Moral Truth.

[Nungali]

On 3/26/2023 at 10:37 PM, wandelaar said:

 

Why do you even call yourself helpfuldemon, when all you do here is posting fallacies and non sequiturs?

 

I think I asked him that after his 4th post .

 

But you know what demons are like  .... you never get a straight answer off them  

 

On 3/26/2023 at 10:37 PM, wandelaar said:

 

If it were so that wisdom or experience doesn't play any role in what people do, than Taoism, spirituality, or even posting here on The Dao Bums would be completely pointless and a waste of time. Unless of course you like trolling and/or debating for the fun of it. But that wouldn't be very helpful, would it? 

 

Well, even I would not go that far ...  you might not realise 'poor old HD' suffers psychiatric problems , is tortured by God, thinks he is a high initiate, seems somehow fixated on Crowley, does not think ... he never thinks, just sits there blank ... due to the wires inserted into his brain and body .... no, I am not being a bitch, these are all things he has admitted himself .

 

It seems to be the 'will' of daobums to allow all this    < shrug>

[stirling]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Its an old principle that Crowley adopted and does not originate with him ... as you probably realize .  A lot of his stuff  comes from ancient Zoroastrianism and other sources .  The idea of 'True Will' as you rightly outlined has come to us 'down the ages' in many forms and philosophies .   All this has been communicated and explained to our confused friend HD here .

 

But he ain't gonna let that 'stand in his way' .    

 

The subject/object delusion is somehow VERY convincing. 

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The subject/object delusion is somehow VERY convincing. 

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

I'm just waiting for someone to use a criminal defense of religious liberty from Do What Thou Wilt.

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I'm just waiting for someone to use a criminal defense of religious liberty from Do What Thou Wilt.

 

You will be waiting a long time then .  Since the 'Thelemic code' never made it to a religious status , let alone a theocracy. In any case it is way to far undefined to actually direct behavior , that only comes from individuals interpretation, as you may now realize ..

 

And since it has an 'in built self destruct system' it can never go to  organized religion or theocracy, because if it did, it would have to follow the book ... and its commentary , which says it is forbidden to even talk about the books meaning ,

 

So no, stop fearing that HD as it will never happen .

 

However there have been some cases of 'defense of religious liberty ' where people in the actual organizations  involved with Thelema have successfully prosecuted others for making claims against them similar to some of the claims you have made here  against the system .  But the system itself is not and can not be an organization   as it has a 'self - cancellation ' clause embedded in it .

[helpfuldemon]

Anyway.... my point was that Thelema has no moral code, as can be seen by the freedom to rob and slay.  The Law is Do What Thou Wilt, and that is the end of it.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

Anyway.... my point was that Thelema has no moral code, as can be seen by the freedom to rob and slay.  The Law is Do What Thou Wilt, and that is the end of it.

 

Properly understood, Do What Thou Wilt IS a moral code. It is the freedom to see things as they are. 

 

An example: If you suddenly understood that the entire fabric of your experiences loved you, could never harm you, and was inseparable from what you are, do you think the desire to hurt it would truly arise? If you understood the everything you could need or want had always been provided, would you feel the need to steal?

 

Wisdom (prajna), or understanding emptiness is the same understanding as "Do What Thou Wilt", just as being aligned with the Dao is. This understanding constitutes a morality superior to any list of subject/object do's and dont's.

 

It doesn't make any sense if you think you are a "self" in a world of "others". If THAT was its context, you would be right, but that would constitute a misunderstanding.

[Lairg]

"directly from Latin moralis "proper behavior of a person in society," literally "pertaining to manners," "

https://www.etymonline.com/word/moral

 

Thus morality is the well mannered behavior in that society - but not necessarily in other societies.   Morality is relative not absolute

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Lairg

[Nungali]

On 4/5/2023 at 7:39 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Anyway.... my point was that Thelema has no moral code, as can be seen by the freedom to rob and slay.  The Law is Do What Thou Wilt, and that is the end of it.

 

No it isnt  ... you cant  be repeatedly wrong,  as pointed out by multiple other opinions , give up, go back to your original position and stand firmly with a  ....

 

" Is so !  "    or     " Is   not ! "

 

Thats very immature .

 

Here  are  some   morals selected at random from merely one Thelemic  instructional  document :

 

Dont condemn others , be humble, dont mock and revile , do good unto others for its own sake , do not abuse, abase , violate or force the spirits,  do not blaspheme another's God .   * 

 

I can also extract a few more simple lists  for you to follow if you have trouble finding them in the Thelemic documents you have claimed to read .

