Taoist wisdom is for the wise

[Taomeow]

One day Laozi was walking in the rain without an umbrella or a raincoat and met his student walking under a large umbrella.
--Teacher, why are you walking in the rain without an umbrella? -- the student asked.
--When it rains,-- Laozi replied,-- the Tao is to get wet.
The student immediately gained enlightenment, threw away the umbrella and left, smiling in the rain.
“What a fool,” Laozi muttered, picking up his umbrella.

[-_sometimes]

Daoist robbery 

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

Daoist robbery 

 

Wuwei.  

[centertime]

It reminds me of this...

A crow was sitting on a branch of a tree with a piece of cheese in her beak when a fox observed her and set his wits to work to discover some way of getting the cheese. Coming and standing under the tree he looked up and said, "What a noble bird I see above me! Her beauty is without equal, the hue of her plumage exquisite. If only her voice is as sweet as her looks are fair, she ought without doubt to be queen of the birds." The crow was hugely flattered by this, and just to show the fox that she could sing she gave a loud caw. Down came the cheese, of course, and the fox, snatching it up, said, "You have a voice, madam, I see. What you want is wits."

[Cobie]

In Ch. 67 Laozi said, "I have three treasures that I constantly hold firmly to: 

first is compassion,

second is frugality, and

third is not presuming to be at the forefront in the world.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

@Zhongyongdaoist thank you for your like, it means a lot to me. 

[Taomeow]

@Cobie Do you happen to have a Laozi quote where he might be objecting to jokes, or maybe equating a sense of humor to a lack of compassion for all purposes and in all contexts, or admonishing against "using his name in vain" like the Christian god, or warning that tongue-in-cheek statements go against the dao?..   I might not be DDJ's most meticulous scholar (in fact I'm sure I'm not) so if I missed it somewhere, I'm all ears.   

Edited May 20, 2023 by Taomeow

[liminal_luke]

I once remarked to a friend that I don't like to read novels unless someone dies -- and preferably not by natural causes.  My taste in literature is admittedly sociopathic but even spiritual teaching tales need a touch of conflict, a playful edge.  Reading should be fun.  Hardworking, compassionate authors reward their readers time with wit, cleverness, and the occasional plot twist.  I'm not bothered by the occasional stolen fictional umbrella. 

[silent thunder]

If humor's on the outs in daoist process... perhaps someone should pop a time note back and warn Chuantze.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

If humor's on the outs in daoist process... perhaps someone should pop a time note back and warn Chuantze.

 

Humor is always welcome, but it should be good humor, and I didn't think that this was:

 

On 5/19/2023 at 1:28 PM, Taomeow said:

One day Laozi was walking in the rain without an umbrella or a raincoat and met his student walking under a large umbrella.
--Teacher, why are you walking in the rain without an umbrella? -- the student asked.
--When it rains,-- Laozi replied,-- the Tao is to get wet.
The student immediately gained enlightenment, threw away the umbrella and left, smiling in the rain.
“What a fool,” Laozi muttered, picking up his umbrella.

 

Was good humor.

 

Leaving the question of why Laozi is out "walking in the rain without an umbrella or a raincoat", we find him meeting a student with an umbrella who asks Laozi, why he is out walking in the rain without an umbrella.  Laozi responds that when it is raining "the Tao is to get wet", his trusting student having "immediately gained enlightenment" throws away the umbrella and leaves, "Smiling in the Rain", for which act Loazi calls him "a fool", indicating that what was gained was certainly not "enlightenment", but folly and then picks up the umbrella, apparently for his own use.

 

As written this is not:

 

On 5/19/2023 at 1:39 PM, -_sometimes said:

Daoist robbery 

 

But pseudo Daoist fraud, which is confirmed by Laozi calling the trusting student a "fool" for falling for the ruse that, when it is raining"the Tao is to get wet", in order to gain the trusting student's umbrella under false pretenses, and since it required Laozi to say "the Tao is to get wet", it is not:

 

23 hours ago, Taomeow said:

On 5/19/2023 at 1:39 PM, -_sometimes said:

Daoist robbery 

 

Wuwei.  

 

Wuwei either, since saying something is a form of action, and the DaoDe Jing considers Wuwei "Wordless Teaching".

 

Rather this piece of "humor" portrays Laozi as someone, who for whatever reason, finds himself caught in the rain and thinks its a fine idea to fool a trusting student into abandoning his umbrella so that Laozi could use it himself.  Apparently sharing was not an option for reasons not disclosed, and that's why I don't think this is good humor, but bad humor, which for the above reasons, I didn't find funny, which is part of why I liked Cobie's response above, the other being his emphasis on Compassion, as aspect of the Dao often neglected.

 

ZYD

 

 

[silent thunder]

He picks up the umbrella, though... it doesn't say he uses it. 

 

He picks up the umbrella. 

 

The story came through another angle for me not centered on the umbrella or the rain, but on the illusory association with them... it then promptly meandered on into the following.

 

 

 

The student was a fool for being swayed by forms and words and identifying with the 10k.

