Life is suffering.

[helpfuldemon]

What a terrible thing to say!  What good is life, then, if it is all suffering?  What is good about it, in the end?  Certainly life is not just suffering! Life is joy and love and adventure too!  

[helpfuldemon]

I get it, y'know?  All those things are temporary pleasures that don't provide any more security against the inevitability of death and illness.  We enjoy them and want more of them, but we are never satisfied with how much we get.  So the alternative is...?  To sit in silence and watch life fade away?  I don't see that as being much better of a solution.

[Mandrake]

4 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

What a terrible thing to say!  What good is life, then, if it is all suffering?  What is good about it, in the end?  Certainly life is not just suffering! Life is joy and love and adventure too!  

 

This is not what the original Buddhist scriptures say. I assume you associate your conclusions with Buddhism as we are in this subforum. But in reality, these are just bad, mangled misinterpretations that came along with Buddhism's entry into the Western world in the 19-20th century, because people didn't understand the tenets well enough, nor were good translators.

 

 

M

[silent thunder]

When your friend is pointing to the Moon.

Don't look at their finger.

[Ajay0]

On 5/17/2023 at 2:50 PM, helpfuldemon said:

What a terrible thing to say!  What good is life, then, if it is all suffering?  What is good about it, in the end?  Certainly life is not just suffering! Life is joy and love and adventure too!  

 

 All objective pleasures results in pain and misery in the long run, due to the factors of saturation or impermanence. 

 

The wise man thus would be anchored in the Buddha nature/ pure mind which would be a source of constant peace and happiness for him or her.  He will enjoy the pleasures of the world and at the same time would be detached from them, not slavishly attached.

 

It is in slavish attachment that sensory pleasures start to become a source of suffering. 

 

On 5/17/2023 at 6:11 PM, helpfuldemon said:

I get it, y'know?  All those things are temporary pleasures that don't provide any more security against the inevitability of death and illness.  We enjoy them and want more of them, but we are never satisfied with how much we get.  So the alternative is...?  To sit in silence and watch life fade away?  I don't see that as being much better of a solution.

 

The focus is on seeing the transient nature of all sensory objects and pleasures, and using this philosophical understanding to detach from them rather than being inordinately attached to them. One enjoys such pleasures for entertainment, and at the same time can detach from them at will.

 

Those who cannot do so, end up as obsessed, imbalanced people like  sex addicts, alcoholics, gambling addicts, gluttons, shopaholics and so on, and who then seek treatment for the same.

 

This obsession with external pleasures and objects would be a sort of compensation for the perceived lack of peace and joy within oneself, but which ironically is a characteristic of the natural state or pure mind, freely available to every human being.

 

It is similar to the analogy of a beggar seeking alms from passerbys, while ignorantly sitting on a box containing large diamonds.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Ajay0

[doc benway]

I think we often misunderstand the message here, or maybe focus on a limited aspect that’s frightening. I don’t feel like I am being told I must suffer, or that there is no hope. I am being reminded that they are suffering. The people I come into contact, and particularly into conflict with, are suffering. And btw if we’re honest with ourselves we all suffer at times, so there is truth in that… This gives us an opportunity to feel empathy, to connect and to help each other. This is our best hope to not suffer. It’s all about perspective.

[liminal_luke]

On 5/17/2023 at 2:20 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Certainly life is not just suffering! Life is joy and love and adventure too!  

 

Within the context of Buddhist thought, suffering has a particular definition and, like @steve has said, it's often misunderstood.  Ironically, it's my unscientific opinion that serious Buddhist practictioners suffer much less than average.  

 

But putting Buddhism aside for a moment, I love what helpfuldemon is saying here.  Our brains tend to focus on the negative and it's easy to get bogged down in despair.  What a relief it is to recognize that there's good in life as well!   

Edited May 20, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Lairg]

The suffering/adversity, although difficult, requires humans to control and refine their personalities (persona=mask) before exercising much of their spiritual authority.  

 

That may be an important protection for the planet and humanity

 

 

[C T]

The core teachings lead to the revelation that bliss is fundamental to life. It is ignorance of this truth that binds one to habitually revel in dualistic thoughts, assumptions, beliefs and so on, resulting in wrong views, leading to some such notions as seen in the OP. 

