The Foundation of Cultivation (read with a grain of salt)

[Cobie]

 

8 minutes ago, Antares said:

… term for "chakra"? …

 

脈輪 mài lún - chakra  

 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Cobie

[Antares]

22 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

脈輪 mài lún - chakra  

 

and what's next should one do? Concentration, visualization, mantek chia breath methods... right?

[Master Logray]

Stilling the mind is the centre of the issue.    But chakra and dan tiens are not mind constructs.  They have physical locations and properties.     Working with the mind alone is seldom successful from experiences across traditions and centuries.   Working with the body (like chakra and dan tien) usually produce more concrete results, yet these cultivation methods lead a person away from stilling the mind. 

[Lairg]

I was educated in the one true religion.   Unfortunately I lost the faith.   I wonder where I put it.

 

 

[Blissdao9]

12 hours ago, Antares said:

 

I dont know your method but it sounds like new age approach. That means a method which one thinks should work but it is not real attainment. But I personally understand what you are talking about but I just disagree with it. Also any authentic daoist will disagree with this too. Read the article below: 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_shangde_xiade.html

 

So what you sugget is non doing but having inferior virture. This does not work this way. New Age authors who publish books these days suggest such methods. But these are just wrong methods which wont work for anyone without authentic daoist cultivation for "building the foundation". Building the foundation is the first important step in daoist internal arts which one cant skip and it implies very specific methods and internal transformations (of energy)  

 

I apologize if I was not clear in my post. Let me clarify a few things:

1. I offer no methods. I only seek to discuss the nature of things.

2. I do not suggest that these qualities are missing from within us. In fact, I stated that we simply need to come in touch with these qualities. In many cases of societies today, people have lost touch with the intricacies within. Hence, this post intended to bring attention to these particular qualities.

3. Non-doing. I am aware of the philosophy. Hence, I mentioned "Divine Intelligence" and "return to one's true nature."

4. One seeks by not seeking. I do not disagree with this. 

[Blissdao9]

11 hours ago, Antares said:

 

Chakras have no relation to dantien. All people have chakras but a minor amount of them have LDT. Also ordinary people dont have LDT. It must be cultivated. And this is not a psychological trick or anything of this sort. One cant get it just with intent or by practising celibacy. But celibacy helps to keep heart-mind more centered and balanced. That' true. This is just preriquisite for building the foundation stage.

 

This is post heaven qi you breath in. No real dantien, no transformation here. But it might be good for general health support.  

 

I would disagree with you on that Chakras have no relations to the dantian. Although they are terminology from different systems, they are two different ways of looking at the same internal system. For example, The manipakura when unlocked can draw in energy; it is also the energy center of the entire system. One of the dantian functions is to store and refine energies for the system as a gathering point. 

 

I agree that the LDT is not only formed from celibacy. From my personal experience, practicing celibacy provides the resources and opportunity for LDT development. For example, sexual energy is very potent, so one can refine this energy for the dantian, vitalize and increase the overall intensity of the system, discipline the mind and body, and push for new breakthroughs.

[Blissdao9]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Stilling the mind is the centre of the issue.    But chakra and dan tiens are not mind constructs.  They have physical locations and properties.     Working with the mind alone is seldom successful from experiences across traditions and centuries.   Working with the body (like chakra and dan tien) usually produce more concrete results, yet these cultivation methods lead a person away from stilling the mind. 

They work in tandem, mind, body, energy, spirit. One cannot stabilize at higher intensities without the other. A still mind is a great resource to have when working on the body, as one will make significantly more progress in comparison. 

 

If the method leads a person from stilling the mind, that means that either the cultivation method is flawed or the mind is not stable enough to handle the process.

[Lairg]

It may be useful to consider that stilling the personality mind may allow entry to the Cosmic Mind.

 

What great intentions might be manifested when the human is permitted to work within the Cosmic Mind?

 

But is that the heart of human unfoldment?

