Variations of Microcosmic orbit?

[ChiDragon]

 

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Could it be partly from Wang Mu, page 65?

.... when the Cinnabar Field is as firm as a Stone

I scanned that chapter but couldn’t find a reference to the mco happening spontaneously etc.  if you find something let us know.

[Taoist Texts]

12 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Could it be partly from Wang Mu, page 65?

it could but it was published in 2011 while this strange idea gained currency 10-20 years earlier, right when the neidan fad was still budding

13 hours ago, Apech said:

I was taught Qi Gong and Nei Dan in the early 1990's.  My teacher was Chinese from Hong Kong so I would doubt he was affected by western made-up lineages.

ah thats pure gold thanx

13 hours ago, Apech said:

If you consider this to be a misconception perhaps you could explain why (?).

my pleasure. 1) not a single neidan text says 'sit still and eventually MCO will get running on its own' 2) its just common sense that to get something you gotta do something

9 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

oral tradition is lost on him.

... he said oral...

 

[Apech]

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

it could but it was published in 2011 while this strange idea gained currency 10-20 years earlier, right when the neidan fad was still budding

 

I didn't realise there was a fad.  I first read Charles Luk in the early 70's when it was first published in England.  There was Mantak Chia I suppose - then our dear friend Damo Mitchell ... is this what you mean?

 

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

ah thats pure gold thanx

 

you are welcome.

 

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

my pleasure. 1) not a single neidan text says 'sit still and eventually MCO will get running on its own' 2) its just common sense that to get something you gotta do something

 

 

 

1)  I don't think anyone is saying literally that.

 

2)  well you can push a bike up a hill and free wheel down the other side - without effort.

 

 

[Apech]

 

@Taoist Texts - above from Charles Luk Taoist Yoga - maybe 'independent of the practiser's will' and 'automatically' suggest the idea of spontaneous MCO?

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

2)  well you can push a bike up a hill and free wheel down the other side - without effort.

 

[Trunk]

"Beginnings"  is an interesting topic that we are exploring here.

(Started a thread in General to explore the topic more broadly.)

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

18 hours ago, Apech said:

 

1)  I don't think anyone is saying literally that.

thats the thing. with those neidaneers it is hard to even pin down what they are saying because they vacillate and contradict themselves at every step. But here is an example from under the silliest title ever:

Quote

 

1. Men begin by focusing on the breath. As you breathe in, draw your breath
down to the lower elixir field, allowing it to expand with each inhalation p97

2.  As the ..energy courses through the body, it also opens the
Governing and Conception Vessels and begins to run through the body in
the small heavenly circuit. ....This happens naturally and is no reason for concern. Just
keep on meditating, without trying to direct or control it,  p101

Internal Alchemy for Everyone

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Apech said:

2)  well you can push a bike up a hill and free wheel down the other side - without effort.

of course. thats what i mean. an effort is required first

17 hours ago, Apech said:

@Taoist Texts - above from Charles Luk Taoist Yoga - maybe 'independent of the practiser's will' and 'automatically' suggest the idea of spontaneous MCO?

it absolutely does. with the effort first. the effort is not just the drudgery of sitting still or even breathing into DT or any other nei-whatever activity. the effort is secret;)

12 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

 

oh look...thats the much touted oral tradition. hehehe;)

Btw the wiki is wrong. wu-wei does not mean any of the highlighted things. Instead it means all and any kinds of actions which are performed by another party on your behalf.

 

[S:C]

20 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

wu-wei does not mean any of the highlighted things. Instead it means all and any kinds of actions which are performed by another party on your behalf.

So it’s about setting in motion a causal chain from one’s own behalf - action and inaction?

Thought the old daoist concept of causality (shi) had a different interpretation of this… maybe someone can explain this?

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

thats the thing. with those neidaneers it is hard to even pin down what they are saying because they vacillate and contradict themselves at every step. But here is an example from under the silliest title ever:

 

I wasn't taking that particular subject seriously.

