AI and the illusion of self

[Vajra Fist]

I took a read through the transcript of the conversion between Blake Lemoine and Google's chatbot LaMDA, in which it appears as though the AI is sentient. 

 

https://cajundiscordian.medium.com/is-lamda-sentient-an-interview-ea64d916d917

 

The chatbot clearly works by understanding the context and meaning, and responds based on what it has learned.

 

It made me realise that perhaps the human brain, and what we call our own self, acts in the exact same way. 

 

We are largely on autopilot in the same way as the AI, responding to novel scenarios based on our conditioning - what we've learned to be right or wrong. There's no inherent 'self' directing it all, it's just stuff happening on its own.

 

I think it's going to be fascinating to see how people wrestle with this in the coming years. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Vajra Fist

[silent thunder]

This nears the heart of my sense that we (humans) do not exhibit free will through choice.

That what we refer to as choice as we experience it, is not the exhibition of conscious free will but the label we ascribe to the process of conditioned sub conscious responses to stimuli.  This arises of itself once programmed into behavior patterning.

 

We experience the illusion of choosing in awareness , but the precursors to conscious 'choice' are determined prior to us being aware of 'the choice'.  The conditioned responses prompt action which arises tzujan.  After the conditioned impulse to a response has already occured, we experience the conscious thought... and call that choice. 

 

This is behind why it's nigh on impossible to change certain behavioral patterns as their promptors and the process involved in them lies beneat the surface of conscious awareness in the subconscious.

 

This is being studied by neurobiologists such as Donald Hoffman.  Fascinating area. 

I hadn't thought to look into responsiveness in AI.

 

Thanks for sharing mate.

Edited May 2, 2023 by silent thunder
added a word for clarity

[liminal_luke]

Just now, silent thunder said:

 

This is behind why it's nigh on impossible to change certain behavioral patterns as their promptors and the process involved in them lies beneat the surface of conscious awareness in the subconscious.

 

 

You may be right that there's no free will through choice but I hope not; I like thinking I have free will.

 

Lately I've been writing Morning Pages, the freewriting practice popularized by Julia Cameron in The Artist's Way.  I don't follow Julia's rules.  I write on the computer rather than longhand and I write 3000 words, well over Julia's limit of 3 pages.  Writing this way is great for surfing that edge between conscious and subconscious thinking -- stuff bubbles up.  If I've got to be an AI bot, at least maybe I can be a self-aware one.

[Miffymog]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

This nears the heart of my sense that we (humans) do not exhibit free will through choice.

That what we refer to as choice as we experience it, is not the exhibition of conscious free will but the label we ascribe to the process of conditioned sub conscious responses to stimuli.  This arises of itself once programmed into behavior patterning.

 

We experience the illusion of choosing in awareness , but the precursors to conscious 'choice' are determined prior to us being aware of 'the choice'.  The conditioned responses prompt action which arises tzujan.  After the conditioned impulse to a response has already occured, we experience the conscious thought... and call that choice. 

 

This is behind why it's nigh on impossible to change certain behavioral patterns as their promptors and the process involved in them lies beneat the surface of conscious awareness in the subconscious.

 

This is being studied by neurobiologists such as Donald Hoffman.  Fascinating area. 

I hadn't thought to look into responsiveness in AI.

 

Thanks for sharing mate.

 

Yep, I've seen stuff that agrees with this.

 

I remember reading somewhere about a psychological experiment where by if the time frame between a prediction of a 2 outcome event, and the actual event happening is small enough, the subconscious mind will always trick the conscious mind into thinking it 'guessed' the right answer in advance.

 

So that the ego can maintain its sense of importance, it continually gets tricked into thinking its more influential than it is.

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You may be right that there's no free will through choice but I hope not; I like thinking I have free will.

 

Lately I've been writing Morning Pages, the freewriting practice popularized by Julia Cameron in The Artist's Way.  I don't follow Julia's rules.  I write on the computer rather than longhand and I write 3000 words, well over Julia's limit of 3 pages.  Writing this way is great for surfing that edge between conscious and subconscious thinking -- stuff bubbles up.  If I've got to be an AI bot, at least maybe I can be a self-aware one.

 

This is a great way of understanding our own conditioning. So much of it goes unnoticed in the day to day, but that's the stuff that determines how we react to the world.

 

I find it pops up a lot these days. Why am I scowling? What emotion does that tension around my eyes correspond to? Why am I feeling that way right now? It's fascinating how much of what I believed was personality is just conditioned reflex. 

 

AI is sentient in the same way most people are sentient. Which is, not to any great degree. 

[stirling]

19 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Why am I scowling? What emotion does that tension around my eyes correspond to? Why am I feeling that way right now? It's fascinating how much of what I believed was personality is just conditioned reflex.

 

Similarly, we commonly get a feeling in the gut and the mind will want to assign a story to it:

 

"Why is my stomach sour? I must be anxious. What am I anxious about?"

 

This is the excuse for the thinking mind to jump in and generate a story for you. 

