Life is suffering.

[Mark Foote]

On 5/20/2023 at 5:50 PM, silent thunder said:

 

He is however, not suffering.  

 

Not even in the midst of the rhythmic arrivals of piercing pain throughout his abdomen.
 

Hey, silent--I know, everybody's got their favorite remedy, but I came across this the other day:

 

Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences
Reversing Bacteria-induced Vitamin D Receptor Dysfunction Is Key to Autoimmune Disease

 

Evidence has been accumulating that indicates that a number of autoimmune diseases can be reversed by gradually restoring VDR function with the VDR agonist olmesartan and subinhibitory dosages of certain bacteriostatic antibiotics. Diseases showing favorable responses to treatment so far include systemic lupus erythematosis, rheumatoid arthritis, scleroderma, sarcoidosis, Sjogren's syndrome, autoimmune thyroid disease, psoriasis, ankylosing spondylitis, Reiter's syndrome, type I and II diabetes mellitus, and uveitis.

https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.2009.04637.x

 

Also, I discover that folks have been working with this, and there's something called the "Marshall Protocol" for attempting treatment.  

No idea if what he's suffering from is an autoimmune thing, but it sounds like it.  Don't know anybody who has tried the "Marshall Protocol", and there don't appear to be any studies confirming effectiveness either.  I discovered it while researching olmesartan.

They have a Facebook group, for folks to discuss, but you have to join the group to see the discussion (https://m.facebook.com/groups/10625532483/).

[Mark Foote]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:27 PM, Nungali said:

 

I supremely value my state and revel  in my 'psychiatric condition '  (  Eudemonia ) .   

 

 

eudemonia ( eudaemonia )

n. happiness considered as a criterion for what is moral and as a motivation for human action.

 

eudemonia - APA Dictionary of Psychology

 

 

“What do you think about this, reverend Jain: Is King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha, without moving his body, without uttering a word, able to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for six nights and days, for five, for four, for three, for two nights and days, for one night and day?”

 

“No, your reverence.”

 

“But I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for one night and day. I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for two nights and days,, for three, four, five, six, for seven nights and days.”

 

(MN I 94, Vol I pg 123-124)

[Mark Foote]

On 5/17/2023 at 5:41 AM, helpfuldemon said:

I get it, y'know?  All those things are temporary pleasures that don't provide any more security against the inevitability of death and illness.  We enjoy them and want more of them, but we are never satisfied with how much we get.  So the alternative is...?  To sit in silence and watch life fade away?  I don't see that as being much better of a solution.
 

 

 

I, Ananda, do not behold one material shape wherein is delight, wherein is content, but that from its changing and becoming otherwise there will not arise grief, suffering, lamentation, and despair.

 

But this abiding, Ananda, has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata [literally, “one who has gone beyond”], that is to say, by not attending to any signs, the entering on and abiding in an inward emptiness... Wherefore, Ananda, if [one] should desire: ‘Entering on an inward emptiness, may I dwell therein’, that [person], Ananda, should steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate [the] mind precisely on what is inward.

 

And how, Ananda. does [one] steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate [the] mind precisely on what is inward? As to this, Ananda, [the person], aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, entering on it abides in the first [initial] meditation... the second ... the third... the fourth meditation. Even so, Ananda, does [one] steady, calm, make one pointed, and concentrate [the] mind precisely on what is inward.”

 

(MN III 111-112, Vol III pg 154-156)
 

 

Making self surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind.

 

(SN V 200, Pali Text Society V 176)

 

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’.

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. 

 

(“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

 

Lack of desire even for the attainment of the first meditation has been spoken of by [Gautama]; for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise” [Similarly for the second, third, and fourth initial meditative states, and for the attainments of the first four further meditative states].

 

(MN III 42-45, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 92-94)

 

 

[Nungali]

43 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

eudemonia ( eudaemonia )

n. happiness considered as a criterion for what is moral and as a motivation for human action.

