I - Ching

[Tao Boxer]

Hi,

I realize this is no small/easy question, but......

 

I was wondering if anyone could tell me about the TRUE purpose of the I - Ching ?

 

 

Thanks

[Patrick Brown]

It is a mystic system for understanding the cyclical nature of the manifest universe and is an expansion of the eight diagrams. At any point in time we are are somewhere on the eternal cycle and knowing where you are helps you supposedly predict the future although some might suggest that's folly. Of course because the cycle is everything it can be applied to a year or a split second. The I Ching is also used as a teaching to learn how to move in harmony with the universe and is the second most important book in Taoism to the Tao Te Ching although some may disagree with that.

 

I actually don't study the I Ching so I'm sure others will have much more insight than me.

 

[Taomeow]

Hi,

I realize this is no small/easy question, but......

 

I was wondering if anyone could tell me about the TRUE purpose of the I - Ching ?

Thanks

I could try, but first you would have to tell me what it is you see as the "false" purpose of the I Ching?

[doc benway]

Hi,

I realize this is no small/easy question, but......

 

I was wondering if anyone could tell me about the TRUE purpose of the I - Ching ?

Thanks

How would we know if an answer to your question was the "true" purpose?

I think Patrick's answer was pretty good although I wouldn't try to rank written works in terms of importance in Daoism.

[Tao Boxer]

Thanks for responding, perhaps I should have stated it's main purpose.

I mean that the I Ching is used more than just predicting the future right ?

How can it lead us spiritually ?

[Taomeow]

Thanks for responding, perhaps I should have stated it's main purpose.

I mean that the I Ching is used more than just predicting the future right ?

How can it lead us spiritually ?

I recommend Ta Chuan, "The Great Treatise," for the taoist "explanation";

Terence McKenna's interpretation of the I Ching as the most profound study of the phenomena of Time ever undertaken;

Francis F. Yan's "DNA and the I Ching" that reveals its relevance to genetics;

and above all, I recommend using it for divination in all seriousness, with respect, in humbleness, on a table covered with silk cloth, your hands washed and scraped before you handle it, ditto your mind... Try it and see what you can learn.

 

The true purpose of the I Ching is to make you whole.

[Buddy]

It's an exposition on the process of change. With or without the silk cloth and clean hands.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Buddy

[Taomeow]

It's an exposition on the process of change. With or without the silk cloth and clean hands.

No, clean hands are a must -- the process of change refuses to get exposed to filth.

[YMWong]

No, clean hands are a must -- the process of change refuses to get exposed to filth.

 

Master Tung-kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way-where does it exist?"

Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist."

"Come," said Master Tung-kuo, "you must be more specific!"

"It is in the ant."

"As low a thing as that?"

"It is in the panic grass."

"But that's lower still!"

"It is in the tiles and shards."

"How can it be so low?"

"It is in the piss and shit."

 

YM

[Taomeow]

Master Tung-kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way-where does it exist?"

Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist."

"Come," said Master Tung-kuo, "you must be more specific!"

"It is in the ant."

"As low a thing as that?"

"It is in the panic grass."

"But that's lower still!"

"It is in the tiles and shards."

"How can it be so low?"

"It is in the piss and shit."

 

YM

 

It certainly exists there, it's just that traditionally, these substances haven't been used for divination -- at least not by the same people who used the I Ching for the purpose.

 

If you go to a restaurant, I think you would have some objections if they served you food that had been already eaten by someone the night before. Imagine a Chuangzian waiter who would serve you something scooped out of a toilet on the basis of the Way being in those to the same extent as in the steak and beer.

 

The reason I mentioned the preliminaries to the divination the way I did is that I don't engage in cultural colonialism. If I am going to use taoist tools, I am going to respect them enough to use them exactly the way they were used by their creators, or as close to "exactly" as my best effort can possibly take me. This is cultural courtesy, cultural gratitude, and cultural respect. Without these I don't handle what isn't my own creation, my own spiritual property, my own human accomplishment. Do you?..

[Taomeow]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/zaz...largeanim-2.gif

[YMWong]

If I am going to use taoist tools, I am going to respect them enough to use them exactly the way they were used by their creators, or as close to "exactly" as my best effort can possibly take me.

 

Would you be so kind as to provide concrete reference to the relationship between

 

"clean hands are a must"

 

and

 

"exactly the way they were used by their creators"

 

as I am not aware of any, thou of course I may be wrong

 

YM

[Taomeow]

Would you be so kind as to provide concrete reference to the relationship between

 

"clean hands are a must"

 

and

 

"exactly the way they were used by their creators"

 

as I am not aware of any, thou of course I may be wrong

 

YM

John Blofeld, I Ching: The Book of Changes, 1965, for the first part -- this was the first one that just came up on google, but it's actually common knowledge among those who engage in divination of any kind with any seriousness. Many will insist on a more thorough purification ritual, a bath with special herbal decoctions, clean clothes, and a meditation or ritual or at least three kowtows. Make some Chinese friends raised in, or with elements of, the taoist tradition (not from mainland China though, maoists had made it illegal to practice and the new generation is not fully recovered from the interruption) -- I have several -- and ask them if the family had the I Ching transmitted from generation to generation, and if they did, ask them if they remember how it was handled.

 

For the second part, please refer to Hetu, Luoshu, and the Ta Chuan explanation. Then, since the I Ching always expects whoever touches it to do some spiritual homework and will never give you one hundred percent of the answer, use this information to make your own decision as to which methods are both available and legit of the following:

tortoise shell;

bone oracle;

yarrow stalks;

three coins;

joss sticks;

I Ching cards;

online I Ching.

