg 85)

"Right knowledge proceeds from right concentration"--since action of speech based on "determinate thought" ceases in the first concentration, action of the body based on "determinate thought" ceases in the fourth concentration, and action of mind (of "feeling and perceiving") based on "determinate thought" ceases in the final concentration, the "right knowledge" that Gautama referred to apparently is dependent on the experience of the cessation of will or intent in action (but not the cessation of action, per se)--so likewise the experience of "right freedom".

 

Maybe "right knowledge" is "perfect wisdom"?

 

Whatever… is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling… perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

(MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 68)

 

 

An odd juxtaposition, insight into the nature of the five groups and action in the "consciousness-informed" body.  The cessation of that action takes place in the fourth concentration,  after which Gautama in many lectures referenced the "fifth limb of concentration", the "survey-sign" of the concentration.

Can't get there except from here.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

There is also direct experience of action taking place without conscious will or direction.  Not a realization as such, just total perplexion.  

I guess that might be an exploration of the "larger implications of realizing that you aren't the doer".

 

I think, if doership has at least been called into question, then the chance for tumbling the whole charade is great. To be honest, I haven't met anyone that has teased apart doership and not had the whole contrivance fall down around them. I would put my primary focus on repeating this "state" and seeing if collapsing the view of "self" might be possible by this route.

 

Quote

Gautama occasionally spoke of the ten-fold path, adding "right knowledge" and "right freedom" to the eight-fold path:   

 

As to this… right view comes first. And how … does right view come first? Right purpose… proceeds from right view, right speech proceeds from right purpose; right action proceeds from right speech; right mode of livelihood proceeds from right action; right endeavor proceeds from right mode of livelihood; right mindfulness proceeds from right endeavor; right concentration proceeds from right mindfulness; right knowledge proceeds from right concentration; right freedom proceeds from right knowledge. In this way the learner’s course is possessed of eight components, the perfected one’s of ten components.”

(MN III 71-78, Vol III pg 113-121)

 

I recently read eminent Buddhist scholar Ken McLeod talking about the Eightfold Path and how it isn't meant to be achievable properly by one without insight, but should be considered entirely aspirational. (I'll be damned if I can find where this happened, as I'd love to share it... I may still!) 

 

The reason for this is "Right View": it is ONLY achievable with true insight. "Right View" IS Wisdom, or ("prajna"). The rest of the Eightfold Path happens when proper understanding of reality is there. So, with this in mind, "Right Knowledge" and "Right Freedom" begin to make more sense if we are adding them. 

 

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The Noble Eightfold Path is made up of Right View, Right Speech, Right Livelihood, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Thought, Right Action and Right Effort.

 

Right View is the insight that we have within us of the reality of life. Our insight, understanding, wisdom, knowledge, happiness, and the happiness of those around us depend very much on the degree of Right View that we have. That is why Buddhist practice always aims at helping us develop a deeper understanding of what is going on within us and around us.

 

Right View can be termed prajna. It can also be described as enlightenment, understanding, or wisdom. - Thich Nhat Hahn

 

https://www.parallax.org/mindfulnessbell/article/dharma-talk-the-eightfold-path-2/

[Mark Foote]

19 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The reason for this is "Right View": it is ONLY achievable with true insight. "Right View" IS Wisdom, or ("prajna"). The rest of the Eightfold Path happens when proper understanding of reality is there. So, with this in mind, "Right Knowledge" and "Right Freedom" begin to make more sense if we are adding them. 

 

My favorite version of the eight-fold path:
 

(Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).
 

Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified.
 

(Majjhima-Nikaya, Pali Text Society Vol III p 337-338)

 

 

And you're right, since that degree of detail in the experience of sense is only likely to emerge in circumstances like those Gautama described, in connection with his attainment of the final concentration:

 

“...The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152)

Edited March 11, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:36 PM, Mark Foote said:

My favorite version of the eight-fold path:
 

(Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).
 

Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified.

(Majjhima-Nikaya, Pali Text Society Vol III p 337-338)

 

That's good stuff. Very much like the Bahiya Sutta:

 

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"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." - Buddha, Bahiya Sutra

 

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html

 

"Knowing and seeing eye as it really is", and "In the seen will be merely what is seen" are the same thing, of course... seeing all appearances as having "no-self", or as "empty" of any intrinsic existence. 