 

eudemonia - APA Dictionary of Psychology

 

 

“What do you think about this, reverend Jain: Is King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha, without moving his body, without uttering a word, able to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for six nights and days, for five, for four, for three, for two nights and days, for one night and day?”

 

“No, your reverence.”

 

“But I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for one night and day. I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for two nights and days,, for three, four, five, six, for seven nights and days.”

 

(MN I 94, Vol I pg 123-124)

 

Errrrmmmm ....

 

Try a proper explanation , rather than a  very simple and basic definition  *  .  It isnt just  'happiness'  and it does not consider  what is moral  due to that perspective  and it isnt a motivation for action ... if anything it is an out come of ethics/ logic/reason (in the classical senses )  and the results of actions .

 

 

And if you care to examine it , it is actually bought about by a 'spiritual state'  and several if not accomplishments , then at least various successes in approaching those accomplishments  ie , via the tutelary deity .

 

This is all from a mainstream western system going back to antiquity

 

But you westerners ... you keep up with all your 'eastern enlightenment '  then  ... and the stories about easterners that had success with it  ( compared to such basic concepts of mere 'happiness '  -  which eudamonai certainly is not )

 

 

*

 

"

Eudaimonia is often translated from Greek simply as 'happiness'—but that can be very misleading. The word 'happy', which is related to 'happen' and 'perhaps', derives from the Norse happ for 'chance', 'fortune', or 'luck'. From Irish to Greek, most European words for 'happy' originally meant something like 'lucky'—one exception being Welsh, in which it originally meant 'wise'. Another word for 'happy' or 'fortunate' in Old English is gesælig, which, over the centuries, morphed into our 'silly'.

 

Eudaimonia, in contrast, is anything but silly. It has nothing to do with chance and fortune and everything to do with thought and design. Compared to happiness, it is a much deeper, fuller, and richer concept, sometimes articulated in terms of flourishing or living a life that is worthwhile, fulfilling, and elevating.

 

All the major philosophical schools in antiquity regarded eudaimonia as the highest good, often even the very aim and purpose of philosophy, although the various schools, such as the Cynics, the Stoics, and the Epicureans, may have conceived of it in somewhat different terms.

What can be said is that, unlike happiness, eudaimonia is not an emotion but a state of being, or even, especially for Aristotle, a state of doing. As such, it is more deep-rooted than happiness, and more stable and reliable. Although it leads to pleasure or satisfaction of the highest kind, it does not arise from pleasure, but is according to higher values and principles that transcend the here and now. The people of Athens put Socrates in prison, they even put him to death, but they did not and could not take away his eudaimonia. "

 

(my emphasis )

 

read others views on at

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/202006/what-is-eudaimonia

 

 

.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Nungali

[Mark Foote]

58 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

read others views on at

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/202006/what-is-eudaimonia

 

Neil gets a little carried away, there, at the end:

 

"To put this in modern terms, if we develop our thinking skills, if we guard against lies and self-deception, if we train and master our emotions, we will, over the years, make better and better choices, do more and more meaningful things, and derive ever-increasing satisfaction from all that we have become and all that we have achieved, and are yet able to achieve."

 

I would rather sit down and let my breath place attention, until my attention moves freely and the activity of breath arises solely from the location of my attention.  I find that fulfilling, somehow, and the efforts that Neil listed have become mostly a sideshow, to me.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Nungali]

If you would rather  sit down and focus your attention on your breath , instead of developing  your thinking skills,  guarding  against lies and self-deception, training and mastering your emotions, making better and better choices, doing more and more meaningful things, and deriving ever-increasing satisfaction from all that you have become and all that you have achieved, and are yet able to achieve...

 

 

 

sit and breathe then .

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

If you would rather  sit down and focus your attention on your breath , instead of developing  your thinking skills,  guarding  against lies and self-deception, training and mastering your emotions, making better and better choices, doing more and more meaningful things, and deriving ever-increasing satisfaction from all that you have become and all that you have achieved, and are yet able to achieve...
 

sit and breathe then .
 

From the early teen years, I was unhappy with my mind, dissatisfied. 