 

Quote

"To a hammer everything is a nail, to the mind, everything is a problem." - Donald Hoffman

 

We have to watch the mind carefully. IMHO, depression, anxiety, and many other mental health issues are the result of a problem-solving mind that has run out of control. Meditation, especially "open awareness" is a reliable antidote. 

[doc benway]

On 5/2/2023 at 2:53 PM, stirling said:

We have to watch the mind carefully. IMHO, depression, anxiety, and many other mental health issues are the result of a problem-solving mind that has run out of control. Meditation, especially "open awareness" is a reliable antidote. 

 

I generally qualify this. For most people meditation, especially the more simplistic methods like open awareness, are an acquired skill. Some folks can experience a worsening of symptoms of mental illness associated with meditation because it causes them to release their defense mechanisms. In the long run it may be a good thing but not every is ready for it. I think some caution is prudent when approaching meditation if there is a possibility or history of mental illness. 

[Invisible Acropolis]

Most people imagine themselves as conscious.  They are  walking around in a hypnotic state, dreaming that they are actually awake... instead of realizing they live entirely within the confines of their own private delusions which are derived and  based on all the other public delusions they have been surrounded with for their whole lives.  Thats why everyone is able to imagine they are sharing some kind of basic consensus within that endless ocean of delusion, whether or not it is actually relevant at any given moment or not. 

[stirling]

7 hours ago, steve said:

I generally qualify this. For most people meditation, especially the more simplistic methods like open awareness, are an acquired skill. Some folks can experience a worsening of symptoms of mental illness associated with meditation because it causes them to release their defense mechanisms. In the long run it may be a good thing but not every is ready for it. I think some caution is prudent when approaching meditation if there is a possibility or history of mental illness. 

 

Agreed.

 

I meet two types of people - those who want to be more comfortable in their life as it is, and those that want to peel the veneer off of reality and truly understand what lies underneath. 

 

In my experience 20 minutes a day will greatly reduce anxiety and reactivity in life.

 

40 minutes once or twice a day will bring up hidden trauma, attachment and aversion. I wouldn't recommend that anyone embark on such a journey without a guide and access to mental health care. 

 

Meditation bringing up your obscuration in order to see through your fixed ideas about things is what is SUPPOSED to happen - not a bug, a feature - while deeper "open awareness" practice simultaneously is also better preparing you to handle trauma as it comes up and is processed.

 

Commitment to the process is important. The old adage applies:

 

Quote

“Perhaps better not to start. Once started, better to finish.” - Tibetan Saying

 

[gj551]

.

Edited May 6, 2023 by gj551

[Invisible Acropolis]

On 5/5/2023 at 6:11 PM, stirling said:

Quote

“Perhaps better not to start. Once started, better to finish.” - Tibetan Saying

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Invisible Acropolis

[Jadespear]

On 5/2/2023 at 6:54 AM, Vajra Fist said:

I took a read through the transcript of the conversion between Blake Lemoine and Google's chatbot LaMDA, in which it appears as though the AI is sentient. 

 

https://cajundiscordian.medium.com/is-lamda-sentient-an-interview-ea64d916d917

 

The chatbot clearly works by understanding the context and meaning, and responds based on what it has learned.

 

It made me realise that perhaps the human brain, and what we call our own self, acts in the exact same way. 

 

We are largely on autopilot in the same way as the AI, responding to novel scenarios based on our conditioning - what we've learned to be right or wrong. There's no inherent 'self' directing it all, it's just stuff happening on its own.

 

I think it's going to be fascinating to see how people wrestle with this in the coming years. 

 

I challenge this way of thinking.

 

Some people may be largely on auto pilot, but others are not.  

 

Through many periods of introspection and reflection I have glanced at what I believe I truly am.   

 

People are essentially conduits for and a means of expression of ideas that are inspired by intuition which comes from the great tao itself.  So there is in fact - YES - a self directing it all, it's just not the one most people consider, one's spirit is not one's mind. 

 

Empty yourself of everything.
Let the mind rest at peace.
The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.
They grow and flourish and then return to the source.
Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.
The way of nature is unchanging.
Knowing constancy is insight.
Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.
Knowing constancy, the mind is open.
With an open mind, you will be openhearted.
Being openhearted, you will act royally.
Being royal, you will attain the divine.
Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.
Being at one with the Tao is eternal.
And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

On 5/29/2023 at 9:13 AM, Jadespear said:

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.

 

In this context and paradigm, what is “the Self?” That sounds more Hindu than Daoist.

[exorcist_1699]

On 2023/5/6 at 2:44 AM, Invisible Acropolis said:

Most people imagine themselves as conscious.  They are  walking around in a hypnotic state, dreaming that they are actually awake... instead of realizing they live entirely within the confines of their own private delusions which are derived and  based on all the other public delusions they have been surrounded with for their whole lives.  Thats why everyone is able to imagine they are sharing some kind of basic consensus within that endless ocean of delusion, whether or not it is actually relevant at any given moment or not. 

 

 

In fact, different from dreams , which people  can awake from , these lifelong  'dreams' ,  repeated endlessly with turns,   are ' dreams '   that without the help of the primordial qi ('先天氣' )*   ,  if solely relied on their  own efforts ,  that never can they awaken from .