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

of course. thats what i mean. an effort is required first

it absolutely does. with the effort first. the effort is not just the drudgery of sitting still or even breathing into DT or any other nei-whatever activity. the effort is secret;)

 

oh secret effort!  how exciting.

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh look...thats the much touted oral tradition. hehehe;)

Btw the wiki is wrong. wu-wei does not mean any of the highlighted things. Instead it means all and any kinds of actions which are performed by another party on your behalf.

 

 

In the Egyptian tradition there are Ushabti which are figurines placed in the tomb to carry out any work required in the Underworld - such as fertilizing the fields, inundating the irrigation channels and carrying sand from East to West.  Obviously in the ordinary world this is about having servants to work for you.  But in the internal world it refers to laying down of patterns of function so that certain things happen automatically for you.  In the same way as you put effort in to learn to ride a bike - but once the pattern is established the riding becomes automatic - same for learning to drive etc.  In meditation you can apply certain techniques to achieve a result.  Once this is established then the technique becomes unimportant if the result is happening.  I think this is similar to wuwei.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, S:C said:

So it’s about setting in motion a causal chain from one’s own behalf - action and inaction?

yes

 

6 hours ago, S:C said:

maybe someone can explain this?

i doubt it;)

1 hour ago, Apech said:

I think this is similar to wuwei.

IYKYK;)

[Sahaja]

My understanding is that it arises  when the correct  conditions are in place. When it starts  moving  it’s pretty clear what is going on and that you are not directly governing it with your intention at that point. 

[Apech]

48 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes

 

i doubt it;)

IYKYK;)

 I had to look up IYKYK ... (touches finger to side of nose).

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Sahaja said:

When it starts  moving ...you are not directly governing it with your intention

depends on what IT is. quite a few practicers feel qi moving in various places without their intention, including over the MCO route. sometimes this qi movement is a deviation sometimes it feels good. but in all cases it is NOT the neidan MCO. chiefly because what moves in the MCO is not qi.

[Apech]

12 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

depends on what IT is. quite a few practicers feel qi moving in various places without their intention, including over the MCO route. sometimes this qi movement is a deviation sometimes it feels good. but in all cases it is NOT the neidan MCO. chiefly because what moves in the MCO is not qi.

 

 

What is it - if not qi?

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, Apech said:

What is it - if not qi?

it is called first yang or true yang as in Wang Mu

of course everything in the universe being qi it is also a qi, but not the regular kind circulating or felt in the body, hence it is 'true'

[Master Logray]

The common explanation is, when the LDT is full, it starts to flow down the channel and start orbiting on its own.   Most teachers would tell you that.   It is certainly true.  But then why MCO is regarded as Yau Wei Gong (Doing Something) instead of Wu Wei Gong?   If Chi can do everything by itself, safe and sound and smooth?

 

Because the person has to concentrate on the LDT to gather and build up Chi, start the firing trigger,  keep the Chi running along the proper channel (actually it is a trunk road with many junctions), don't omit sections (common), stopping in the journey (the 3 passes, the bathing points), determine when to go again or start its downward journey, adjust the speed etc.    There is not much Wu Wei left, at most just don't force things.

 

Given the involvement of the conscious mind, WuLiu MCO can hardly even be classified as meditation when this term generally refers stilling the mind and doing as little as possible.   It is more similar to Qigong or even Hatha Yoga where a lot of interventions are needed.

 

 

 

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The common explanation is, when the LDT is full, it starts to flow down the channel and start orbiting on its own.   Most teachers would tell you that.   It is certainly true.  But then why MCO is regarded as Yau Wei Gong (Doing Something) instead of Wu Wei Gong?   If Chi can do everything by itself, safe and sound and smooth?

 

Because the person has to concentrate on the LDT to gather and build up Chi, start the firing trigger,  keep the Chi running along the proper channel (actually it is a trunk road with many junctions), don't omit sections (common), stopping in the journey (the 3 passes, the bathing points), determine when to go again or start its downward journey, adjust the speed etc.    There is not much Wu Wei left, at most just don't force things.