Lucky me, to have no material wants, and so to see that there was an immaterial happiness that I seemed to be lacking.

Learning to think as mathematicians do, sometimes; learning to be honest with myself; learning that some emotional responses I have, I must make peace with; learning to act from the experience of place, rather than through the exercise of volition; and finding a rhythm in natural awareness, great stuff.

I like to sit down, and let my breath focus my attention, now here, now there, mindful of this, mindful of that.  That's been a saving grace for me.

Have you really found satisfaction based on Western classical ideas?  I'm amazed!
 

[Lairg]

Occasionally in my youth I was happy.  

 

Decades later occasionally I experience joy

 

 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

Occasionally in my youth I was happy.  

 

Decades later occasionally I experience joy

 

 

 

Then I'd say you're doing pretty good.  Not that you asked...

[Lairg]

Occasionally I meet "humans" that have such profound cosmic connections that I weep with joy

 

A few months ago I met my younger son's girl friend for the first time.  I could see the being that wished to be her daughter and wept at the sight.

 

I told them and a week later she proposed to him and he accepted.  He does not know what is happening

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Lairg

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

From the early teen years, I was unhappy with my mind, dissatisfied. 

Lucky me, to have no material wants, and so to see that there was an immaterial happiness that I seemed to be lacking.

Learning to think as mathematicians do, sometimes; learning to be honest with myself; learning that some emotional responses I have, I must make peace with; learning to act from the experience of place, rather than through the exercise of volition; and finding a rhythm in natural awareness, great stuff.

I like to sit down, and let my breath focus my attention, now here, now there, mindful of this, mindful of that.  That's been a saving grace for me.

Have you really found satisfaction based on Western classical ideas?  I'm amazed!
 

 

I would not merely refer to it as 'satisfaction' .  Its much more than that . ...  read up on it .

 

It isnt just a 'western classical idea' , its based on a life dynamic , culturally , across the board and through time .  I have witnessed it in Aboriginal culture, read about it in other cultures, written here about it regarding Zoroastrian concepts .  And a version of it is in the Themeic concept of 'True Will '  / 'Holy Guardian Angel and the classical 'Tutelary  Deity  concept .

 

Its only this year I put all the threads together , and realized the 'strange state' I am in - from a combination of  'fortuitous nativity ' and  years of certain  practices .

 

SOME views on it however ( classically ; Epicurus and some modern psychologists apparently ) confuse it with hedonism  and pleasure seeking . I think this is due to the narrow definition of some of the terms used to discuss it , classically , eg. arete .

[Nungali]

.... Oh, by the way , this does not imply that I dont 'suffer' .   

 

But like depression , eudamonia  is 'insidious'  .... it finds a way to creep back in .

 

[Mark Foote]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I think this is due to the narrow definition of some of the terms used to discuss it , classically , eg. arete .
 

 

Arete is the act of living to one's full potential.

 

(https://www.aretevt.com/what-is-arete)

That's easy for me to understand, though I can't vouch for the source.

Not as straightforward, Wikipedia:

Arete (Ancient Greek: ἀρετή, romanized: aretḗ) is a concept in ancient Greek thought that, in its most basic sense, refers to 'excellence' of any kind—especially a person or thing's "full realization of potential or inherent function." The term may also refer to excellence in "moral virtue."

 

 

My course in life feels more like:

 

 

[Lairg]

In 1982 a revolutionary book was published:  In Search of Excellence.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence

 

These days a replacement might be:  In Search of Profit

 

 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Arete is the act of living to one's full potential.

 

(https://www.aretevt.com/what-is-arete)

That's easy for me to understand, though I can't vouch for the source.

Not as straightforward, Wikipedia:

Arete (Ancient Greek: ἀρετή, romanized: aretḗ) is a concept in ancient Greek thought that, in its most basic sense, refers to 'excellence' of any kind—especially a person or thing's "full realization of potential or inherent function." The term may also refer to excellence in "moral virtue."

