Desire is the spice of life!

[Cobie]

On 26/04/2023 at 11:13 PM, Mark Foote said:

Speaking for myself, you are welcome to weave in threads from other traditions.  It's the spice of Dao Bums!

 

22 hours ago, steve said:

Sorry to see you go. 

 

Thank you both, that’s very kind of you to say.  Thanks too to @liminal_luke for the ‘like’. 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

5 hours ago, Eduardo said:

The Mahayana, no matter how noble and valid, may be the path proposed for the bodhisattva, the mantras, the ceremonies, the new sutras, etc.
It truly disqualified the path of Gautama Buddha's original teachings contained in the early texts of the Pali Canon, worse still pejoratively created the epithet Hinayana, as small vehicle as opposed to the great vehicle or Mahayana.

Wow, you can substitute: “Daoism, no matter how noble and valid, …

It truly disqualified the path of Laozi’s original teachings contained in the early texts of the DDJ”

 

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Apparently there was no such thing as hinayana in the real buddhism. Apparently hinayana meaning 'early buddhism' is only used in the west.

 

Jonathan Silk has argued that the term "Hinayana" was used to refer to whomever one wanted to criticize on any given occasion, and did not refer to any definite grouping of Buddhists.^[20]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinayana}

Wow,  “only used in the west”.  And that reminds me of PWT (popular western Taoism).

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Cobie

[manitou]

On 4/3/2023 at 2:24 AM, helpfuldemon said:

 

Life is desire!  Life is about wanting, and getting what you want.  If not for desire, would we have so much today?  People wanting and getting, and doing and having.  

 

There is no good or bad, there is no should.  Desire is desire whether it turns left or right, into the light or into the darkness.  We human beings seem to live at the wire tips.  We are the individual strands of the electric cord of desire, it is with desire that we contact each other.  Whichever path desire takes you on is the right path, it knows what it wants and when it wants it, lol.  It will take you through the paths it takes to make you realize who you are

[old3bob]

31 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

There is no good or bad, there is no should.  Desire is desire whether it turns left or right, into the light or into the darkness.  We human beings seem to live at the wire tips.  We are the individual strands of the electric cord of desire, it is with desire that we contact each other.  Whichever path desire takes you on is the right path, it knows what it wants and when it wants it, lol.  It will take you through the paths it takes to make you realize who you are

 

I'd say that which is beyond good and evil (or the Source if you will) and thus can not be touched by either is in or of such a Realm beyond Realms...while the rest of us souls are in karmic realms (as depicted by the Wheel of Life) ranging from or of mixes of good and evil;  to say otherwise is just kidding ourselves and those around us with high sounding concepts.

[Ajay0]

On 4/26/2023 at 5:35 PM, Taoist Texts said:

 

 The absolute contradiction between a pure mind and The Buddha-nature is emphasized in the well known 6th patriarch's gatha.

to sum it up, the pure mind is samsara. The buddha-nature is nirvana. 

 

Samsara is considered to be dukkha, suffering, and in general unsatisfactory and painful, perpetuated by desire (craving/aversion) and avidya (ignorance), and the resulting karma.

 

You state here that the pure mind is samsara or suffering, while the Buddha states that the pure mind brings happiness in its wake (Dhammapada 2). Who is speaking the truth then !  

[Ajay0]

Around 68 % of the world buddhist population adhere to Mahayana Buddhism as opposed to 32 % of Therevada , and most of the famous world figures of Buddhism, such as Bodhidharma,  Dalai Lama,  Padmasambhava, Thich Nhat Hanh, Dogen,  Hsuan Hua, Shunryu Suzuki, Nichiren Daishonin, Daisaku Ikeda,  Pema Chodron, Matthieu Ricard are similarly from Mahayana Buddhism.

 

Mahayana Buddhism, due to zen and non-effortless paths to enlightenment, is quite similar to Daoism as opposed to the austere, monistic path of Therevada which emphasizes effort.  Zen, a Mahayana tradition,  is also considered a mixture of Mahayana Buddhism and Daoism.

 

Here are some sayings of recognized Mahayana Buddhist masters on the 'buddha nature'...