 

  

[Taoist Texts]

19 hours ago, Antares said:

Also ordinary people dont have LDT. It must be cultivated.

something non-existent must be cultivated. that makes total sense.

[EFreethought]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

something non-existent must be cultivated. that makes total sense.

 

One of my instructors said that people do not start out w/dan tiens, but that we create them by doing qigong/meditation.

 

[Taoist Texts]

22 minutes ago, EFreethought said:

 

One of my instructors said that people do not start out w/dan tiens, but that we create them by doing qigong/meditation.

 

i know. lots of well-intended people think that something can be created out of nothing. they look surprised when they try and get nothing instead of something.

[Antares]

10 hours ago, Blissdao9 said:

1. I offer no methods. I only seek to discuss the nature of things.

2. I do not suggest that these qualities are missing from within us. In fact, I stated that we simply need to come in touch with these qualities. In many cases of societies today, people have lost touch with the intricacies within. Hence, this post intended to bring attention to these particular qualities.

 

Alright, but you should be more precise about your ideas of how to nurture these qualities. We need to consider such notions as xin and Xing, what is the mind, what is the Spirit and where  stillness and All-inclusiveness come from, how to nurture these qualities. I agree with you that we all have it already within us but the matter is in real quality of it. But many people who read DDJ for example, think that one needs just to relax and flow (or follow) with Dao and these qualities you are talking about will just reveal themselves. That what I disagree with. But partially I agree with you since we should cultivate these qualities within us. But without certain methods it wont work and I wanted to stress the importance of correct methods at the "laying the foundation" stage

[Antares]

10 hours ago, Blissdao9 said:

I would disagree with you on that Chakras have no relations to the dantian. Although they are terminology from different systems, they are two different ways of looking at the same internal system. For example, The manipakura when unlocked can draw in energy; it is also the energy center of the entire system. One of the dantian functions is to store and refine energies for the system as a gathering point. 

 

It is not the same internal system. We all have channels but Indian and Chinese systems look differently at it. And this is not good idea to mix them. The dantien means "the field of elixir" and this is not the manipura chakra. Chakra is just a spot where channels intersect and the state of chakra depends on the state of channels. That's all. But what is "elixir" in Indian system and what is "field"? They have not only different terminology but their approaches differ. Indian system has been corrupted greatly so I would not use its terminology at all.   It is just pointless 

[Lairg]

19 minutes ago, Antares said:

Chakra is just a spot where channels intersect and the state of chakra depends on the state of channels.

 

That is not my experience across quite a number of humans

 

 

[Antares]

3 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

That is not my experience across quite a number of humans

 

And what is the chakra in your experience?

[Antares]

1 hour ago, EFreethought said:

 

One of my instructors said that people do not start out w/dan tiens, but that we create them by doing qigong/meditation.

 

Qigong can create "false dantien" only. That only means that some postheaven channels would work better. and this may produce some sensations but this is not real dantien.  

Edited March 17, 2023 by Antares

[Gerard]

On 15/3/2023 at 6:51 PM, Antares said:

But what is your method to attain the "Stillness, Emptiness, and All-Inclusiveness"?

 

 

 

 

Hard work not "ethereal words" written or spoken.

 

Grounding like you have never experienced before because our society is very UNGROUNDED. I started like that too, decades of study and living disconnected from the internal organs like most humans.

 

This is a good start:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Gui_(martial_artist)

 

Read his biography.

 

"...rigorous approach to training with a heavy emphasis on developing extraordinary lower leg strength."

 

AMEN!!

 

For the rest of your life or else you risk becoming ungrounded and engaged in enlightenment and chakras talk. 

 

Note: you are already ENLIGHTENED; let's find out HOW. 

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Gerard

[Antares]

9 minutes ago, Gerard said:

"...rigorous approach to training with a heavy emphasis on developing extraordinary lower leg strength."

Yes, legs strength is very important but it can be just physical strengthening so it depends on details of training. Bagua is quite alchemical system though. It is not only about legs training I would say   

[Lairg]

51 minutes ago, Antares said:

And what is the chakra in your experience?