 

Quote

 

And you're right, since that degree of detail in the experience of sense is only likely to emerge in circumstances like those Gautama described, in connection with his attainment of the final concentration:

 

“...The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152)

 

Actually, I'm going to disagree with you here. The Buddha's "final concentration" happens all the time to people. It isn't necessary to concentrate to see the deeper reality of emergent phenomena. In fact, to see the deepest layer of reality requires NO effort... requires noticing where there is efforting and dropping that contrivance wherever it is appearing. Surrendering to things as they are.

 

While, in the early stages of learning shikantazaa, some effort is often required to establish concentration, once (what the Tibetans would call) "the view" is established, it is all about letting go of any effort that establishes resting in the natural state of "open awareness". "Open Awareness"/shikantaza/dzogchen is both vipassana and samantha. This resting is the activity of ALL enlightened beings. It is no practice at all - it is ACTUALIZING enlightenment. This is what Dogen means when he says:

 

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To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.”

 

There are competent meditators all over the world that drop self and other and actualize enlightenment every day, millions of times a day, whether sitting on the cushion or just being astounded by the stillness of the forest or a rainbow. I'm sure you do it too. In those moments there IS no difference between that presence or the perfected Buddha. Enlightenment is just NOTICING this. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by stirling
I hate autocorrect. :)

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Actually, I'm going to disagree with you here. The Buddha's "final concentration" happens all the time to people. It isn't necessary to concentrate to see the deeper reality of emergent phenomena. In fact, to see the deepest layer of reality requires NO effort... requires noticing where there is efforting and dropping that contrivance wherever it is appearing. Surrendering to things as they are.

 

While, in the early stages of learning shikantazaa, some effort is often required to establish concentration, once (what the Tibetans would call) "the view" is established, it is all about letting go of any effort that establishes resting in the natural state of "open awareness". "Open Awareness"/shikantaza/dzogchen is both vipassana and samantha. This resting is the activity of ALL enlightened beings. It is no practice at all - it is ACTUALIZING enlightenment. This is what Dogen means when he says:
 

To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.”

 

There are competent meditators all over the world that drop self and other and actualize enlightenment every day, millions of times a day, whether sitting on the cushion or just being astounded by the stillness of the forest or a rainbow. I'm sure you do it too. In those moments there IS no difference between that presence or the perfected Buddha. Enlightenment is just NOTICING this. 

 

I like the Bahiya sermon you've quoted alright, but it is from Udāna, so from the Khuddaka Nikaya (which apparently was of later composition than the rest of the Nikayas--sort of like John versus the synoptic gospels, if I understand correctly). 

 

When you say that it's all about a realization, an insight into reality, seeing "the deepest layer of reality"--certainly, there's an echo of your "once 'the view' is established, it is all about letting go..." in Gautama's description of his enlightenment experience:

 

…[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: 'Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 151-152)

 

That text immediately precedes the part I quoted before, about "there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”  So yes, apparently Gautama attained the cessation of determinate thought in "feeling and perceiving", and then saw that "whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping", a thought that catalyzed his arrival at the six sensory fields as the sole disturbance.

I will differ with you on what it is that competent meditators the world over are actualizing.  It's possible to experience the cessation of determinate thought in action of the body, to let the movement of breath place attention in such a fashion as to make the activity of the body in the movement of breath an autonomic function, without experiencing the cessation of determinate thought in "feeling and perceiving".  There's a reason Gautama's two teachers never attained the cessation of determinate thought in "feeling and perceiving", but it's not necessary to attain that final concentration to allow zazen to sit zazen.

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Lairg]

On 3/7/2023 at 1:53 AM, Mark Foote said:

teachers speak about a space between the exhale and the inhale, but I don't find any such space.  

 

The space is not physical but rather metaphysical.   Put your attention in the turning of the tide of the inhale energy and perhaps you may find the "space"

 

So close eyes, breath in gently - not too deeply, hold breath and look/feel out into the cosmos.  Does your energy change?

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Lairg

[Mark Foote]

14 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

The space is not physical but rather metaphysical.   Put your attention in the turning of the tide of the inhale energy and perhaps you may find the "space"

 

So close eyes, breath in gently - not too deeply, hold breath and look/feel out into the cosmos.  Does your energy change?

 

 

Let the movement of breath place attention, and you may find there's no "space" (between the exhale and the inhale).

My approach to what Gautama taught, both with regard to concentration and with regard to what he termed "a pleasant way of living, besides" (the four arisings of mindfulness):
 

... As to the initial induction of concentration, Gautama declared that “making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind”.
 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought.  For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind.  I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.