 

Good luck!

[YMWong]

John Blofeld, I Ching: The Book of Changes, 1965

 

With all due respect to you and Blofeld, I see we have different opinions about what makes a 'concrete reference' in Daoism and daoist studies.

 

No problem of course, to each their own

 

Best

 

YM

[Taomeow]

With all due respect to you and Blofeld, I see we have different opinions about what makes a 'concrete reference' in Daoism and daoist studies.

 

No problem of course, to each their own

 

Best

 

YM

There's five shens comprizing the Greater Shen in taoist psychophysiology (and in TCM following in its footsteps). One of them, known as the Heart shen of Lesser shen, is responsible for connecting the Greater Shen properly to the world of space and time and other people. It is behind one's ability to look people in the eye, among other things, and respond to questions with answers that make sense. The virtue of the Heart Shen is li, translated as ceremony, ritual, or propriety. If it is healthy, the person's behavior is characterized by a proper demeanor and style. If it is disturbed, its virtue is lost, and behavior can range from frequent failures at common courtesy to full-blown psychosis, with many in-betweens.

 

What I'm driving at is, someone with a healthy Heart Shen knows the "propriety" of approaching the I Ching in a certain style simply because it is one of the normal functions of this spirit, its main virtue, to grasp it spontaneously. When it functions in a normal manner, it ensures a kind of spiritual "posture" that is aligned correctly with the object (or subject) of interaction. And if it doesn't... but surely it does in you, right?.. so you can explain what that opinion you have about what constitutes a "concrete reference" that is different from mine actually is, and why is it exactly that mine doesn't meet your standards? Maybe I can do better next time then, once I know what your specs actually are?

[YMWong]

so you can explain what that opinion you have about what constitutes a "concrete reference" that is different from mine actually is, and why is it exactly that mine doesn't meet your standards? Maybe I can do better next time then, once I know what your specs actually are?

 

Since you mentioned that the requirement "clean hands are a must" was something that had direct connection with the Daoists ("used by their creators") I was expecting a reference to a Scripture, an original source, an oral transmission from a reputable lineage or at least a similar reference translated by a known scholar.

 

Your quoting Blofeld and suggesting me to look out for some "chinese friends" (not mainlanders who are brainwashed) simply shows we have a different background and it's hard to communicate.

 

Thanks in any case

 

YM

[Patrick Brown]

The I Ching is just a book and religion is a control mechanism. It's more important to have an intuitive respect for all things thus the great man (woman / person) does not strive for more than he needs and treats others as he would like to be treated. When words are left behind clarity can grow when words are embraced confusion arises.

 

Divination only takes you away from the moment and fuels the desire for things to be other than what they are. Each day the great man takes less and receives more finding fulfilment in simplicity and doing only what needs to be done.

 

The I Ching is the shadow of the eight diagrams and the eight diagrams are a conceptualisation of the Yin Yang (Tai Chi / The supreme Ultimate). By studying the Yin Yang the nature of all things is revealed, by practising the Yin Yang the rhythm of the flow is learned and becoming the flow one attains to the harmony and bliss of the way.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[Taomeow]

Since you mentioned that the requirement "clean hands are a must" was something that had direct connection with the Daoists ("used by their creators") I was expecting a reference to a Scripture, an original source, an oral transmission from a reputable lineage or at least a similar reference translated by a known scholar.

 

Your quoting Blofeld and suggesting me to look out for some "chinese friends" (not mainlanders who are brainwashed) simply shows we have a different background and it's hard to communicate.

 

Thanks in any case

 

YM

Um... thanks, now I understand. Indeed, it shows a difficulty in communication but it doesn't actually inform you of my background at all -- nor me of yours. Matter of fact, I could find all of the above for you, but it's only my teachers who can assign homework that I will spend time and effort completing -- online forums, nah, I don't go to all the trouble. If you look at Patrick's entry below yours, you can appreciate why.

[Patrick Brown]

Good grief!

[Procurator]

Since you mentioned that the requirement "clean hands are a must" was something that had direct connection with the Daoists ("used by their creators") I was expecting a reference to a Scripture, an original source, an oral transmission from a reputable lineage or at least a similar reference translated by a known scholar.

 

 

the coprolalic newagee going throu the motions of washing hands and silk looks even more idiotic than usual if one recalls that the early i-jing was done often on occasion of human sacrifice, lines were inscribied on a bloody cow scapula and read from a grimy burned bone. clean hands, right.

[Taomeow]

.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Taomeow

[Buddy]

"No, clean hands are a must -- the process of change refuses to get exposed to filth."

 

I can only agree with Pro, change happens whether you like it or not, whether you want to participate in it or not, whether you shit your pants and wash in it or not. Silly ritual is for silly ritualists.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Buddy

[Taomeow]

Good grief!

Nothing personal, what I meant was that your take on divination in its totality, which you find without merit, wouldn't change if I added any bigger/better/different references to its technicalities... wouldn't you agree?.. I would love to discuss the I Ching divination with anyone who practices it or intends to learn how to... but after years of living with this book and having experienced its tangible help, its guidance in pulling me through the hardest of times... ...shrug. So... no grief... you shrugged it off, I shrugged off your shrug... at least we keep our shoulders loose.

[Patrick Brown]

[Guest allan]