 

There is a vortex of elemental energy - therefore intelligent - that coordinates the internal functioning of that energy body (e.g. etheric, emotional, lower mental)

 

The vortex typically is used by a lesser deva (nature spirit) to achieve external functions e.g. search for food

 

Some chakras have higher devas in order to handle incoming energies e.g. cosmic.

 

Where there is excessive trauma or toxicity the devas may abandon the elemental.  This is relatively common e.g. severe autism and severe dementia

 

Much trauma can be healed by sending light from the human heart.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Lairg

[mcoolio]

On 3/16/2023 at 9:54 AM, Lairg said:

Eventually I understood that close relationships with women was part of my work

 

Interesting. How can close relationships be part of someone's work?

[Lairg]

7 hours ago, mcoolio said:

 How can close relationships be part of someone's work?

 

As far as I have seen manifested Existence operates in three phases:

 

- learning to manage energy and intelligence

- learning relationships so that the aspects of Existence can fit together to form greater entities/systems

- using those greater entities/systems to achieve higher purpose.

 

It seems that this solar system is in the second stage so that right relationship is the primary task.   When sufficient species are in right relationship (internally and externally), the collective (solar system) may be strong enough to withstand being used by Divine Intent.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Lairg

[Blissdao9]

14 hours ago, Antares said:

It is not the same internal system. We all have channels but Indian and Chinese systems look differently at it. And this is not good idea to mix them. The dantien means "the field of elixir" and this is not the manipura chakra. Chakra is just a spot where channels intersect and the state of chakra depends on the state of channels. That's all. But what is "elixir" in Indian system and what is "field"? They have not only different terminology but their approaches differ. Indian system has been corrupted greatly so I would not use its terminology at all.   It is just pointless 

You have misunderstood. The "body and energy system" is constant. I did not imply that different systems should be mixed. All I said is that they are related. Learning from one system, Indian for example, and its fundamentals can bring greater understanding of the human system as a whole. Greater comprehension can then be utilized for training in another system. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Blissdao9

[Blissdao9]

15 hours ago, Antares said:

 

Alright, but you should be more precise about your ideas of how to nurture these qualities. We need to consider such notions as xin and Xing, what is the mind, what is the Spirit and where  stillness and All-inclusiveness come from, how to nurture these qualities. I agree with you that we all have it already within us but the matter is in real quality of it. But many people who read DDJ for example, think that one needs just to relax and flow (or follow) with Dao and these qualities you are talking about will just reveal themselves. That what I disagree with. But partially I agree with you since we should cultivate these qualities within us. But without certain methods it wont work and I wanted to stress the importance of correct methods at the "laying the foundation" stage

My aim was not to present methods to nurture these qualities. It was an attempt to bring attention to them and the essence of cultivation. 

 

I do not disagree that methods can help in the foundation stage. The general message of the post was that methods can only take us so far. If one were looking for a "how to get started" guide, then this post is probably not the right fit.

 

 

Hence, let me clarify again. Methods will not necessarily create the essence, but the essence will eventually create the method.

 

I might make post to share methods. However, I think that this is dangerous, because in many cases, the method presented can either truly help or great limit the practitioner. If I were to share my methods, they would need much time and effort to be reviewed.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Blissdao9

[Blissdao9]

16 hours ago, EFreethought said:

 

One of my instructors said that people do not start out w/dan tiens, but that we create them by doing qigong/meditation.

 

I think it depends on which definition of the Dantian that is being used. 

[Blissdao9]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

As far as I have seen manifested Existence operates in three phases:

 

- learning to manage energy and intelligence

- learning relationships so that the aspects of Existence can fit together to form greater entities/systems

- using those greater entities/systems to achieve higher purpose.

 

It seems that this solar system is in the second stage so that right relationship is the primary task.   When sufficient species are in right relationship (internally and externally), the collective (solar system) may be strong enough to withstand being used by Divine Intent.

 

 

Interesting. Would you mind sharing your progress so far in your cultivation journey?