[johndoe2012]

From https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/index.html

 

Quote

And what is the cause by which dukkha comes into play? Craving is the cause by which dukkha comes into play

 

So suffering (dukkha) is caused by craving. End of craving is end of suffering. 

 

End of craving is done by following the Buddhist teachings. Basically it is knowing your own mind by mindfulness and seeing the craving in action. 

[Lairg]

15 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

End of craving is end of suffering. 

 

A guy was complaining to me that his thoughts were being interfered with.   He was craving freedom of thought.

 

Another very thin fellow was eating huge amounts.  Eventually I "saw" that he had an energy parasite.  When he got rid of it, his appetite for food was normal. 

 

So the question may be:  how does craving occur?

 

 

 

 

 

[centertime]

Suffering may come

- when the body does not work well , its tense or in pain

-when your brain does not work well, external stimuli affects you too much. I think there is a dampening mechanism in brain which lessens the external responses. If that does not work. you freak out at everything.. because it is like having no skin. Everything affacts you deeply

-making mistakes.. making bad decisions because acting too fast or because of inexperience.

-random events.. or  from other people's mistakes

-not having enough exercise, sleep, not taking care ofthe body sufficiently

-being in a difficult environment 

-too much stress, environment changes too fast, too much change.

 

 

[silent thunder]

Suffering in my experience of it, is a crisis of perception.  Of mis-identification.  An attempt to reject or try and avoid what is.  I spent many years in crippling pain and for many terror filled days I was consumed in suffering over being crippled, or just from the agony of physical pain. 

 

For several years there was nothing visibly wrong, then when diagnosis was possible, the treatment left many years more of pain from the corrective procedure.  I lived in a constant state of suffering from the issue and the treatment.  (i despise pain killer's affects on my psyche) so even the temporary relief from the physical torment was a trade for a mental despising of the fog induced by frequent use of heavy meds.

 

Then one moment, in the midst of suffering... a lightning strike of vajra shattered awareness into sudden, irrefutable, irreversable realization.

 

There will be discomfort, there may be pain. 

This does not mean I must suffer.

 

bam... just that... out of the unsought aether, that thought rose to my awareness and shifted my paradigm.  It bears out as i write this.

 

In  mind-body, there will occasionally be discomfort.  There may also be outright pain.  This does not mean i must suffer.  Pain and discomfort may be unavoidable, yet Suffering is optional.^{to me}

 

My relationship to suffering and pain in particular shifted that day and now that the toothpaste is out of that tube, it's not gone back in.

 

 

As an expression of this in addition to my rather tepid expression above.

A friend of mine is dying.  It's been going on for about a year now, progressively becoming more acute.

 

He's got a malfunctioning thyroid ^{somewhat in control} and his digestive system is seemingly eating itself from within^{similar to what my wife is experiencing} which is exacerbated by the medicine treating the thyroid condition.  The digestive issue has resisted all treatments for correction, shows no signs of slowing and he's run the course of modern and sidereal knowledge and options.  No dietary changes have brought improvement.  Nothing in the realm of medicine is an aid.  In bluntest terms, he is literally vomitting and shitting himself to death.  And yet, he's entirely ok. 

 

And he is blissful, and gentle and loving. 

A cuddly, warm, joyful being. And occasionally, a grumpy being.

 

He is however, not suffering.  

 

Not even in the midst of the rhythmic arrivals of piercing pain throughout his abdomen.

He longs seemingly only to be together and simply share space and time with those he loves. 

And love he does.

 

He is revealing himself as an icon of inspiration to me as this process unfolds.  Particularly given my little glimpse into the voluntary or self inflicted nature of suffering i realized in my process.

 

Life is life.  Death is life.  Dying is living... and suffering... is entirely optional.

Edited May 21, 2023 by silent thunder
reworded something for clarity

[dontknwmucboutanythng]

Hello,

 

I am really bad at sophisticated/deep thinking,  could you please elaborate on how is "suffering ... optional",  especially illness related suffering?

