Variations of Microcosmic orbit?

[Juiced]

HI,

 

I've been practicing the Small Circle for a while and am enjoying the feel of Qi. Before moving up to the MCO, I'm wondering if it would be reasonable to extend the Small Circle orbit to include the chest and the point opposite the chest. So, the new orbit would look like this: dantian --> perineum --> tailbone --> mingmen --> point opposite chest --> chest --> dantian.

 

I'm thinking of doing this so that I can gradually build up flow of Qi in the orbit without the potential complications of not having enough flow and having Qi get stuck in my head.

 

I've seen the suggestion that I can go up to the forehead in the orbit and then reverse course and go back to dantian.

 

Your thoughts, please.

[Taoist Texts]

11 hours ago, Juiced said:

I'm wondering if it would be reasonable to extend the Small Circle orbit to include the chest and the point opposite the chest. ...the potential complications of not having enough flow and having Qi get stuck in my head.

you can do it. why not? there is no particular benefit or harm in it. doing it provides no guarantee from deviations either.

[dawei]

Chi Kung: Health and Martial Arts

https://www.amazon.com/Chi-Kung-Health-Martial-Arts/dp/0940871009/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=chi+kung+health+and+martial+arts&sr=8-1

 

This is Dr. Yang Jing Ming early books and just over a 100 pages is packed with info including various MCOs.  You can find used ones very cheap at Amazon.

[liminal_luke]

On 3/31/2023 at 10:43 AM, Juiced said:

HI,

 

I've been practicing the Small Circle for a while and am enjoying the feel of Qi. Before moving up to the MCO, I'm wondering if it would be reasonable to extend the Small Circle orbit to include the chest and the point opposite the chest. So, the new orbit would look like this: dantian --> perineum --> tailbone --> mingmen --> point opposite chest --> chest --> dantian.

 

I'm thinking of doing this so that I can gradually build up flow of Qi in the orbit without the potential complications of not having enough flow and having Qi get stuck in my head.

 

I've seen the suggestion that I can go up to the forehead in the orbit and then reverse course and go back to dantian.

 

Your thoughts, please.

 

The microcosmic orbit is a hot topic.  Some Bums hold that guiding energy with the mind is counterproductivealtogether.  (See @freeform.)  That said, an old teacher of mine, Gilles Marin, recommends exactly the path you suggest.  My only caution would be to not to spend a lot of focused non-moving time concentrating on the heart center.

[Trunk]

If you experiment with a spectrum of

pressing firmly <~> not quite touching

(addresses the spectrum of physical <~> subtle)

points along the center line

while breathing in & out (slowly, with focus, fully) at that point ...

(as demonstrated in this video)

 

I think that you'll find it'll help you with activating acupoints along ren as well as bringing circulation, attention, and articulation to various musculature that might be unfamiliar.

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

Both of my traditional lineage teachers heavily downplay MCO.

 

Do not recommend seeking it, or obsessing about it.

 

It is but one tool in the box and the body will bring it into play when the foundation is ready for its use.

 

Do the work.

[Trunk]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Both of my traditional lineage teachers heavily downplay MCO.

 

.. when the foundation is ready ..

 

Any clarification on what the foundation is?,

from your perspective (influenced by the background you've mentioned), to the degree that you feel appropriate to share.  Perhaps in very broad outline.

 

My view is that we are going through a profound shift, over decades, in the popular-Taoist culture - on what the emphasis, order of approach to the inner work.  Always interested in hearing educated views. 

[Maddie]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:43 PM, Juiced said:

HI,

 

I've been practicing the Small Circle for a while and am enjoying the feel of Qi. Before moving up to the MCO, I'm wondering if it would be reasonable to extend the Small Circle orbit to include the chest and the point opposite the chest. So, the new orbit would look like this: dantian --> perineum --> tailbone --> mingmen --> point opposite chest --> chest --> dantian.

 

I'm thinking of doing this so that I can gradually build up flow of Qi in the orbit without the potential complications of not having enough flow and having Qi get stuck in my head.

 

I've seen the suggestion that I can go up to the forehead in the orbit and then reverse course and go back to dantian.

 

Your thoughts, please.

 

I did this before and it gave me anxiety. it's true you will avoid the problems of having qi get stuck in the head. Instead you will have the problems of qi getting stuck in the chest. 

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I did this before and it gave me anxiety. it's true you will avoid the problems of having qi get stuck in the head. Instead you will have the problems of qi getting stuck in the chest. 

the MCO occurs naturally when the LDT is ready - you don’t need to visualize or force anything.

 

if qi gets stuck then this is an indication that it is not natural

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

the MCO occurs naturally when the LDT is ready - you don’t need to visualize or force anything.

 

if qi gets stuck then this is an indication that it is not natural

 

I've not done this for a long time. I realized this was not a good approach. 

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, Trunk said:

 

Any clarification on what the foundation is?,

from your perspective (influenced by the background you've mentioned), to the degree that you feel appropriate to share.  Perhaps in very broad outline.

 

My view is that we are going through a profound shift, over decades, in the popular-Taoist culture - on what the emphasis, order of approach to the inner work.  Always interested in hearing educated views. 

In the context of lineage work, it's always seemed that my teacher offers new techniques when they observe I'm ready for them.  So foundation work would consist to me of every practice you encounter from the point of entry, up until you're inducted into closed door/advanced techniques where LDT and MCO would be required tools to engage in the process.

 

Though that seems overly focused on body work as a definition.  Foundation to me implies engaging in daily observations of thinking patterns and emotional responsiveness to daily events.  and Silence.  It's so easy for all of this to become about techniques and words and philosophizing.  Some aspect of natural Silence should be present.

