Please Delete, Or Lock And Move To The Rabbit Hole

[kakapo]

21 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

But plato's analogy is an exaggeration to make a point.  It's exaggerated.  The shadows on the all ARE reality.  They are in a cave.  There are fires for light and warmth.  Why are you assuming the shadows are not real.

 

And why are you assuming there's a problem if I look at the TV and see some intruder picked on the security camera.  That's not a problem, that's a solution to a big problem.

 

 

I know it's not actually my arm, but it's a very-very good abstraction.  Super-duper good, much-much-much better than a 2-d picture on a TV.  A pipe I can put in my mouth and smoke is a very-very-very good likeness of a pipe.  Comparing it to a picture is, forgive me, silly.  Not even close.  

 

Daniel,

 

Imagine you are in a tank.

 

You have cameras outside the tank, and a television inside the tank.

 

This let's you drive the tank around and navigate your environment.

 

The output you see on the television screen while it may indeed represent reality outside of the tank, it itself is not that reality.

 

It is a representation of the reality outside.

 

What you see is a representation.

 

What you hear is a representation.

 

What you smell is a representation.

 

What you taste is a representation.

 

What you feel is is a representation.

 

Your eyeballs are biological cameras.

 

The reality you see and experience is occurring inside your skull.

 

The hangup here is that most people assume they are looking out into an external universe, and that is incorrect.

 

They are in fact looking into their own mind.

 

Most people just assume what they see is reality, but it is not.

 

A painting of a pipe not an actual pipe.

 

An experience of a pipe, is not an actual pipe.

 

No matter how real the experience feels.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

24 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Even an estimate would be useful here.  The perception of my arm is... what?  75% correct?  80%?  99%?

 

Your arm contains so much data.

 

Imagine keeping track of the speed, and trajectory of every electron and subatomic particle in every atom.

 

If we turned every grain of sand on earth into a computer you couldn't do it.

 

I would say your perception at best captures:

 

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00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

 

 

of the data contained in the atoms of your arm.

Edited September 10, 2023 by kakapo

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

 ... in a spoiler to prevent the need for excessive scrolling ...
 

Spoiler

Daniel,

 

Imagine you are in a tank.

 

You have cameras outside the tank, and a television inside the tank.

 

This let's you drive the tank around and navigate your environment.

 

The output you see on the television screen while it may indeed represent reality outside of the tank, it itself is not that reality.

 

It is a representation of the reality outside.

 

What you see is a representation.

 

What you hear is a representation.

 

What you smell is a representation.

 

What you taste is a representation.

 

What you feel is is a representation.

 

Your eyeballs are biological cameras.

 

The reality you see and experience is occurring inside your skull.

 

The hangup here is that most people assume they are looking out into an external universe, and that is incorrect.

 

They are in fact looking into their own mind.

 

Most people just assume what they see is reality, but it is not.

 

A painting of a pipe not an actual pipe.

 

An experience of a pipe, is not an actual pipe.

 

No matter how real the experience feels.

 

 

I have already agreed to this.  I already understand this.  None of this has any bearing on what is happening outside the skull.  That's the whole point.

 

11 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

... in a spoiler to prevent the need for excessive scrolling ...

 

Spoiler

Your arm contains so much data.

 

Imagine keeping track of the speed, and trajectory of every electron and subatomic particle in every atom.

 

If we turned every grain of sand on earth into a computer you couldn't do it.

 

I would say your perception at best captures:

 

0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

 

 

of the data contained in the atoms of your arm.

 

 

My question was not "how much is missing"  I asked "how much is incorrect.  See below:

 

11 hours ago, Daniel said:

There needs to be some measure of the inaccuracy and where that inaccuracy exists.

 

And you never answered my question about the diagrams I sent you or the conversation we are having.  The reason this is important is because you seem to be assuming that nothing exists outside the mind even though there is abundant evidence for it.  This nullification of everything seems to be produced by beginning with doubt and skepticsm but then balloons into denial of everything without rational reasons.

 

So, I am asking:  where did the editted diagrams I produced come from?  How is it possible that you and I were able to reconcile the misunderstanding rapidly UNLESS we are both functionally seeing the same diagrams with the same content?  