 

Lots of thanks!

 

> Life is life.  Death is life.  Dying is living... and suffering... is entirely optional.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, dontknwmucboutanythng said:

Hello,

 

I am really bad at sophisticated/deep thinking,  could you please elaborate on how is "suffering ... optional",  especially illness related suffering?

 

Lots of thanks!

 

> Life is life.  Death is life.  Dying is living... and suffering... is entirely optional.

 

I am really  bad at suffering .   

 

meaning I have not had to endure much of it .  But still, compared to other  'privileged' people around me , they seem to have a very low level of endurance .   I am allergic to pain meds as well ... and thank God for that !   I know, have felt and see what meds like 'endone' do to people and the community is RIFE with it to the extent that it now pollutes the environment   after going through the human systems ( via sewerage )  eg,  there is high level of it (and anti-depressants ) in Sydney Harbor .

 

So a few years back I had a total hip replacement and had to go through recovery on  panadol .  The doctors said I could NOT to that and HAD to have something like endone .   Well, I didnt . 

 

I got through it by going into the pain, accepting it and realizing it was a healing process * and thinking ....  I am not in pain ... sure  MY BODY is .... or my hip is  ( or one's foot or arm might be in pain )  , but actually, I , my spirit and psychology  are great ! ( and that helps immensely too .)

 

* but that is regenerating pain .... feels a lot better than degeneration pain !

 

Anyway , I have this 'sleeping condition' that might stay asleep or wake up . Doc tells me if it wakes up 'end' could be near , He, in confidence, supports my decision to not medicate for it  ; "You dont seem the  type to want to take drugs that will effect your state and mood just to prolong your life a few years in a hospital bed ? "

 

No way !  I supremely value my state and revel  in my 'psychiatric condition '  (  Eudemonia ) .   - I actually worked it all out a lot better the other day ( after a conversation with some 'angels '  )   .... the plan is set in motion.    When its time , I am going for a looooong motorcycle ride   way out into the desert ..... one way ... as far as I can go on the gas I take ,  a few days food and water . . . .   and lay down amongst the Pinnacles , where the stars meet the Earth

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even Death itself need not be suffering .

 

"  I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy ... "

 

 

 

 

.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Nungali

[doc benway]

11 minutes ago, Nungali said:

So a few years back I had a total hip replacement and had to go through recovery on  panadol .  The doctors said I could NOT to that and HAD to have something like endone .   Well, I didnt . 

 

A friend of mine had a hip replacement and his doc gave him a scrip for oxycodone.

He came back to see doc a week later and gave him the full bottle of oxy.

Doc says, how did you deal with the pain?

Mike says - 

 

[Nungali]

Well , yeah  ... but I didnt want to say that here  ....

 

Daobums being so 'straight' and all that  

 

Pot and panadol is a surprisingly good combo .

 

Its nice your friend took the drugs back to the doc ... now the doc can resell them again to some junkies or kids in the street .

 

( I think I told you about my efforts to not only defray  the 'oxy' they where trying to load me up with - meaning they kept giving me scripts in hospital  to take home for refills -  probaly 4 times ... AFTER I proved to them I was allergic and got a red allergy band on my wrist . Going ballistic on them while a patient and being told to calm down by the nurse   didnt work, when I unpacked my bags at home ,  they had slipped an extra TWO scripts in there  both with 4 refills .  WTF !    They knew I could NOT take them .... maybe they expected me to fill the scripts and sell the drugs  on the street ?         

Edited May 21, 2023 by Nungali

[silent thunder]

8 hours ago, dontknwmucboutanythng said:

could you please elaborate on how is "suffering ... optional",  especially illness related suffering?

 

Don't expect my intellect has the capacity to understand the how of it.  My little mind expects aspects of life such as these lie beyond the ken of words to describe. 

 

The realization simply arose in awareness, just as all of them have in my life, spontaneously, tzujan.  Whether from within, or without i no longer try to distinguish.  But like Vajra, its veracity struck my awareness like a bolt of lightning and my paradigm of perception shifted irrevocably into the diamond it has remained. 