 

 

*

 

Spoiler

0. Learn first — Oh thou who aspirest unto our ancient Order! — that Equilibrium is the basis of the Work. If thou thyself hast not a sure foundation, whereon wilt thou stand to direct the forces of Nature?

1. Know then, that as man is born into this world amidst the Darkness of Matter, and the strife of contending forces; so must his first endeavour be to seek the Light through their reconciliation.

2. Thou then, who hast trials and troubles, rejoice because of them, for in them is Strength, and by their means is a pathway opened unto that Light.

3. How should it be otherwise, O man, whose life is but a day in Eternity, a drop in the Ocean of time; how, were thy trials not many, couldst thou purge thy soul from the dross of earth?
Is it but now that the Higher Life is beset with dangers and difficulties; hath it not ever been so with the Sages and Hierophants of the past? They have been persecuted and reviled, they have been tormented of men; yet through this also has their Glory increased.

4. Rejoice therefore, O Initiate, for the greater thy trial the greater thy Triumph. When men shall revile thee, and speak against thee falsely, hath not the Master said, “Blessed art thou!”?

5. Yet, oh aspirant, let thy victories bring thee not Vanity, for with increase of Knowledge should come increase of Wisdom. He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much hath learned his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool, than of him.

6. Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldest have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?

7. Thou therefore who desirest Magical Gifts, be sure that thy soul is firm and steadfast; for it is by flattering thy weaknesses that the Weak Ones will gain power over thee. Humble thyself before thy Self, yet fear neither man not spirit. Fear is failure, and the forerunner of failure: and courage is the beginning of virtue.

8. Therefore fear not the Spirits, but be firm and courteous with them; for thou hast no right to despise or revile them; and this too may lead thee astray. Command and banish them, curse them by the Great Names if need be; but neither mock nor revile them, for so assuredly wilt thou be lead into error.

9. A man is what he maketh himself within the limits fixed by his inherited destiny; he is a part of mankind; his actions affect not only what he calleth himself, but also the whole universe.

10. Worship and neglect not, the physical body which is thy temporary connection with the outer and material world. Therefore let thy mental Equilibrium be above disturbance by material events; strengthen and control the animal passions, discipline the emotions and the reason, nourish the Higher Aspirations.

11. Do good unto others for its own sake, not for reward, not for gratitude from them, not for sympathy. If thou art generous, thou wilt not long for thine ears to be tickled by expressions of gratitude.

12. Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. Act passionately; think rationally; be Thyself.

13. True ritual is as much action as word; it is Will.

14. Remember that this earth is but an atom in the universe, and that thou thyself art but an atom thereon, and that even couldst thou become the God of this earth whereon thou crawlest and grovellest, that thou wouldest, even then, be but an atom, and one amongst many.

15. Nevertheless have the greatest self-respect, and to that end sin not against thyself. The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices.

16. To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

17. Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that “the thought of foolishness is sin.” Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?

18. Therefore, as hath already been said, Establish thyself firmly in the equilibrium of forces, in the centre of the Cross of the Elements, that Cross from whose centre the Creative Word issued in the birth of the Dawning Universe.

19. Be thou therefore prompt and active as the Sylphs, but avoid frivolity and caprice; be energetic and strong like the Salamanders, but avoid irritability and ferocity; be flexible and attentive to images like the Undines, but avoid idleness and changeability; be laborious and patient like the Gnomes, but avoid grossness and avarice.

20. So shalt thou gradually develop the powers of thy soul, and fit thyself to command the Spirits of the elements. For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee.

21. In the true religion there is no sect, therefore take heed that thou blaspheme not the name by which another knoweth his God; for if thou do this thing in Jupiter thou wilt blaspheme יהוה and in Osiris יהשוה. Ask and ye shall have! Seek, and ye shall find! Knock, and it shall be opened unto you!

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Nungali

[helpfuldemon]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Dont condemn others , be humble, dont mock and revile , do good unto others for its own sake , do not abuse, abase , violate or force the spirits,  do not blaspheme another's God .   * 

 

 

 

 

*

 

  Reveal hidden contents

0. Learn first — Oh thou who aspirest unto our ancient Order! — that Equilibrium is the basis of the Work. If thou thyself hast not a sure foundation, whereon wilt thou stand to direct the forces of Nature?