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, kakapo said:

Suffering alone exists, none who suffer;
The deed there is, but no doer thereof;
Nirvana is, but no one is seeking it;
The Path there is, but none who travel it.

 

This sort of nullification, I'm sure would be very comforting for the drunk driver who has killed or hurt someone.  Or is comforting for anyone who has regrets.  "It's all a dream, it's all a dream, none of this is real..."   

 

[Cobie]

.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Cobie

[kakapo]

 

[kakapo]

https://www.anilseth.com/bio/

 

I am Professor of Cognitive and Computational Neuroscience at the University of Sussex, where I am also Director of the Sussex Centre for Consciousness Science. I am also Co-Director of the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) Program on Brain, Mind, and Consciousness, and of the Leverhulme Doctoral Scholarship Programme: From Sensation and Perception to Awareness. I was recently an Engagement Fellow with the Wellcome Trust.

 

I am Editor-in-Chief of Neuroscience of Consciousness (Oxford University Press); I sit on the Editorial Board of Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B and on the Advisory Committee for 1907 Research and for Chile’s Congreso Futuro. I was Conference Chair for the 16th Meeting of the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness (ASSC16, 2012) and was an ASSC ‘member at large’ from 2014-2022.

 

My research has been supported by the EPSRC (Leadership Fellowship), the European Research Council (ERC, Advanced Investigator Grant), the Wellcome Trust, and the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR).  Check out these profiles of me and my research in The Observer, The New Statesman, and Quanta.