 

 

Quote

 

Buddha means awareness, the awareness of body and mind that prevents evil from arising in either. ~ Bodhidharma

 

But deluded people don't realize that their own mind is the Buddha. They keep searching outside. ~  Bodhidharma

Unless you realize that your own mind is the buddha, you will be deceived by the multitude of conceptual thoughts. So realize that your own mind is the buddha!  ~  Padmasambhava

Our true buddha-nature has no shape. And the dust of affliction has no form. How can people use ordinary water to wash an intangible body? It won’t work. When will they wake up? To clean such a body you have to behold it. Once impurities and filth arise from desire, they multiply until they cover you inside and out. ~ Bodhidharma

 

Buddhism regards all living creatures as being endowed with the Buddha nature and the potential to become Buddhas. That's why Buddhism teaches us to refrain from killing and to liberate creatures instead. ~ Hsuan Hua

 

Every man possesses the Buddha-nature. Do not demean yourselves. ~  Dogen

 

” Every sentient being—even insects—have Buddha nature. The seed of Buddha means consciousness, the cognitive power—the seed of enlightenment. That’s from Buddha’s viewpoint. All these destructive things can be removed from the mind, so therefore there’s no reason to believe some sentient beings cannot become Buddha. So every sentient being has that seed.”  ~ Dalai lama

 

Sometimes you encounter people who are so pure, beautiful, and content. They give you the impression that they are divine, that they actually are saints or holy beings. What you perceive in them is their awakened self, their Buddha nature, and what they reflect back to you is your own capacity for being awake. ~  Thích Nhat Hanh

If you limit your activity to what you can do just now, in this moment, then you can express fully your true nature, which is the universal Buddha nature. ~  Shunryu Suzuki

 

“Buddha is our inherent nature—our buddha nature—and what that means is that if you're going to grow up fully, the way that it happens is that you begin to connect with the intelligence that you already have. It's not like some intelligence that's going to be transplanted into you. ~ Pema Chodron

 

One reason why this life is so precious is that all beings have within them what is called ‘tathagatagarbha’ in Sanskrit, the essence of, or potential for, buddhahood, which is the fundamental nature of all conscious beings. That nature, temporarily obscured by confusion and disturbing emotions, is like a treasure buried within us. The purpose of practicing the Buddhist path, or ‘Dharma,’ is to remove those obscurations. We are not trying to manufacture the state of buddhahood but simply to reveal what is already there...The qualities acquired on the way to enlightenment are not fabricated. They reflect the gradual reactivation of our nature, like the brilliance of a jewel covered in mud that is revealed gradually as the dirt is removed. ~ Matthieu Ricard

 

When a caged bird sings, birds who are flying in the sky are thereby summoned and gather around, and when the birds flying in the sky gather around, the bird in the cage strives to get out. When with our mouths we chant the Mystic Law, our Buddha nature, being summoned, will invariably emerge . ~ Nichiren Daishonin

 

To chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is to call out the name of the Buddha nature within us and in all living beings. It is an act of faith in this universal Buddha nature, an act of breaking through the fundamental darkness of life—our inability to acknowledge our true enlightened nature. ~ Daisaku Ikeda

 

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ajay0

[johndoe2012]

On 3.5.2023 at 7:08 AM, Ajay0 said:

Around 68 % of the world buddhist population adhere to Mahayana Buddhism as opposed to 32 % of Therevada , and most of the famous world figures of Buddhism, such as Bodhidharma,  Dalai Lama,  Padmasambhava, Thich Nhat Hanh, Dogen,  Hsuan Hua, Shunryu Suzuki, Nichiren Daishonin, Daisaku Ikeda,  Pema Chodron, Matthieu Ricard are similarly from Mahayana Buddhism.

 

Mahayana Buddhism, due to zen and non-effortless paths to enlightenment, is quite similar to Daoism as opposed to the austere, monistic path of Therevada which emphasizes effort.  Zen, a Mahayana tradition,  is also considered a mixture of Mahayana Buddhism and Daoism.

 

Here are some sayings of recognized Mahayana Buddhist masters on the 'buddha nature'...

 

 

 

Zen and Mahayana are not effortless, quite the opposite. 

 

There is no effortless path in Buddhism. 

 

[C T]

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

Zen and Mahayana are not effortless, quite the opposite. 

 

There is no effortless path in Buddhism. 