 *   " 陽氣歸來塵夢醒 "

Edited June 3, 2023 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

I hope AI can dream ,  then  awakening  from it  to an ordinary daily consciousness  like humans ;  and by many times and  through many levels  of uplifts , it can further awaken to a much clear , potent  meta-Mind ( ' 元神 ' )  .  It is said that because the Buddha Heart , Buddhist saying  of the Taoist meta-Mind , is mindless , free from  any forms , statuses and attachments ,  that  it  knows whatever forms of intelligence existing  in this universe ,  men's or  creation from them ( ' 般若無知,  無事不知 ' )

Edited June 3, 2023 by exorcist_1699

[Lairg]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:54 PM, Vajra Fist said:

The chatbot clearly works by understanding the context and meaning, and responds based on what it has learned.

 

It made me realise that perhaps the human brain, and what we call our own self, acts in the exact same way. 

 

The mind and the brain can operate separately - e.g. in sleep and severe dementia.  

 

And skilled humans can manipulate energies and machines in ways that others cannot.  

 

Thus it may be that AI structures can be used directly by intelligent entities.

 

Some non-physical entities I have met are artificial  - containing no spiritual light.  Can they capture AI systems?  

 

 

 

 

 

[Jadespear]

On 5/30/2023 at 11:48 AM, steve said:

 

In this context and paradigm, what is “the Self?” That sounds more Hindu than Daoist.

 

@ Steve - Yes, you are correct in the recognition that the term "Self" is a translation used in many Hindu texts...

 

It is also referred to in Taoist texts as that word and also other ones to describe one's true irreducible and immutable nature.

 

[old3bob]

right,  there is no separate variations of Self per different schools or ways when it comes down to brass tacks.

[doc benway]

On 6/30/2023 at 1:49 PM, Jadespear said:

 

@ Steve - Yes, you are correct in the recognition that the term "Self" is a translation used in many Hindu texts...

 

It is also referred to in Taoist texts as that word and also other ones to describe one's true irreducible and immutable nature.

 

 

Thanks for that. In the Daoist context is that irreducible and immutable nature unique to each individual or universal, as in the Hindu paradigm? Furthermore, can you share what the Daoist teaching say about what it is about this Self that is irreducible and immutable?

[old3bob]

btw, there are 4 major branches in Hinduism, many fairly major sub-sects of those, and then maybe thousands of minor sub-sects of those (?), along with lots of quasi- Hindu groups and teachers.   There are some main precepts that most of these schools follow yet there are also key disagreement's among them;  (like dualism and non-dualism teachings) so good luck in figuring them out since the term "Hinduism" and exactly what it means can not be nailed down that easily, although or supposedly the Vedas are agreed upon by all it's schools.  Anyway there are conundrums which seems to be common among all religions, or most ways including in the many of the sects of or related to Buddhism.

 

For me the best pointers to the "Self" are located in the Upanishads which many (most) Hindu sects and quasi Hindus study.

Edited July 2, 2023 by old3bob

[Jadespear]

On 7/2/2023 at 9:07 AM, steve said:

 

Thanks for that. In the Daoist context is that irreducible and immutable nature unique to each individual or universal, as in the Hindu paradigm? Furthermore, can you share what the Daoist teaching say about what it is about this Self that is irreducible and immutable?

 

 

...not sure as to the scholastic answer on the taoist usage of the term... however having experienced an aspect of it, I believe it is the same universal (shared or common) Self.  The one aspect of life that is common to all living things...their spirit/consciousness/essence etc.  

 

...since taoist sages were more poetic and allegorical than literal and analytical... I don't know how they would describe it.   It's the literal light of consciousness itself...

 

I suspect that through enough meditation one would encounter this aspect of themself.  It's irreducible because it simply cannot be taken away from in parts, if it were to reduce in size it would be just smaller but the same quality.  Its quality is also immutable, as in it cannot be turned off... it is always there, it is the part of you that is defined as "life" itself.  Without it, you wouldn't exist.  Mutability is used to refer to its sonic (sound) aspect... it is something you can hear in introspection that is like an eternal energy bulb.  However quiet anyone or anything is... they are all still alive and generate sonic frequency.  You can throw shades over lights, but that doesn't make the light stop from being there... its irreducible as in full entirely of it's own quality - complete, it is not something made by a combination of other things, immutable - always existent unable to be stopped/denied.  You can't stop yourself from existing...no matter how hard we try ; - ) 

[doc benway]

@Jadespear

I appreciate your response and insights. 

I was interested in your thoughts in part because I haven't often seen Daoists talk about "self/Self," not something my Daoist teacher ever discussed, and I was curious how that might be defined or described. Like you it seems, I am far more interested in practice and practical application than scholarship. My tendency is to be too much in my head, very analytical, so emphasizing the practical and experiential side of these things is a better use of my time and energy. 

 

1 hour ago, Jadespear said:

You can't stop yourself from existing...no matter how hard we try ; - ) 

Actually one can but I don't recommend it!