[kakapo]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

I was diagnosed with depersonalization at a very young age. Ime arguing intellectually will not cure it. 

~~~
Depersonalization-derealization disorder occurs when you always or often feel that you're seeing yourself from outside your body or you sense that things around you are not real — or both. Feelings of depersonalization and derealization can be very disturbing. You may feel like you're living in a dream. (Google)

 

 

 

 

Colbe,

 

What I am talking about is actually true, I posted a wonderful ted talk about it above, please check it out.

 

People can get diagnosed with Schizophrenia for quoting Edward Snowden or David Grush.

 

Pretty much you have to filter your behavior and your speech in public settings, and even in private to some degree.

 

People who lack the ability to behave normally in public, or filter their speech to normal topics are perceived as being mentally ill.

 

If you are screaming from the rooftops about anything that isn't something people normally encounter you will be diagnosed with some disorder.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

 

The Rosenhan experiment was a famous study in the field of psychiatry, conducted by psychologist David Rosenhan in 1973. The study was designed to test the validity of psychiatric hospitals' ability to correctly diagnose mental illness.

 

The experiment had two parts:

 

Part One: Pseudo-patient Study: Eight "pseudo-patients" (including Rosenhan himself), none of whom had a history of mental illness, were instructed to go to various psychiatric hospitals around the United States. They claimed to be hearing voices that were unclear, but which seemed to utter the words "empty", "hollow", and "thud". These symptoms were chosen because they did not resemble any known symptoms of any mental illness. However, once admitted, the pseudo-patients acted completely normal and reported no more symptoms.

 

Part Two: Judgement of Sanity: After the first experiment, Rosenhan announced to a research and teaching hospital that over the next three months, one or more pseudo-patients would attempt to be admitted into the hospital. The staff were asked to rate every incoming patient on the likelihood that they were a pseudo-patient.

 

Findings:

First Part: All eight pseudo-patients were admitted to the hospitals, with seven diagnosed with schizophrenia and one with manic-depressive psychosis. They were all given antipsychotic medications (which they secretly discarded). Even though they acted normally after admission, they were kept in the hospitals for an average of 19 days (ranging from 7 to 52 days), and were all discharged with a diagnosis of their supposed mental illness "in remission".

 

Second Part: The staff at the hospital rated 193 patients. Forty-one were identified as potential pseudo-patients by at least one staff member, and 19 were suspected by at least one psychiatrist. In reality, Rosenhan had sent no pseudo-patients to the hospital.

 

Conclusion:

The Rosenhan experiment raised serious questions about the validity of psychiatric diagnoses and the implications of dehumanizing treatment in mental health institutions. It suggested that the diagnostic process in psychiatry was heavily influenced by the context and labels, rather than the patients' actual behavior or experiences. This landmark study played a key role in the movement towards deinstitutionalization and reform of mental health care.

 

 

Here is a wonderful documentary on the Rosenhan experiment:

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xt041e

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

I have already agreed to this.  I already understand this.  None of this has any bearing on what is happening outside the skull.  That's the whole point.

 

 

My question was not "how much is missing"  I asked "how much is incorrect.  See below:

 

 

And you never answered my question about the diagrams I sent you or the conversation we are having.  The reason this is important is because you seem to be assuming that nothing exists outside the mind even though there is abundant evidence for it.  This nullification of everything seems to be produced by beginning with doubt and skepticsm but then balloons into denial of everything without rational reasons.

 

So, I am asking:  where did the editted diagrams I produced come from?  How is it possible that you and I were able to reconcile the misunderstanding rapidly UNLESS we are both functionally seeing the same diagrams with the same content?  

 

 

"you seem to be assuming that nothing exists outside the mind"

No that is most certainly not my position at all, not even a little bit.

 

You live in a simulated reality created by your brain as a useful fiction to help you navigate your environment.

 

It is exactly like the holodeck in star trek.

 

We hope that this useful fiction accurately simulates reality outside of ourselves, because if it doesn't that's going to create a whole lot of problems.

 

[kakapo]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I have already agreed to this.  I already understand this.  None of this has any bearing on what is happening outside the skull.  That's the whole point.

 

 

My question was not "how much is missing"  I asked "how much is incorrect.  See below:

 

 

And you never answered my question about the diagrams I sent you or the conversation we are having.  The reason this is important is because you seem to be assuming that nothing exists outside the mind even though there is abundant evidence for it.  This nullification of everything seems to be produced by beginning with doubt and skepticsm but then balloons into denial of everything without rational reasons.

 

So, I am asking:  where did the editted diagrams I produced come from?  How is it possible that you and I were able to reconcile the misunderstanding rapidly UNLESS we are both functionally seeing the same diagrams with the same content?  

 

 

 "My question was not "how much is missing"  I asked "how much is incorrect.  See below:"

 

The video below has some wonderful views of our planets through a telescope. 

 

If we were on Mars and filming Earth with a similar telescope, you wouldn't see the trees, the people, you wouldn't understand the culture.

 

The same goes for your question about your arm.

 

There is too much you cannot see and know to say that your perception of it is anything more than a shadow on the wall.

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