 

The poster mentioned "non-effortless"... perhaps unintentionally? Not sure. ☺️

[Lairg]

It seems to me that effort is a stress in the personality.

 

For example when I rest my spiritual intent (atma) upon achieving a particular outcome, there is no stress in the personality. 

[Ajay0]

19 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

Zen and Mahayana are not effortless, quite the opposite. 

 

There is no effortless path in Buddhism. 

 

 

'Effortless effort'  is a phrase often used in zen. Both intense effort as well as relaxation are given due importance in zen.

 

https://zenhabits.net/dao/

 

https://www.thewayofmeditation.com.au/how-to-balance-effort-effortlessness-in-meditation

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazen

 

There is a zen proverb related to Shikantaza that goes thus, 'Sitting quietly, doing nothing, spring comes and the grass grows by itself.'  

 

This saying is not exactly an endorsement of workaholism. Slowness and relaxation have its place in reducing the compulsive and habitual mental activity of thinking and emoting incessantly and feverishly. This enables increased awareness or mindfulness in the process.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Ajay0

[helpfuldemon]

There is nothing quite like satisfying a desire.  A person needs to be satisfied to want to contribute.  Satisfying a desire energizes and inspires.

[Ajay0]

An insightful saying by Ajahn Brahm on the nature of desire and freedom...

 

Quote

 

There are two kinds of freedom to be found in our world: the freedom of desires, and the freedom from desires. Our modern Western culture only recognizes the first of these, freedom of desires. It then worships such a freedom by enshrining it at the forefront of national constitutions and bills of human rights.

 

One can say that the underlying creed of most Western democracies is to protect their people's freedom to realize their desires, as far as this is possible. It is remarkable that in such countries people do not feel very free. The second kind of freedom, freedom from desires, is celebrated only in some religious communities. It celebrates contentment, peace that is free from desires. It is remarkable that in such abstemious communities like my monastery, people feel free. ~ Ajahn Brahm

 

 

 

 

 In eastern philosophy, a mind full of desires is likened to that of a slave in the sense that the person is  manipulated by his desires unconsciously even against his discretion and free will.  
 

Quote

 

 Desires make slaves out of kings and patience makes kings out of slaves. ~  Al Ghazali 

 

 

 

 

So a citizen enjoying political freedom, but filled with numerous desires and lacking self-mastery and contentment , is not free or enjoying freedom in the real sense of the term.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Ajay0

[Khun Paen]

If you like desire, then Buddhism is the perfect religion for you

 

Yellow Tara will help you get rich

 

Red Tara/Phra Ngang will bring you hot girls

 

White Tara will help you be healthy, and live a long life

 

Green Tara will remove your anxiety (xanax)

 

Manjushri will increase your IQ, and help with your studies

 

Vajrapani will give you physical strength, and the power to command other people

 

And the list goes on

 

Anything you desire, Buddhism has a mantra for it. Visualize the deity in your lower dantian while you chant. The better your concentration/samadhi, the more effective it will be. 

[Maddie]

On 4/3/2023 at 4:24 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Life is desire!  Life is about wanting, and getting what you want.  If not for desire, would we have so much today?  People wanting and getting, and doing and having.  

 

Desire might be the spice of life, but the kind that burns your mouth and makes you cry when its going in and going out. 

[SirPalomides]

On 9/5/2023 at 6:08 AM, Ajay0 said:

In eastern philosophy, a mind full of desires is likened to that of a slave in the sense that the person is  manipulated by his desires unconsciously even against his discretion and free will.  
 

 

So a citizen enjoying political freedom, but filled with numerous desires and lacking self-mastery and contentment , is not free or enjoying freedom in the real sense of the term.

 

 

Well, Al-Ghazali is a Western philosopher and is echoing Stoics here  

[SirPalomides]

And the counterpoint... Charles Fourier:

 

 

If our destiny extended no further than the wretchedness of Civilisation, God would have given us listless, apathetic passions of the sort recommended by philosophers, passions appropriate to the miserable existence of the last five thousand years. But their vitality, which we complain about, is the guarantee of our future happiness.