(Response to “Not the Wind, Not the Flag”)
 

With regard to "breath in gently - not too deeply, hold breath and look/feel out into the cosmos"--I realize there's a whole body of teaching in India, if not elsewhere, concerning pranayama (altering the breath as a form of exercise, in aid of health and meditation).  When the doctor advises me to work with devices to exercise the lungs, I will do that, but when I sit, my aim is the relinquishment of habit/volition from the in-breath through the out-breath, and from the out-breath through the in-breath.

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

With regard to "breath in gently - not too deeply, hold breath and look/feel out into the cosmos"

 

I had never tried experiencing the space between breaths, but when I had a go after reading your post, several times there was an intake of cosmic energy just after the in-breath stopped.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Lairg

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

I had never tried experiencing the space between breaths, but when I had a go after reading your post, several times there was an intake of cosmic energy just after the in-breath stopped.

 

Far be it from me to discourage the intake of cosmic energy! 

Here's a description from koun Franz, a Zen teacher I respect in Halifax, Canada, that speaks to the placement of the mind--from my post, The Early Record:
 

“One-pointedness of mind” could mean the steady focus of attention on some particular object, as Zen teacher koun Franz outlined:

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’.

 

(“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

However, a steady focus of attention on some particular object is not the only way to interpret “place your mind here”:

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

 

(Ibid)

 

Most people can concentrate their attention on their hands, and they don’t need to make self-surrender the object of their thought in order to do so. However, as koun Franz pointed out, some surrender of personal agency is required in order for “the base of consciousness” to shift location.

 

Some surrender of personal agency, as in “making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind.”

Another way to see the mind move is to exercise a little presence of mind in falling asleep:
 

In my experience, the practice is the same, whether I am waking up or falling asleep: when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate.

... Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move.

(Waking Up and Falling Asleep)

Edited March 14, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

22 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I like the Bahiya sermon you've quoted alright, but it is from Udāna, so from the Khuddaka Nikaya (which apparently was of later composition than the rest of the Nikayas--sort of like John versus the synoptic gospels, if I understand correctly).

 

I not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that the message in it not obviously the same as your "Majjhima-Nikaya, Pali Text Society Vol III"? Are you discounting the Bahiya Sutra because it isn't somehow as authentic as the other Tripitaka Buddhist documents?

 

Quote

When you say that it's all about a realization, an insight into reality, seeing "the deepest layer of reality"--certainly, there's an echo of your "once 'the view' is established, it is all about letting go..." in Gautama's description of his enlightenment experience:

…[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: 'Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 151-152)

 

Yes. It's seemingly about the realization of impermanence.

 

Quote

That text immediately precedes the part I quoted before, about "there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”  So yes, apparently Gautama attained the cessation of determinate thought in "feeling and perceiving", and then saw that "whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping", a thought that catalyzed his arrival at the six sensory fields as the sole disturbance.

 

I think it's more clear here:

 

Quote

Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was staying at Uruvela, beside the river Nerañjara at the foot of the Bodhi Tree, having just realized full enlightenment. At that time the Lord sat cross-legged for seven days experiencing the bliss of liberation. Then, at the end of those seven days, the Lord emerged from that concentration and gave well-reasoned attention during the first watch of the night to dependent arising in forward order, thus:

 

This being, that is;
from the arising of this, that arises.

 

That is: 

with ignorance as condition, volitional activities come to be;
with volitional activities as condition, consciousness comes to be;
with consciousness as condition, name-and-form comes to be;
with name-and-form as condition, the sixfold base comes to be;
with the sixfold base as condition, contact comes to be;
with contact as condition, feeling comes to be;
with feeling as condition, craving comes to be;
with craving as condition, grasping comes to be;
with grasping as condition, being comes to be;
with being as condition, birth comes to be;
with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be.
This is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance:

When things become manifest To the ardent meditating brahman, All his doubts then vanish since he understands Each thing along with its cause.

 

- Buddha, Bodhi Sutta: The Bodhi Tree

 

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.01.irel.html

 

My bold here:

 

Ignorance is not understanding the true nature of reality, and insight into no-self. "Volitional activities" come to be because of belief in a separate self, or objects with intrinsic existence. You can stop there. Insight into no-self is the cure. 

 

Quote

I will differ with you on what it is that competent meditators the world over are actualizing.  It's possible to experience the cessation of determinate thought in action of the body, to let the movement of breath place attention in such a fashion as to make the activity of the body in the movement of breath an autonomic function, without experiencing the cessation of determinate thought in "feeling and perceiving".  There's a reason Gautama's two teachers never attained the cessation of determinate thought in "feeling and perceiving", but it's not necessary to attain that final concentration to allow zazen to sit zazen.

