Women in Eastern Tradition (taboo)

[Dedicated]

I love being a Woman. 

[Cobie]

 

6 hours ago, Dedicated said:

I love being a Woman. 

 

How does that connect for you with the thread title?

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Cobie

[Dedicated]

Hi Cobie, how does it not?

[Cobie]

@Dedicated I can’t compute that. Over and out. 
 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Cobie

[Dedicated]

How does my experience of being a Woman connect to the discussion about Women and Buddhism? Out of loving kindness I express transcendence over the gender politics. I could have pointed out some male gurus feel they become more like Women as they... um... learn. And one or two other rebuttals and quotes. But on that day I remembered the simple joy of being a Woman, and to express this empowers me and all other Women who may felt disheartened reading the thread. And releases all interested in Buddhism to let go the distraction of what gender they're fellow student is and perhaps feel a little joy

[Dedicated]

Furthermore, can we not forgive our ancestors for not being ready to practise with Women? I personally see that we can seperate politics from spirituality. I consciously choose to let go of what potential I may have had to be a politician and instead choose inner peace. And that's what this is, politics, gender politics to be exact. I love being a Women, and I believe this will heal confusion to whatever extent

[Cobie]

@Dedicated Thank you for elucidating. 

[Dedicated]

You're welcome Cobie. It's a tricky subject

[Nungali]

On 6/1/2023 at 3:28 AM, silent thunder said:

Don't think it's a language thing, neiwrong is routinely condescending.

 

" Nei wrong "     

[Nungali]

When I first started communicating via Daobums ,  and over the years , many an amazing woman here has been 'met' . But sadly over the years many have left  .... not just people leaving over some type of frustration , I am talking women leaving over some type of sexist or misogynist  'frustration' .

 

I am glad you  'guys'   (    )   are here . . . hang in there !

 

In this age , I am sad to say , ' the feminine'  *  is still under assault  ;

 

*  sexual equality ,  nature and environment ,   the 'World Soul ' ,  the 'Human Soul '   (often ascribed to the 'feminine principle' ) and that most interesting of feminine icons ; Venus / love .

 

In this subject , I think it was a precept of earlier Buddhism to give thanks for being a man , and being born in a country that has access to the teachings of Buddha .

 

I give thanks for being born a man .... not for 'not being born a woman ' ... I also give thanks for my country of birth , time in history , the parents I had  ....  etc etc .  But I can do that as I have had a VERY good life .   Maybe some people do not realize how good their life actually is   ( relatively and in context with others ) ?

[old3bob]

.

Edited October 19, 2023 by old3bob

[Dedicated]

I think the best approach to some problems is to find a healthy positive rather than pick at the negative. As a Women I want immunity from over thinking it. We find this by empowering one an other without resentment. It's not a solution, but an approach. I look at things from a healers perspective more than a political one. A different way to look at feminism is to protect feminity in men and women. Some days I need to wear a skirt, that it would injure me to have to wear pants. To be honest, it's been a while since I've felt that. So I extend that might mean men feel that too. I like the idea of mixing up men and women's fashion. I'm fascinated with how medicine for women might look different. I seek ways to heal, and avoid escalating the confusion of the sexes

Edited October 11, 2023 by Dedicated

[old3bob]

On 4/9/2023 at 10:03 AM, stirling said:

Just a quick point: Enlightened beings do not have genders. This is not to say that they belong to some other popular contemporary category, but rather to say that Buddhas, like all things you might consider having intrinsic existence, are ultimately "empty" in the absolute understanding. A Buddha sees that ALL conceptual categories are arbitrary and dream-like, having no substantial reality. Buddhas and the fabric of reality in this moment are identity-free, indistinguishable, and seamlessly unified. 

 

It is not the Buddha himself that would have had these sorts of biases, but rather cultures that reified his teachings and turned them into systems or processes of enlightenment. 

 

 

I'd say that as long as a very high percentage of beings still have bodies then they also still have some amount of ego used to interact with others in various realms, and if they still have some amount of ego then they still have some amount of gender framework that they grew up with, granted it may be very little but I don't see how it can be dismissed out of hand just because they are "enlightened" via most of their karma being balanced out and most of their ego being greatly diminished?

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by old3bob

[stirling]

14 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'd say that as long as a very high percentage of beings still have bodies then they also still have some amount of ego used to interact with others in various realms, and if they still have some amount of ego then they still have some amount of gender framework that they grew up with, granted it may be very little but I don't see how it can be dismissed out of hand just because they are "enlightened" via most of their karma being balanced out and most of their ego being greatly diminished?