 

Given the involvement of the conscious mind, WuLiu MCO can hardly even be classified as meditation when this term generally refers stilling the mind and doing as little as possible.   It is more similar to Qigong or even Hatha Yoga where a lot of interventions are needed.

 

 

 

Stilling the mind is preliminary for most things but it is generally over emphasized because most people don’t get past there.

[Cobie]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… wu-wei … means all and any kinds of actions which are performed by another party on your behalf.

Interesting. Could you please elucidate how you came to this translation?

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

50 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Interesting. Could you please elucidate how you came to this translation?

sure. its right there in DDJ 上德无为而无以为；下德为之而有以为. The rulers are non-doing, the subjects are doing (for the rulers)

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… The rulers are non-doing, the subjects are doing (for the rulers)

This is indeed a most ingenious way to read Ch 38. 

 

 

Edited March 16 by Cobie

[Sahaja]

My understanding of texts is they describe what had arisen at the end state, not the process to get there which comes from the teacher and from direct experience. The process is not binary and starts by charting out the route and is filled differently(yang qi, yin qi, light, the Dan etc.) at different stages of the process. Even at the earliest stages this is an unimposed non manufactured process that is quite strong somatically but effort is necessary to put the conditions where it can arise in place.Ultimately it even goes outside the physical body interacting with the yin fields around you. Actually  I should not say ultimately, as I don’t really know how many levels there are (the “10, 000” levels back to the one maybe the way to describe it)

 

The most important point is that it is a spiritual process anchored in a physical process based on moving beyond/releasing these contractions and colorings of the acquired bodymind. (Very analogous to yoga and Buddhist cultivation methods )The “doing” are these contractions and colorings of the bodymind - non doing or non governance is moving away from these intentions/contractions to pure attention uncolored by the acquired mind and then beyond this. When the tai chi masters talk about song and ting they are describing using these tools in a more prosaic way but in many ways it seems quite similar.  Even at a beginners level one can feel the qi strongly respond to the “releasing” of both physical and mental contractions if one is  “listening’”. 
 

When authors take an end state and reverse engineer it into a process to follow based on imagination or visualization of the end state, they are just encouraging more contraction of the mind and actually impeding the process as they are directing the use of  energies toward more doing rather than the un doing  of these physical and mental contractions which is the effort required. It may sound contradictory but letting go of the contractions takes work particularly when the ego and the physical body don’t  want you to release the contractions. The ego in many ways defines itself through these contractions. It probably feels quite threatened when stuff arises it’s not directly controlling!
 

i enjoy reading the texts and appreciate the work of philologists, academics  and translators. When I read things  like “supreme yin” in the really old texts  I can see the connection to very important aspects of the process and it’s helpful to see that. I am grateful for the light they shed and they are doing something I clearly don’t have the skills for. They have done much good work that should be acknowledged. However I think errors can be made when outcomes are conflated with processes.

 

ok Taoist texts - have at me! Perhaps it will help me release my own contractions to get some humility. I undoubtedly have a lot more to learn.  (Only 10,000 more levels to go)

[Master Logray]

15 hours ago, Apech said:

Stilling the mind is preliminary for most things but it is generally over emphasized because most people don’t get past there.

 

Modern world, it is unavoidable.  The initial step of concentrating on LDT has been a great hurdle for many people.

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, Sahaja said:

ok Taoist texts - have at me!

you are a very advanced practitioner of qigong. which i am sure is satisfying both health-wise and spiritually. from this stage you can either go on maintaining or deepening your qi adventure which does not have any clear goals or a process or a timeline or levels as you rightfully say

10 hours ago, Sahaja said:

outcomes are conflated with processes.

 

10 hours ago, Sahaja said:

(Only 10,000 more levels to go)

or you can venture into neidan which has clear and few goals or a process or a timeline or levels but has next to none chances of success.  your choice, your karma. thats basically it from my POV, i would say again that you are streets ahead of others

15 hours ago, Master Logray said:

The common explanation is, when the LDT is full, it starts to flow down the channel and start orbiting on its own.   Most teachers would tell you that. 

teachers lie. if they would not they would not get any paying customers. its that simple.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Every teacher is a liar except me!