I have already agreed to this.  I already understand this.  None of this has any bearing on what is happening outside the skull.  That's the whole point.

 

 

My question was not "how much is missing"  I asked "how much is incorrect.  See below:

 

 

And you never answered my question about the diagrams I sent you or the conversation we are having.  The reason this is important is because you seem to be assuming that nothing exists outside the mind even though there is abundant evidence for it.  This nullification of everything seems to be produced by beginning with doubt and skepticsm but then balloons into denial of everything without rational reasons.

 

So, I am asking:  where did the editted diagrams I produced come from?  How is it possible that you and I were able to reconcile the misunderstanding rapidly UNLESS we are both functionally seeing the same diagrams with the same content?  

 

 

"So, I am asking:  where did the editted diagrams I produced come from?  How is it possible that you and I were able to reconcile the misunderstanding rapidly UNLESS we are both functionally seeing the same diagrams with the same content?" 

 

Imagine you are in a tank, you see the outside world with a camera outside, and a television inside.

 

Now imagine that you had a crane on the outside of the tank you could use like a hand to interact with the environment.

 

Imagine you used the crane to write a message out in the dirt so another tank operator could read it, diagrams and all.

 

It's kind of a silly analogy, but it's the best one I can come up with.

[kakapo]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

This sort of nullification, I'm sure would be very comforting for the drunk driver who has killed or hurt someone.  Or is comforting for anyone who has regrets.  "It's all a dream, it's all a dream, none of this is real..."   

 

 

Earlier I mentioned we are talking past each other without any real communication occurring.

 

They way I understand the words and they way you understand them seems to be different.

 

The fact is our experience is all a dream, and none of it is real, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't drive sober or be good people.

 

There may in fact be an external reality out there which our simulated dream like experience is a representation of, and operating under the assumption there is we should behavior morally, and ethically.

 

I am saying don't mistake a painting of a pipe for an actual pipe.

 

What you see and experience isn't the same thing that is happening outside of your skull.

 

It is something different from it.

 

Yet most people live their lives operating under the assumption it is actual reality.

 

It is a holographic simulation, and nothing more.

Edited September 10, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I have already agreed to this.  I already understand this.  None of this has any bearing on what is happening outside the skull.  That's the whole point.

 

 

My question was not "how much is missing"  I asked "how much is incorrect.  See below:

 

 

And you never answered my question about the diagrams I sent you or the conversation we are having.  The reason this is important is because you seem to be assuming that nothing exists outside the mind even though there is abundant evidence for it.  This nullification of everything seems to be produced by beginning with doubt and skepticsm but then balloons into denial of everything without rational reasons.

 

So, I am asking:  where did the editted diagrams I produced come from?  How is it possible that you and I were able to reconcile the misunderstanding rapidly UNLESS we are both functionally seeing the same diagrams with the same content?  

 

 

So Daniel,

 

It's not my intention to be rude to you, so please don't take this the wrong way.

 

I've said everything I know to say about the topic, as many ways as I know how to say it.

 

At the moment it seems you still aren't grasping the core of what I am saying.

 

I'll be happy to continue talking to you about it, but at some point you have to acknowledge that the locals here on the forum will get annoyed by the same things being repeated over and over.

 

If you want to continue discussion, maybe we could continue the discussion in private?

 

Also please check out the Ted Talk above if you have time.

Edited September 10, 2023 by kakapo

[Daniel]

49 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

"you seem to be assuming that nothing exists outside the mind"

No that is most certainly not my position at all, not even a little bit.

 

You live in a simulated reality created by your brain as a useful fiction to help you navigate your environment.

 

It is exactly like the holodeck in star trek.

 

We hope that this useful fiction accurately simulates reality outside of ourselves, because if it doesn't that's going to create a whole lot of problems.

 

 

If so then the denial of qualia originally posted in the thread was, let's say, mis-spoken?  Please confirm?

[Daniel]

22 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

So Daniel,

 

It's not my intention to be rude to you, so please don't take this the wrong way.

 

I've said everything I know to say about the topic, as many ways as I know how to say it.

 

At the moment it seems you still aren't grasping the core of what I am saying.

 

I'll be happy to continue talking to you about it, but at some point you have to acknowledge that the locals here on the forum will get annoyed by the same things being repeated over and over.

 

If you want to continue discussion, maybe we could continue the discussion in private?

 

Also please check out the Ted Talk above if you have time.

 

The inherent unreality of qualia is not being discussed.  Instead, you're posting many words about points to which I have already agreed.  That is your choice, but I am not in any way encouraging it.

[kakapo]

5 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

If so then the denial of qualia originally posted in the thread was, let's say, mis-spoken?  Please confirm?

 

2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

The inherent unreality of qualia is not being discussed.  Instead, you're posting many words about points to which I have already agreed.  That is your choice, but I am not in any way encouraging it.

 

 

Hi Daniel,

 

If you can see it, if you can hear it, if you can smell it, if you can taste it, if you can feel it, if you can remember it, then it is not real and it is a simulation your brain has created as a useful fiction to help you navigate your environment.

 