 

I understand your reasoning here. The thing that makes this the case is that the "self" is understood to be a delusion upon "awakening", and is eventually seen through (arhat). Once that happens the dualities associated with "self" drop away too. Someone without a "self" also naturally ceases generating karma. This doesn't mean that the person won't continue dressing a particular way, or appear as a particular sex or gender in the world, only that identifying with it (or any other sex) ceases.

Edited October 12, 2023 by stirling

[old3bob]

the ego is temporary thus not just an illusion because of that, in a different elemental context the same goes for all of creation, its maintenance, its destruction, which then starts all over again just as the 4 cycles of nature repeat.   So we will never reconcile Buddhism's teachings  of delusion and Hinduism and the Self, much less the orthodox Abrahamic religions.  "Unity in diversity" sounds great but as long as the various  scriptures of the major religions deny it then those that follow such scripture will never realize it.

Edited October 12, 2023 by old3bob

[Nungali]

The roots of my whole martial tradition where developed originally by a woman   . 

 

( offering this as 'Women in the eastern tradition ' ) 

 

Spoiler

According to the legend, Fang Qiniang was born in Lishui, Zhejiang, China, during the Ming dynasty. Her father was Fang Zhengdong and her mother Lee Pikliung. Her father trained Shaolin luohan quan at the 9 Lot Mountain Temple in the Ching Chiang district in Fujian Province; this temple was one of the Shaolin enclaves of Fujian and the Ming revolutionaries. During that time, the Qianlong Emperor ordered the destruction of Southern Shaolin Temple and the death of all Ming revolutionaries. Fang Zhengdong was one of the lucky few to escape alive. He initially fled with his family to Pik Chui Liang to finally settle near the Ching Chu temple on the Ching Chea mountain in Yongchun village.

Her father died during a fight with a neighbor and she vowed to avenge him. One day, while she was trying to improve her fighting skills, she saw two cranes fighting. She observed them and tried to scare them off with a stick. She wasn't able to and meditating on it later, she decided that she had to learn from the cranes, and developed her own unique techniques from the experience. After three years of training she became a skilled and unusual fighter and started to gain disciples and challengers. One of her challengers was Zeng Cinshu.^[1]

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Nungali

[stirling]

12 hours ago, old3bob said:

the ego is temporary thus not just an illusion because of that, in a different elemental context the same goes for all of creation, its maintenance, its destruction, which then starts all over again just as the 4 cycles of nature repeat.   So we will never reconcile Buddhism's teachings  of delusion and Hinduism and the Self, much less the orthodox Abrahamic religions.  "Unity in diversity" sounds great but as long as the various  scriptures of the major religions deny it then those that follow such scripture will never realize it.

 

Did you miss me?

 

I would say that the ego is impermanent and therefore not a construct of ultimate reality. I would also say that all dualities, including periods of creation, maintenance, destruction, or cycles are stories we tell about the world. These ideas are in Buddhism too - with stories about realms, etc. They are teaching tools that are set aside once the nature of things is understood. These sorts of stories exist in every non-dual tradition I have encountered. 

 

Quote

Imagine, friends, a man in the course of a journey who arrives at a great expanse of water, whose near bank is dangerous and whose far bank offers safety. But there is no ferryboat or bridge to take him across the water. So he thinks: ‘What if I collected grass, twigs, branches and leaves and bound them together as a raft? Supported by the raft and by paddling with my hands and feet, I should then be able to reach the far bank.’ 

“He does this and succeeds in getting across.

“On arriving at the far bank, it might occur to him: ‘This raft has been very helpful indeed. What if I were to hoist it on my head or shoulders, then proceed on my journey?’ Now, what do you think? By carrying it with him, would that man be doing what should be done with a raft?’

“’No, sir,’ replied his audience.

“’So what should he do with the raft? Having arrived at the far bank, he might think: ‘Yes, this raft has been very useful, but now I should just haul it onto dry land or leave it floating in the water, and then continue on my journey.’ In this way the man would be doing what should be done with that raft.

“The dharma too is like a raft. It serves the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of grasping.
“When you understand that the dharma is like a raft, and that you should let go even of positive things (dhamma), then how much more so should you let go of negative things (adhamma).” - Buddha, [MN 22]

 

The teachings are the map, not the destination (or the raft, not the shore) and all offer different perspectives on what the journey looks like. Ultimately what is "real" is ineffable. It doesn't fit into ANY cosmology, model, or belief system. Those too get set aside.

 

I reject the idea of adopting views or beliefs and suggest each person use the free and dogma-free tool of meditation to see how things are. Having faith in a practice that demonstrates its efficacy is what is valuable to me.

 

With a little pointing from an experienced teacher (Hindu, Sikh, Sufi, Buddhist, etc. etc.) you can examine for yourself what is just a mental construct and what always exists underneath in awareness In the quiet of a still mind. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by stirling

[old3bob]

Stirling, we are in the wrong string to continue with this unrelated subject,  getting off subject for a couple of posts is not uncommon at the site but should not be continued by us unless the string is easy going and wide open to being morphed about going by its participants.   Anyway I'll respond one more time to your Buddhist saying with another paraphrased Zen saying,   "Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters." which I interpret to mean, the illusion is that there is illusion.