 

Even if you don't have insight, "zazen sits zazen" because there is no "self" sitting it. "Zazen gets up and walks around" because there is no "self" getting up and walking around. These are intentional koans. They are teachings from enlightened beings. It is impossible to sit zazen if it is an activity "you" are doing. It isn't a matter of getting the right sequence of events in place. When your mind is quiet and empty you have arrived at the heart of the matter, meditation or not. Even just pondering these ideas could be enough to awaken someone, which is why anyone would say such things in the first place.

 

Years ago at a sesshin when I asked Kobun's transmitted student and abbot of Hokoji, teacher Ian Forsberg, "What is is the difference between quiet empty mind in shikantazaa and enlightened mind", his answer was, "No difference." 

 

Slightly off topic: Do you believe that there are enlightened teachers in the world right now?

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, stirling said:

Slightly off topic: Do you believe that there are enlightened teachers in the world right now?

 

Probably, but the elimination of ego would make discovering these people very difficult, because they would most likely feel no need to proclaim this to anyone. 

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

As below!
 

 

I not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that the message in it not obviously the same as your "Majjhima-Nikaya, Pali Text Society Vol III"? Are you discounting the Bahiya Sutra because it isn't somehow as authentic as the other Tripitaka Buddhist documents?

I'm saying the voice in many of the sermons in Khuddaka doesn't quite sound quite like the voice in the first four Nikayas.  Even the voice of the chief disciple, Sariputta, in speeches in the first four Nikayas approved by the Gautamid himself, doesn't sound like Gautama to me, as far as what he has to say.  That's only to be expected, but I find many of the speeches attributed to Gautama in the first four Nikayas resonate with me, somehow.  And I don't trust the later compositions, from my experience with them so far.

 

Yes. It's seemingly about the realization of impermanence.

 

I think it's more clear here:  (Stirling quoted a sutta, see his post, above)

You really like that Udana!  I have no quarrel with the recantation of dependent causation here, but the rest of this account is slightly overblown, IMHO.  

 

Ignorance is not understanding the true nature of reality, and insight into no-self. "Volitional activities" come to be because of belief in a separate self, or objects with intrinsic existence. You can stop there. Insight into no-self is the cure. 

Ignorance is the ignorance of what is, volitional activities come out of that, IMHO.

 

Even if you don't have insight, "zazen sits zazen" because there is no "self" sitting it. "Zazen gets up and walks around" because there is no "self" getting up and walking around. These are intentional koans. They are teachings from enlightened beings. It is impossible to sit zazen if it is an activity "you" are doing. It isn't a matter of getting the right sequence of events in place. When your mind is quiet and empty you have arrived at the heart of the matter, meditation or not. Even just pondering these ideas could be enough to awaken someone, which is why anyone would say such things in the first place.

"Zazen sits zazen" when the activity of the body in the movement of breath follows autonomically from exactly where I sense myself to be, from one moment to the next.  The idea of "not self" is in the head, but the place where I sense myself to be is where I am when I detach from thought.  That place can sit, as a part of the movement of breath, with the whole body contributing.

 

Years ago at a sesshin when I asked Kobun's transmitted student and abbot of Hokoji, teacher Ian Forsberg, "What is is the difference between quiet empty mind in shikantazaa and enlightened mind", his answer was, "No difference." 

According to Gautama, the thinking mind, as one of the six senses, remains a regular "disturbance" even when volition in "feeling and perceiving" has ceased. 

Gautama said he returned to "that state of concentration in which I constantly abide" after he spoke.  Although he apparently arrived at the cessation of volition in the activity of in-breathing and out-breathing regularly, I gather that he then used the survey-sign of the concentration to return to that cessation as necessary and was satisfied to apply and sustain thought in the four arisings most of the time--he described a particular course of thoughts applied and sustained in the four arisings as his way of living (both before and after his enlightenment).

At times allowing the place where I am, and the contact in the senses experienced in the place where I am, to sit requires relaxation, calm, detachment, and presence.  Most of the time.  Some of the time it's effortless.  Maybe that's the stage of the practice I'm in, but I suspect it will always take me a while to settle in.

The quiet empty mind--"... Not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind" in shikantaza, I won't disagree with that.

 

Slightly off topic: Do you believe that there are enlightened teachers in the world right now?

If you're asking me do I think that all the lineage holders are enlightened, I don't think that's a requirement, to be a lineage holder.  If you're asking me have I met any enlightened teachers, I don't think so, but that hasn't kept some teachers from being a life-long influence on me.