1. Know then, that as man is born into this world amidst the Darkness of Matter, and the strife of contending forces; so must his first endeavour be to seek the Light through their reconciliation.

2. Thou then, who hast trials and troubles, rejoice because of them, for in them is Strength, and by their means is a pathway opened unto that Light.

3. How should it be otherwise, O man, whose life is but a day in Eternity, a drop in the Ocean of time; how, were thy trials not many, couldst thou purge thy soul from the dross of earth?
Is it but now that the Higher Life is beset with dangers and difficulties; hath it not ever been so with the Sages and Hierophants of the past? They have been persecuted and reviled, they have been tormented of men; yet through this also has their Glory increased.

4. Rejoice therefore, O Initiate, for the greater thy trial the greater thy Triumph. When men shall revile thee, and speak against thee falsely, hath not the Master said, “Blessed art thou!”?

5. Yet, oh aspirant, let thy victories bring thee not Vanity, for with increase of Knowledge should come increase of Wisdom. He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much hath learned his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool, than of him.

6. Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldest have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?

7. Thou therefore who desirest Magical Gifts, be sure that thy soul is firm and steadfast; for it is by flattering thy weaknesses that the Weak Ones will gain power over thee. Humble thyself before thy Self, yet fear neither man not spirit. Fear is failure, and the forerunner of failure: and courage is the beginning of virtue.

8. Therefore fear not the Spirits, but be firm and courteous with them; for thou hast no right to despise or revile them; and this too may lead thee astray. Command and banish them, curse them by the Great Names if need be; but neither mock nor revile them, for so assuredly wilt thou be lead into error.

9. A man is what he maketh himself within the limits fixed by his inherited destiny; he is a part of mankind; his actions affect not only what he calleth himself, but also the whole universe.

10. Worship and neglect not, the physical body which is thy temporary connection with the outer and material world. Therefore let thy mental Equilibrium be above disturbance by material events; strengthen and control the animal passions, discipline the emotions and the reason, nourish the Higher Aspirations.

11. Do good unto others for its own sake, not for reward, not for gratitude from them, not for sympathy. If thou art generous, thou wilt not long for thine ears to be tickled by expressions of gratitude.

12. Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. Act passionately; think rationally; be Thyself.

13. True ritual is as much action as word; it is Will.

14. Remember that this earth is but an atom in the universe, and that thou thyself art but an atom thereon, and that even couldst thou become the God of this earth whereon thou crawlest and grovellest, that thou wouldest, even then, be but an atom, and one amongst many.

15. Nevertheless have the greatest self-respect, and to that end sin not against thyself. The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices.

16. To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

17. Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that “the thought of foolishness is sin.” Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?

18. Therefore, as hath already been said, Establish thyself firmly in the equilibrium of forces, in the centre of the Cross of the Elements, that Cross from whose centre the Creative Word issued in the birth of the Dawning Universe.

19. Be thou therefore prompt and active as the Sylphs, but avoid frivolity and caprice; be energetic and strong like the Salamanders, but avoid irritability and ferocity; be flexible and attentive to images like the Undines, but avoid idleness and changeability; be laborious and patient like the Gnomes, but avoid grossness and avarice.

20. So shalt thou gradually develop the powers of thy soul, and fit thyself to command the Spirits of the elements. For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee.

21. In the true religion there is no sect, therefore take heed that thou blaspheme not the name by which another knoweth his God; for if thou do this thing in Jupiter thou wilt blaspheme יהוה and in Osiris יהשוה. Ask and ye shall have! Seek, and ye shall find! Knock, and it shall be opened unto you!

 

I take it back, Crowley did have a moral code, it involved allowing people to do their Will.  That is the :"good unto others" he is talking about; allow them to do their Will.  Do not abuse or abase them for what they choose to do.  This is not old world Slave-God doing Good, it is allowing freedom.  Crowley drew no distinction between a monk and a murderer, so long as both were doing their Will.

Edited April 6, 2023 by helpfuldemon

[stirling]

14 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

I take it back, Crowley did have a moral code, it involved allowing people to do their Will.  That is the :"good unto others" he is talking about; allow them to do their Will.  Do not abuse or abase them for what they choose to do.  This is not old world Slave-God doing Good, it is allowing freedom.  Crowley drew no distinction between a monk and a murderer, so long as both were doing their Will.