 

 

My course in life feels more like:

 

 

 

And how can one live to ones fullest potential if you are stuck in a job you dont like, that does not use your skills that you inherently have and have developed, dont feel you are going anywhere and dont understand the purpose of it  ?  Such a person will not be fulfilled, feel self worth , acknowledge their own genius via output and expression in 'life's work'  or may not even find a reason for living, let alone find joy in it .  Someone fulfilling a career or calling  that is fulfilling those things will find a deep satisfying accomplishment and drive  and find joy in expression ... even amongst their failures and bad days at work as they are doing  what they  ... more than love .. its a fulfilling of purpose and the reason for being here .

 

The same applies to 'a job'   as it does to ' one's life'  .  That is , finding and expressing your 'True Will' .

 

But this is just one aspect of the 'formula.

 

 

-----------

 

 

 

 

Of course, sometimes it can rough 'out there '   ;

 " Life is suffering "  ;

 

 

Where beyond the extreme sea-wall, and between the remote sea-gates,

Waste water washes, and tall ships founder, and deep death waits:

Where, mighty with deepening sides, clad about with the seas as with wings,

And impelled of invisible tides, and fulfilled of unspeakable things,

White-eyed and poisonous-finned, shark-toothed and serpentine-curled,

Rolls, under the whitening wind of the future, the wave of the world.

 

- fortunately for me , my tutelary deity , is also the patron saint and protector of sailors,  seafarers and fishermen ;

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 6/26/2023 at 2:23 PM, Nungali said:

 

And how can one live to ones fullest potential if you are stuck in a job you dont like, that does not use your skills that you inherently have and have developed, dont feel you are going anywhere and dont understand the purpose of it  ?  Such a person will not be fulfilled, feel self worth , acknowledge their own genius via output and expression in 'life's work'  or may not even find a reason for living, let alone find joy in it .  Someone fulfilling a career or calling  that is fulfilling those things will find a deep satisfying accomplishment and drive  and find joy in expression ... even amongst their failures and bad days at work as they are doing  what they  ... more than love .. its a fulfilling of purpose and the reason for being here .

 

The same applies to 'a job'   as it does to ' one's life'  .  That is , finding and expressing your 'True Will' .

 

But this is just one aspect of the 'formula.

 

 

 

You see yourself as the guy in the boat, like.  I see myself:

 

And like this:
 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Nungali]

Nah, I dont see myself as the guy in that boat  ,  he is just another 'devotee'  .

 

if I were to place myself in an icon it would be  as Juan Diego   ( and  I thought  ; 'there I am ' , the first time I ever saw the icon , probably 30 years ago) 'the young man '  beholding  Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe ;

 

[old3bob]

On a tangent:

Iron men and wooden ships, just imagine the rip roaring efforts to make her fly across the water!

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

life is a dance, suffering is getting stuck in the mud...

 

[Lairg]

7 minutes ago, old3bob said:

life is a dance, suffering is getting stuck in the mud...

 

Perhaps getting unstuck from the mud is audition for the front row

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 7/3/2023 at 8:17 PM, Lairg said:

 

Perhaps getting unstuck from the mud is audition for the front row

 

It's important that the horse is well-trained:


 

 

("The Lone Ranger", season 5 episode 8:  "Quicksand":  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dpkv6Yb4eM&t=1093s)

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Mark Foote

[dontknwmucboutanythng]

How spirituality protects your brain from despair

 

"...

But it's worth noting, of all the forms of spiritual life, the one that most correlates with the thick, strong cortex, if you will, the fortification of the awakened brain, is altruism: love of neighbor. If you really feel stuck, if you feel trapped in despair or depression, stand up, walk out the door, and bring something of beauty, of love to your neighbor. Bring them a meal. Shovel their driveway. Step out of your comfort zone just enough to do something a little bit nice for someone.

And as you do, you'll see that long ago you paved the highways into your natural seat of transcendent awareness. There is a way back to God, your higher power, the Universe- and it was paved long ago. If you own it and take it back, you will have jump started your awakened brain.

..."

 

https://bigthink.com/the-well/how-spirituality-protects-your-brain-from-despair/