[stirling]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

Stirling, we are in the wrong string to continue with this unrelated subject,  getting off subject for a couple of posts is not uncommon at the site but should not be continued by us unless the string is easy going and wide open to being morphed about going by its participants.   Anyway I'll respond one more time to your Buddhist saying with another paraphrased Zen saying,   "Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters." which I interpret to mean, the illusion is that there is illusion.

 

Well, I am definitely happy to stop.  Having said that I really have to say one more thing! 

 

The illusion is that things ever had intrinsic existence (existence as a separate thing). The mountains disappear, and then REAPPEAR, yes, but when they reappear they RETAIN their no-mountain-ness. That the form of the mountains that is still extant was always "empty" and that mountains never had intrinsic existence is the insight that is gained. This is the insight that "form is emptiness, emptiness form" from the Heart Sutra teaches us. 

 

The same idea is presented here:

 

Quote

"As rivers, flowing down, become indistinguishable on reaching the sea by giving up their names and forms, so also the illumined soul, having become freed from name and form, reaches the self-effulgent supreme self." – Mundaka Upanishad

 

Despite gnowing experientially that everything is "sea" we are still able to see the "names and forms". You are just color and light to Brahman, and yet you still answer to "oldbob", after all. 

[stirling]

Back on topic, my entire sangha is comprised of women. This isn't because I chose them specifically. My experience is that the women often have something that the men seem to lack: the all important ability to truly surrender to the causes and conditions of this moment. For whatever reason there is just less struggle with how things are, and less struggle with letting go of concreted ideas, two things that make for a truly successful practice. My teacher is ALSO a woman. I am grateful to be constantly learning from ALL of them. 

[Nungali]

Mt first initiator in the Western magical tradition was a woman .  It was a tradition open to  both sexes  ( its roots came out of ancient Freemasonry , they dumped the 'exclusive to men only' thing ) ... still , the 'boys' in the group suggested I find a male initiator ... they  had no real valid reason why though       .

 

later, I became known amongst some of them as 'a ladies man'     

 

Ummmm ... I was a young, virile , heterosexual male  ..... why wouldn't I be ?      

 

 

[ Here is a funny one I often recount ;   when I worked at the hospital, for a time I took very cheap rental at the Nurse's home ( men on ground floor ) the other 'boys' there got pissed with me ; " How come YOU are so popular  with the women ? "

 

I had to answer truthfully ;   " I think it is because , sometimes after work, I might suggest we spend some different type of time together , maybe go to beach , get a meal, or I could cook one .... nurses get aching feet , how about a foot massage ... stuff like that .

 

" In case you did not realize , what they DO NOT want , after a long hard shift, when they are tired , is having to walk to their car in the car park, past the ground floor recreation room window , and having some supposedly adult male moron , hang his drunken  head out the window and yell out " Show us yer tits ! " and then  squat down below the window, like a school boy ,  to conceal his identity . . .  things like that can hamper one's popularity " 

 

They didnt like my " smart arse "  comments at all,  normally they would 'cure ' a smart arse  via  'physicality '   to 'get even ' .... but they only tried that once on me 

 

  

 

.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Nungali

[Dedicated]

Gender could be said to be ego. A loss of ego experience might include transcending the gender duality.

[silent thunder]

@Dedicated that's an intriguing thought.

 

Recently, duality for me no longer represents a manifestation of two distinct seperate 'things' of and to themselves; rather it represents the manner in which there are expressions of one dynamic process along a continuum of polarity. 

 

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

@Dedicated that's an intriguing thought.

 

Recently, duality for me no longer represents a manifestation of two distinct seperate 'things' of and to themselves; rather it represents the manner in which there are expressions of one dynamic process along a continuum of polarity. 

 

 

yess

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

@Dedicated that's an intriguing thought.

 

Recently, duality for me no longer represents a manifestation of two distinct seperate 'things' of and to themselves; rather it represents the manner in which there are expressions of one dynamic process along a continuum of polarity. 

 

 

Ha!

 

But its really pretty simple , eh ?    Why does everything come coded in threes  ?   That was  scratched on before .

 

its pretty simple ;   any 'thing' itself   + its two extremities ;

 

yin ----------------- DAO ---------------------- yang

 

hot ---------------TEMPERATURE ----------------  cold

 

+ --------------- ELECTRICITY --------------------  -

 

top --------  QUARK SPIN ---------------- bottom.

 

this end ------------------- WORM ------------------  that end      

 

and so on .