 

You seem to have some unresolved feelings about either Aleister Crowley or Thelema practitioners in general. That is your prerogative, but it might be helpful to everyone (and you) trying to understand what is going on if you were to share how you came into your anger or fear about this topic. 

 

I mean this entirely sincerely, and without any hidden agenda.

[helpfuldemon]

It isn't fear or resentment, it's just me trying to understand Thelema.  Crowley wanted to outline a new method of life and morality, and I want to get it right.  I'm not angry, I just think that people missed the point of what he was doing.  Why would he go through so much trouble just to affirm Christianity, or some other tradition which he denounced?  His idea was pure: do what thou wilt.  It means to do what you need to do.

 

Saint Nietzsche redefined Good and Evil, and Crowley took it and ran.  Good is liberty, Evil is restriction.  I'm not saying that Crowley necessarily wants to promote crime, but he doesn't denounce it either.  Crime in Crowley's eyes is to diminish someone's nobility and restrict their liberty.  

 

I guess if you read between the lines one might see cause to say that doing harm to another is wrong in Thelema, but there are many points where it seems like it is approved of.

Edited April 6, 2023 by helpfuldemon

[stirling]

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

It isn't fear or resentment, it's just me trying to understand Thelema.

 

I understand that it is confusing. For many years I imagined that it was just as you have stated it, giving short shrift to the idea that Thelema was any kind of valid spiritual path. It took going through my old books a few years ago while moving, and skimming some of my Crowley collection once I had insight into the non-dual nature of reality to shift my opinion. 

 

"Do What Thou Wilt" is a non-dual statement. I doesn't refer to the activities or actions of separate people, but rather to the will of the unity that understood and perceived with non-dual realization. It is an Absolute vs. Relative discussion. If this is unfamiliar territory,  a brief and simplified explanation of the relationship between these two can be found here:

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/what-are-the-two-truths/

 

Once you have that under belt, I would recommend listening to Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford pick apart the Thelema practice and some of their experiences with it in this podcast:

 

https://shows.acast.com/worp-fm/episodes/003-do-what-thou-wilt

 

The discussion covers the most common misconception of the implications of "Do What Thou Wilt" - that it is carte blanche for ne'er do wells to act as they see fit. 

 

I'd be happy to clarify any questions you might have about either, as they come up. You are welcome to post here, or message me privately if you prefer. 

[helpfuldemon]

I can't find the button on that podcast link to play it.

 

I think I understand the difference between relative reality and absolute reality.  Relative reality is personal Will and want while absolute reality is the interdependence on one another that we all must abide by to survive, is that right?  The one-ness of everything.

 

I still don't see how Do What Thou Wilt is a good statement for getting us to co-operate with one another.  Seems misleading.  I'm also still fairly sure that my interpretation of the Law of Liberty is correct and that Crowley defined morality as protecting freedom.  I don't see where he wrote about not doing certain things, or what would stop a person from actions.  

 

All in all I think Crowley failed.  I think he touched on a lot of good ideas and revealed a lot of truth, but as a system, I think he failed to define what he was really after.  His writing is also convoluted with other things which make it hard to find the moral meaning and guidance I need to find to understand.

 

I think I will just take my interpretation and keep it.  I believe that I understand it enough.  Thank you for enlightening me on True Will of absolute reality, that helped.

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

You seem to have some unresolved feelings about either Aleister Crowley or Thelema practitioners in general. That is your prerogative, but it might be helpful to everyone (and you) trying to understand what is going on if you were to share how you came into your anger or fear about this topic. 

 

I mean this entirely sincerely, and without any hidden agenda.

 

Check his post history and his first few posts here ... that will explain it .

[stirling]

18 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I can't find the button on that podcast link to play it.

 

I think I understand the difference between relative reality and absolute reality.  Relative reality is personal Will and want while absolute reality is the interdependence on one another that we all must abide by to survive, is that right?  The one-ness of everything.

 

I still don't see how Do What Thou Wilt is a good statement for getting us to co-operate with one another.  Seems misleading.  I'm also still fairly sure that my interpretation of the Law of Liberty is correct and that Crowley defined morality as protecting freedom.  I don't see where he wrote about not doing certain things, or what would stop a person from actions.  

 

All in all I think Crowley failed.  I think he touched on a lot of good ideas and revealed a lot of truth, but as a system, I think he failed to define what he was really after.  His writing is also convoluted with other things which make it hard to find the moral meaning and guidance I need to find to understand.