 

In short... De.  Without De a robust daoist body is not a Sage.

 

[Master Logray]

There is a practice where the Chi is moving between LDT and MDT, similar to OP's thinking. It seems to be safer too.  But I don't know how this practice fit in the grand scheme of Neidan. 

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Trunk said:

 

Any clarification on what the foundation is?,

from your perspective (influenced by the background you've mentioned), to the degree that you feel appropriate to share.  Perhaps in very broad outline.

 

My view is that we are going through a profound shift, over decades, in the popular-Taoist culture - on what the emphasis, order of approach to the inner work.  Always interested in hearing educated views. 

 

 

'Laying the foundation' is found in both Wang Mu and Charles L'uk's 'Taoist Yoga' and comprises all the stages up to the creation of the 'pill' in the LDT.  So anything done in the way of circulating qi or clearing the channels etc. prior to the creation of the pill/elixir is part of Laying the Foundations.  It starts with guarding the three treasures up till making the pill.  So most practices that people do are not the MCO, which arises after the pill is made.  If the orbit is applied before this it is just a mapping exercise or a channel clearing exercise - or at worst a waste of time - but it is not the MCO.  Its like the difference between looking at a map to see where Route 66 goes and driving Route 66 if you see what I mean.  (is there still a Route 66?) I don't know  but I get my kicks there

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

So anything done in the way of circulating qi or clearing the channels etc. prior to the creation of the pill/elixir is part of Laying the Foundations. 

this is correct

5 hours ago, Apech said:

If the orbit is applied before this it is just a mapping exercise or a channel clearing exercise - or at worst a waste of time - but it is not the MCO.

this is very correct

5 hours ago, Apech said:

MCO, which arises after the pill is made

depends on what is meant by the pill. nevertheless this is correct for the middle/low level methods

 

21 hours ago, Apech said:

the MCO occurs naturally when the LDT is ready - you don’t need to visualize or force anything.

hmmm...i would say no. it kinda sounds right i will give you that tho

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

this is correct

this is very correct

depends on what is meant by the pill. nevertheless this is correct for the middle/low level methods

 

hmmm...i would say no. it kinda sounds right i will give you that tho

So 8/10 ?

[Taoist Texts]

On 3/12/2024 at 8:55 PM, Apech said:

So 8/10 ?

yes great job i am surprised anyone knows that much. For my research could you please point me to your source for this

 

On 3/11/2024 at 11:35 PM, Apech said:

the MCO occurs naturally when the LDT is ready - you don’t need to visualize or force anything.

this POV crops up now and then but i am puzzled where it comes from. thanks!

[Apech]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes great job i am surprised anyone knows that much. For my research could you please point me to your source for this

 

this POV crops up now and then but i am puzzled where it comes from. thanks!

That part comes from my own experience - though I do believe I have read it also but for now I can’t remember where.

[Taoist Texts]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

That part comes from my own experience

whoa brilliant! you got the MCO running?! why dont you tell us all about it - how, when, what happened, what is next? inquiring minds want to know! 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

whoa brilliant! you got the MCO running?! why dont you tell us all about it - how, when, what happened, what is next? inquiring minds want to know! 

 

nuf said old bean, nuf said.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

That part comes from my own experience - though I do believe I have read it also but for now I can’t remember where.

Most legit lineages will say the same. It’s something that develops naturally after the lower dantien is fully activated.

[Apech]

23 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Most legit lineages will say the same. It’s something that develops naturally after the lower dantien is fully activated.

yes thank you - it’s quite a time since I was taught this so it’s hard to remember sources.

[Taoist Texts]

15 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Most legit lineages will say the same.

oh my! i had no clue, could you provide a link or a name...or anything at all

15 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

It’s something that develops naturally after the lower dantien is fully activated.

interestingly this statement is not so much wrong as meaningless. also it is a hallmark of a western made-up lineage (except @Apech of course, Ankh wedja seneb) thats why it is so fascinating to find out where did they get that and why it is important for them

1 hour ago, Apech said:

nuf said old bean, nuf said.

yeah, IYKYK . screw those inquiring minds. nobody told them to get their hopes up.

[Apech]

57 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh my! i had no clue, could you provide a link or a name...or anything at all

interestingly this statement is not so much wrong as meaningless. also it is a hallmark of a western made-up lineage (except @Apech of course, Ankh wedja seneb) thats why it is so fascinating to find out where did they get that and why it is important for them

yeah, IYKYK . screw those inquiring minds. nobody told them to get their hopes up.

 

You are right TT I should not blurt out things that sound like claims - I consider myself chastised.  And you are right I am struggling to find references to this in either Wang Mu or Charles Luk (although Taoist Yoga does refer to the vitality rising 'automatically' being driven by the prenatal breathing) - which are the two books I was referring to on the laying foundations.  I think, to answer your question I picked up this idea when I was taught Qi Gong and Nei Dan in the early 1990's.  My teacher was Chinese from Hong Kong so I would doubt he was affected by western made-up lineages.

 

If you consider this to be a misconception perhaps you could explain why (?).

 

Life, health and strength to you too.

 

A.

[Forestgreen]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

t @Apech thats why it is so fascinating to find out where did they get that 

Could it be partly from Wang Mu, page 65?

.... when the Cinnabar Field is as firm as a Stone

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

If you consider this to be a misconception perhaps you could explain why (?).

He can’t. The concept of oral tradition is lost on him. For him it only exists if Wikipedia says it does.