If that answer does not satisfy you, then please let's take this discussion private because I feel we are beating a dead horse and while I don't mind to continue, others here in the forum will begin to complain sometime in the near future.

[Daniel]

@kakapo, in an effort to get back on track, here is my original reply to the thread in context.  It seemed at several tims in the thread you agreed  with what I wrote, but then walked that back for reasons which are not entirely clear to me.

 

On 9/5/2023 at 5:47 PM, kakapo said:

 

I don't understand the meaning of your words, at least not in this context. 

 

Statement: The paint is red.

 

Question: To what end?

 

Answer: There is no end, it's just an observation of the color of the paint.

 

( Please note the word choice "observation".  I used this same word.  It seems that "observation" = "observed" in the model you are presenting. There should be no objection when I used that word. )

 

On 9/9/2023 at 9:33 AM, silent thunder said:

the paint is not red

 

red is in the mind

 

23 hours ago, Daniel said:

the paint is not in the mind.

 

the observation is the observer.  the observer is not the observed.

 

the color is 'red' is just a label, a symbol in the mind which is bound to the neurochemical reaction when a specific range of wavelengths of elecrto-magnetic radition interacts with the retina.  Those wavelengths are not the mind, nor are the they the observer.

 

while it's an interesting thought experiment to consider objective compared to subjective phenomena, it seems foolish to me to apply this idea globally to the point of "everything is subjective, everything is in the mind" 

 

Notice the distinction I am making.  It is between the "observed" and the "observation" which you seem to use interchangeably in this thread.  I think that's a problem which is leading to the denial of qualia.

 

[kakapo]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

@kakapo, in an effort to get back on track, here is my original reply to the thread in context.  It seemed at several tims in the thread you agreed  with what I wrote, but then walked that back for reasons which are not entirely clear to me.

 

 

( Please note the word choice "observation".  I used this same word.  It seems that "observation" = "observed" in the model you are presenting. There should be no objection when I used that word. )

 

 

 

Notice the distinction I am making.  It is between the "observed" and the "observation" which you seem to use interchangeably in this thread.  I think that's a problem which is leading to the denial of qualia.

 

 

The observer, and the observed are the same thing.

 

The experience that is occurring is what you are.

 

So if you take a stroll out in nature, and think man that is breath taking,  you understand that what you are seeing is the inside of your own mind, and not some external phenomenon. 

 

You then realize how absolutely breathtaking your own mind is.

[Daniel]

5 minutes ago, kakapo said:

Hi Daniel,

 

If you can see it, if you can hear it, if you can smell it, if you can taste it, if you can feel it, if you can remember it, then it is not real and it is a simulation your brain has created as a useful fiction to help you navigate your environment.

 

Please do not be insulted, but your language above is ambiguous.  

 

"If you can see it, if you can hear it, if you can smell it, if you can taste it, if you can feel it, if you can remember it, then it is not real"

 

What is 'IT"?  The sensation or the phenomena which produces the sensation?  Both are 'real'.

 

5 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

If that answer does not satisfy you, then please let's take this discussion private because I feel we are beating a dead horse and while I don't mind to continue, others here in the forum will begin to complain sometime in the near future.

 

Please answer the question above?

 

What is 'IT"?  The sensation or the phenomena which produces the sensation?

[kakapo]

Just now, Daniel said:

 

Please do not be insulted, but your language above is ambiguous.  

 

"If you can see it, if you can hear it, if you can smell it, if you can taste it, if you can feel it, if you can remember it, then it is not real"

 

What is 'IT"?  The sensation or the phenomena which produces the sensation?  Both are 'real'.

 

 

Please answer the question above?

 

What is 'IT"?  The sensation or the phenomena which produces the sensation?

 

It is you.

[kakapo]

If it aint clicking by now man,  10 more pages aint gonna make it click.

[Daniel]

4 minutes ago, kakapo said:

The observer, and the observed are the same thing.

 

This is irrelvant to whether or not qualia are inherently unreal.

 

From your own diagram.  There are qualia behind the question mark.  Ignorance of them does not render them NULL.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

2 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

It is you.

 

Great.  What does this say about anything outside or beyond "you"?  Anything?

[kakapo]

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Great.  What does this say about anything outside or beyond "you"?  Anything?

 

You get to live in a simulated holographic experience, which you hope is an accurate representation of reality outside of yourself.

 

I operate under the assumption there is an external reality and the experience that is occurring represents it accurately (most of the time), but this is not something I philosophically defend.

 

I am open ideas like this being a quantum computer simulation, or that we could be Boltzmann brains.

 

What I do understand is that almost all humans alive on earth are chained to a wall, and seeing shadows on the wall and believing the shadows to be reality, exactly like Plato's allegory of the cave.

Edited September 10, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

7 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

This is irrelvant to whether or not qualia are inherently unreal.

 

From your own diagram.  There are qualia behind the question mark.  Ignorance of them does not render them NULL.

 

 

Images on a television have no inherent reality,  experiences that you have no inherent reality for the same reason.

 

At best they can accurately represent something else, like a painting of a pipe accurately represents a pipe but they can never substitute for actual reality.