 

I think I will just take my interpretation and keep it.  I believe that I understand it enough.  Thank you for enlightening me on True Will of absolute reality, that helped.

 

The podcast is also available in these locations. If you are interested enough to want to argue these points, (unless it is the arguing you are excited about and not the understanding) I definitely think you would find it interesting:

 

https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/975e8e97-7549-442e-8b98-31b28d6660d0/episodes/1d5077a8-b679-48c2-bff6-164a598d392e/worp-fm-003-do-what-thou-wilt

 

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3OIqCgDVThWuysIt4keiDs

 

Absolute Reality is much more than interdependence of people on other people, it is the interconnectedness of all things OR, taken to its logical conclusion, the absence of any separateness of individual things, people, space between things, or moments other than this one. It doesn't have anything to do with individual survival. Realization of the absolute is the end of believing that an individual has any reality. Even though we believe that what we perceive is a world of concrete objects that each exist as a thing separate from other objects, these objects are "empty" of the existence and identity imputed by the labels we give them. Our "world" has no separate objects or people, ultimately. How would you imagine that understanding that the fabric of your experiencing is what "you" are would shift the way you interact with it? How do greed, hate, or "personal power" (the topic of another concurrent thread) appear in such a context? As delusions. 

 

I am no apologist for Crowley, or his life, or teachings. I don't think Crowleys writings are the most direct teachings that could be used for liberation by a long shot, BUT I do think he understood the topic, and I DO think that (in isolation) the Thelema teachings can be used for enlightenment. The topic of podcast is both understanding the meaning of those teachings in this context AND how they can be used for liberation.

[helpfuldemon]

While "Do what thou wilt" is true in the sense that we are free to do what we will, it is not the law.  Law is based on other things than freedom, like harming someone else.  Love is the Law is closer to the truth, but we cannot legislate love.  Love is a personal choice, but we should treat everyone with the respect of love.  Jesus said to love everyone as you love yourself, and to forgive those that do you wrong.  This is good if you don't want to carry negativity, but at some point crime needs to be addressed. It is wise to have a conversation about crime with the criminal, to see if one can reason with them to get them to see their error.  I don't think punishment should be the first option.  If the criminal persists in doing crime, then restraining their freedom is necessary, and perhaps enforcing a reimbursement for damages.  In our country things are so wild and out of control when it comes to crime, damages being assessed at millions of dollars, immediate punishment for accusations against someone.  It is a shame.  

[helpfuldemon]

Just after I wrote this I realized that Do What Thou Wilt is the Law of the strong, that it means that if you are strong enough to get your Will done, you win.  That is what it really means.  Whether by force or reason, this is the Law of life.

Edited April 18, 2023 by helpfuldemon

[Cobie]

.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Cobie

[helpfuldemon]

USA

[helpfuldemon]

I think that the Law of history, and life, is Do What Thou Wilt.  Whether by force or by reason, the strong get their Will done, and win.  I think that Crowley was onto something but I don't agree with his interpretation, at least the way it is presented in places.  

[stirling]

You have clearly already decided what you think. I'm curious about why you keep posting in this thread when you have already ended the discussion to your satisfaction?

[helpfuldemon]

Sorry.  I'm a bit obsessed.  I guess I just realized that Wisdom fails, and that we each have our own version.  The truth is that we are free to act, and choose what to believe.  I think that's the real lesson of Do What Thou Wilt.  

[stirling]

I respect that this is your experience of the world, but understand that there are myriad "beings" that have a very different experience of the world. There are many here actively experimenting with shifting their experience with various practices. Your experience is NOT a fixed or underlying truth by any means. 

 

If you LIKE your experience then there is no need to do anything, but from here it looks like this view isn't generating any happiness for you, or you would wander off and enjoy your new insight. 

 

What is your definition of Wisdom (capital "W")? From my perspective, there is nothing about "Wisdom" (or prajna) that can fail or not fail. 

[helpfuldemon]

I still haven't cemented my understanding, probably the reason I keep posting.  It's a struggle to find happiness, but I do live in silence and rest often.  I mourn too much though, but that is coming to an end I think.  I'm getting accustomed to the idea that all is a matter of choice.

 

Wisdom is advice from our sages and teachers and holy books.  Wisdom is my own understanding and choice for action.  Wisdom fails because it is just one way to view something.  Everyone has their own truth and way to respond to life, and no one way is better than others, though some are more considerate of life and peace.