 

 

For me, the realization arose in the midst of deep suffering due to pain and the mental worry of would I ever be whole and be able to play and run with my son and work and earn a living and... and... and... each day was a replaying of that theme in varying levels of intensity.  The shift just simple arose, either from the depths, or as a stone dropped in the pond of awareness.  But it was palpable, like a silent crack that resounded like thunder throughout my entire awareness.

 

In  mind-body, there will occasionally be discomfort. 

There may also be pain. 

 

This does not mean i must suffer. 

 

Pain and discomfort may be unavoidable, yet Suffering is optional.

 

I didn't magically stop feeling the sensations of pain and discomfort.  But the realization that the suffering i was experiencing was a self generated layered on top of the existing sensations that were unpleasant was paradigm shifting. 

 

on a side note, a venerable older guy I worked with, overheard me sharing this and offered his experience of it.

 

Pain.  He said.  Is nothing more than a level of sensation, deemed unacceptable by the self.

 

 

Suffering is a crisis generated and layered onto an ongoing experience. 

The wrestling of that, for me, came out of my crafting a piercing and unflinching relationship of observation with The Storyteller.

[johndoe2012]

'Suffering is optional' is a good inquiry to sit with 😊

[Ajay0]

On 5/20/2023 at 12:23 PM, Lairg said:

 

So the question may be:  how does craving occur?

 

 

The correct or natural state of the mind is present moment awareness or mindfulness.

 

When contrary to this state, one unconsciously dwells on past memories of pleasure and creates similar images of pleasure through imagination ( based on memories), cravings for the same are created. 

 

Thus the culprit is actually chewing of past pleasures by thinking about them incessantly. Unconscious thought is the corruptor and creator of cravings.

 

Jiddu Krishnamurti had elaborated on this theme in his book , 'Freedom from the known'...

 

https://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/freedom-from-the-known/1968-00-00-jiddu-krishnamurti-freedom-from-the-known-chapter-4

 

Quote

 

Pleasure comes into being through four stages - perception, sensation, contact and desire. I see a beautiful motor car, say; then I get a sensation, a reaction, from looking at it; then I touch it or imagine touching it, and then there is the desire to own and show myself off in it. Or I see a lovely cloud, or a mountain clear against the sky, or a leaf that has just come in springtime, or a deep valley full of loveliness and splendor, or a glorious sunset, or a beautiful face, intelligent, alive, not self-conscious and therefore no longer beautiful. I look at these things with intense delight and as I observe them there is no observer but only sheer beauty like love. For a moment I am absent with all my problems, anxieties and miseries - there is only that marvellous thing. I can look at it with joy and the next moment forget it, or else the mind steps in, and then the problem begins; my mind thinks over what it has seen and thinks how beautiful it was; I tell myself I should like to see it again many times. Thought begins to compare, judge, and say `l must have it again tomorrow'. The continuity of an experience that has given delight for a second is sustained by thought.

 

It is the same with sexual desire or any other form of desire. There is nothing wrong with desire. To react is perfectly normal. If you stick a pin in me I shall react unless I am paralysed. But then thought steps in and chews over the delight and turns it into pleasure. Thought wants to repeat the experience, and the more you repeat, the more mechanical it becomes; the more you think about it, the more strength thought gives to pleasure. So thought creates and sustains pleasure through desire, and gives it continuity, and therefore the natural reaction of desire to any beautiful thing is perverted by thought. Thought turns it into a memory and memory is then nourished by thinking about it over and over again.

Thought is never new, for thought is the response of memory, experience, knowledge. Thought, because it is old, makes this thing which you have looked at with delight and felt tremendously for the moment, old. From the old you derive pleasure, never from the new. There is no time in the new.

So if you can look at all things without allowing pleasure to creep in - at a face, a bird, the colour of a sari, the beauty of a sheet of water shimmering in the sun, or anything that gives delight - if you can look at it without wanting the experience to be repeated, then there will be no pain, no fear, and therefore tremendous joy.