[Maddie]

I think when it comes to the topic of desire in Buddhism it is important to distinguish desires. The Buddha didn't say all desire was bad, thus the desire to liberate one's self is a good desire. The kinds of desire the Buddha said were problematic were sensual desires, or desires based upon the senses amongst other things. One of the reasons for this is impermanence. 

 

Nirvana is permanent, therefore does not lead to suffering. 

 

Sense desire is impermanent therefore leads to suffering.  

[Maddie]

7 hours ago, Khun Paen said:

If you like desire, then Buddhism is the perfect religion for you

 

Yellow Tara will help you get rich

 

Red Tara/Phra Ngang will bring you hot girls

 

White Tara will help you be healthy, and live a long life

 

Green Tara will remove your anxiety (xanax)

 

Manjushri will increase your IQ, and help with your studies

 

Vajrapani will give you physical strength, and the power to command other people

 

And the list goes on

 

Anything you desire, Buddhism has a mantra for it. Visualize the deity in your lower dantian while you chant. The better your concentration/samadhi, the more effective it will be. 

 

Yeah those all work pretty well. I've had good results. 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 4/27/2023 at 9:31 PM, Ajay0 said:

 

Samsara is considered to be dukkha, suffering, and in general unsatisfactory and painful, perpetuated by desire (craving/aversion) and avidya (ignorance), and the resulting karma.

 

You state here that the pure mind is samsara or suffering, while the Buddha states that the pure mind brings happiness in its wake (Dhammapada 2). Who is speaking the truth then !  
 

The experience that gave rise to Gautama's enlightenment:
 

…[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society III p 151-152)

 

So, cankers having to do with desire/aversion, becoming, and ignorance--three cankers.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 9/5/2023 at 3:08 AM, Ajay0 said:

An insightful saying by Ajahn Brahm on the nature of desire and freedom...

 

Quote

There are two kinds of freedom to be found in our world: the freedom of desires, and the freedom from desires. Our modern Western culture only recognizes the first of these, freedom of desires. It then worships such a freedom by enshrining it at the forefront of national constitutions and bills of human rights.

 

One can say that the underlying creed of most Western democracies is to protect their people's freedom to realize their desires, as far as this is possible. It is remarkable that in such countries people do not feel very free. The second kind of freedom, freedom from desires, is celebrated only in some religious communities. It celebrates contentment, peace that is free from desires. It is remarkable that in such abstemious communities like my monastery, people feel free. ~ Ajahn Brahm

 

 

 In eastern philosophy, a mind full of desires is likened to that of a slave in the sense that the person is  manipulated by his desires unconsciously even against his discretion and free will.  
 

Quote

 
Desires make slaves out of kings and patience makes kings out of slaves. ~  Al Ghazali 
 

 

So a citizen enjoying political freedom, but filled with numerous desires and lacking self-mastery and contentment , is not free or enjoying freedom in the real sense of the term.

 

 

Gautama’s teaching revolved around action, around one specific kind of action:
 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. 

 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294; emphasis added)

 

“When one determines”—when a person exercises volition, or choice, action of “deed, word, or thought” follows.
 

Gautama also spoke of “the activities”.  The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition:
 

And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.  

(SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4)

 

Gautama claimed that a ceasing of “action” is possible:
 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.  

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85; emphasis added)

 

He spoke in detail about how “the activities” come to cease:
 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.  

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

 

(A Way of Living)
 

 

The "cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving" is the cessation associated with the experience I described in my previous post, where the cankers find an end.

Now I think we arrive at the crux of the matter.  There's sensual desire, and there's desire for abiding in the trance states, which from the above one might assume to be an appropriate and beneficial desire to have.  Gautama found both desires a cause of suffering.  The trance states, he said, are attained through lack of desire, by means of lack of desire. 

That's also why Gautama spoke of right view, right purpose, and right effort “that has cankers, that is on the side of merit, that ripens unto cleaving (to new birth)”, and right view, right purpose, and right effort which is “[noble], supermundane, cankerless and a component of the way” (MN III 71-78, Vol III pg 113-121).  Depending on whether you had the benefit of "perfect wisdom", or not.

 

Not possible to cease the exercise of "determinate thought" that gives rise to action by the exercise of "determinate thought", that's why Gautama chose his words carefully, and why Zen in some traditions emphasizes transmission outside of scripture.
 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.
 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Mark Foote