It is the struggle to repeat and perpetuate pleasure which turns it into pain. Watch it in yourself. The very demand for the repetition of pleasure brings about pain, because it is not the same, as it was yesterday. You struggle to achieve the same delight, not only to your aesthetic sense but the same inward quality of the mind, and you are hurt and disappointed because it is denied to you.

So if you understand that where there is a search for pleasure there must be pain, live that way if you want to, but don't just slip into it. If you want to end pleasure, though, which is to end pain, you must be totally attentive to the whole structure of pleasure - not cut it out as monks and sannyasis do, never looking at a woman because they think it is a sin and thereby destroying the vitality of their understanding - but seeing the whole meaning and significance of pleasure. Then you will have tremendous joy in life. You cannot think about joy. Joy is an immediate thing and by thinking about it, you turn it into pleasure. Living in the present is the instant perception of beauty and the great delight in it without seeking pleasure from it. 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Ajay0

[Lairg]

 

On 5/20/2023 at 4:53 PM, Lairg said:

  how does craving occur?

 

5 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

Thus the culprit is actually chewing of past pleasures by thinking about them incessantly.

 

Most humans have physical and emotional cravings.  Some have heart cravings.  Do these exist separately from the mind?

 

What about the cravings of infants for food and love?

 

 

 

 

 

[Ajay0]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

Most humans have physical and emotional cravings.  Some have heart cravings.  Do these exist separately from the mind?

 

 

Food, clothing, shelter are necessities of life, and not part of greed or cravings. Needs and cravings should be distinguished.

 

Needs are finite but desires or cravings are of an infinite nature. Needs can be taken care of, but no amount of augmented human productivity can fulfill desires or cravings due to its inexhaustible nature.

 

Most of our likes and dislikes, cravings and aversions are instilled by conditioning.

 

Craving for a new cellphone or car with the latest features and looks, after seeing it in an impressive advertisement, even if you have an efficient cellphone or car at present that takes of your needs, is an example of craving in action.

 

Such cravings can even lead to criminal activity.

 

There was a real life criminal incident of a young teenager, besotted by the latest iphone and its features, kidnapped his neighbors son for ransom money to buy the phone. This inspite of the fact that he had an old mobile that took care of his needs.

 

Cravings can also lead to addiction problems as well. I had created a thread in this regard...

 

 

Quote

 

It should be noted that seeking pleasure and avoiding pain are survival mechanisms that make perfect sense in a purely biological context, but no other animal smokes and drinks itself to death. Obviously, what begins as a natural survival mechanism can get in some way displaced, misdirected or exaggerated in human beings with our complex capacity for imagination and conceptual abstraction.

 
Capitalist-consumer society, which is a creation of the human mind, actually cultivates addiction. Paul Mazer, a Wall Street banker working for Lehman Brothers in the 1930s, was quoted in a documentary as having said: "We must shift America from a needs – to a desires – culture. People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old have been entirely consumed…Man's desires must overshadow his needs." And I believe it was the current CEO of Apple whom I heard in an interview describe their mission as "creating something you didn't know you wanted that once you have it, you can't imagine living without."

 
Capitalism and the advertising industry have devoted themselves to creating a sense of lack in virtually every aspect of modern life from politics to spirituality, and then offering to fill it with things we don't really need that won't really make us happy. It’s no surprise that addiction is a major problem. - Joan Tollifson

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Ajay0

[Lairg]

Pregnant women are well known to have cravings

 

 

[old3bob]

Universal Christ principle feels suffering of others, an empath feels suffering of others,   a saint feels suffering of others,  parents feel suffering of their kids,  nurses feel the suffering of their patients, etc. etc.  no need to have a clever manifesto that denies any of that just don't let it take over.

Edited May 25, 2023 by old3bob

[Ajay0]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

Pregnant women are well known to have cravings

 

 

 These are actually nutritional needs and surge in pregnancy hormones that corresponds to the pregnancy phase.

 

https://www.pampers.com/en-us/pregnancy/prenatal-health-and-wellness/article/pregnancy-cravings

 

Quote

What about the cravings of infants for food and love?

 

These are also needs that correspond to infanthood, both animal and human.  If preoccupied adults forget to give food and attention, tantrums help to serve as a reminder.