When he discarded his umbrella he demonstrated this; and then continues on, double fool now thinking himself free and clever and improved, yet still operating in the same realm of 10k.

 

Lao picks up the umbrella.

 

When the next student arrives and stops, asking him 'why are you standing in the rain while holding an unopened umbrella?'   Lao hands them the umbrella and replies  'compassion'.

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

Taoist wisdom is for the wise. 

 

There's a common understanding that to "follow the tao" is to let oneself flow along rather passively with external conditions -- ie if it's raining you get wet.  But is this passivity, this abandonment of common sense, truly Taoist?  Or does the seeker who goes out in a storm sans umbrella misunderstand the nuanced meaning of wuwei?  The student here was a fool because he took wuwei to mean doing nothing, a common misunderstanding of nonaction.  Taoist wisdom (the wisdom of wuwei, for instance) is for the wise because fools misconstrue it's meaning and end up wet. 

 

In this tale Laozi allows the student to experience the negative consequences of his wrong thinking.  This is, as Taomeow points out, true wuwei.  The sage allows the universe to work through him.  It might seem cruel or uncompassionate -- theft, even -- but it's really just a matter of natural consequences.  If you're willing to believe that being spiritual means not taking action to better your circumstances, you're gonna get soaked.  From a certain point of view, letting the student receive a soaking is compassionate.

 

Parables, like jokes, are usually better left unexplained but I couldn't resist throwing in my own interpretation.  Perhaps I got it wrong?  Taoist wisdom is, after all, for the wise.

Edited May 21, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

Really enjoyed your interpretations, @silent thunder , @liminal_luke.  (And @centertime -- that was apt, didn't occur to me, even though I knew that fable since kindergarten! )

 

Here's another one -- jumped at me from a clipboard, don't remember when or where I wrote this but perchance it's a quote from something I already posted here, my apologies:

 

Chinese proverb:

If you throw a stick to the dog, the dog will look at the stick.  If you throw a stick to the lion, the lion will look at who threw the stick.

 

I find it to be one of the most practical, pragmatically sound and philosophically sane teachings to internalize. 

   

Don't just react to whatever is thrown your way.  Don't spend your life chasing sticks.  Look for the source.  Look like a lion (or lioness) does.  Don't sniff the stick, don't fetch the stick, don't chew on the stick before you find out who threw it.  Examine and determine their intent, their motives for throwing it at you, what they stand to gain or lose from throwing it, what you stand to gain or lose if you chase the stick.  Are they playing with you?  Luring you into an ambush?  Trying to distract you with the stick while aiming a gun at you?  Do they mistake you for a dog and expect you to fetch?  And if you oblige and fetch, will they beat you with that stick?  Who threw the stick?  Who are they?

 

Once you know, you the lion(ess) might run as fast as you can from the one throwing the stick.  Or toward them.  Fight for your life.  Or for your dinner.  Or ignore as inconsequential.   

Meanwhile, the dog is still looking at the stick, mesmerized, excited.  Wow!  Bow wow!  A stick!  A stick for me!  Bow wow wow!  

 

[Cobie]

@Chang dao ling thank you for your ‘like’, appreciated. 

[liminal_luke]

@Cobie

 

Although I have a different take on Taomeow's fable than you do, I appreciate the fact that you want to highlight compassion as a Taoist value.  I agree with ZYD that compassion is often underemphasized by Taoists here on the forum.  

Edited May 21, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

38 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

@Cobie

 

Although I have a different take on Taomeow's fable than you do, I appreciate the fact that you want to highlight compassion as a Taoist value.  I agree with ZYD that compassion is often underemphasized by Taoists here on the forum.  

 

Methinks posts about compassion are a lot more inspiring when they exhibit a sort of semantic onomatopoeia (to borrow a term from linguistics that is usually applied to morphology rather than semantics) -- i.e. they mean what they sound like.  A morphological onomatopoeia example would be "meow" or "oink" or "snap crackle pop."   A semantic example would be a post about compassion that is, at the very least, not mean in its intent and/or execution.  Better yet, genuinely compassionate.  ("Genuinely" as in, before expressing it one has to feel it rather than preach it -- and barring that feeling, better leave the subject of compassion well alone.) 

 

 @Cobie   I don't mean yours was mean! -- though I did find its dramatic execution in huge red letters, more appropriate IMO in response to a much more serious uncompassionate transgression than a joke you didn't like, somewhat facepalm worthy.   But we've seen better communication and I'm hoping will see it again.

 

At one point, long ago, I argued here that 99.9% of all humor is based on someone getting hurt in some way (if you don't believe me, try to think of a funny joke at no one's expense...  they are very hard to find!)  That's because the very function of humor, in humans, is to lighten the mood with a certain ambiguity which is inherent in some traumas, particularly when they are not all that terribly traumatic.  The origin of laughter is exactly this -- a baby learning to laugh starts out unsure whether to laugh or to cry (and exactly the same muscles execute both actions, believe it or not.)         

[liminal_luke]

31 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

At one point, long ago, I argued here that 99.9% of all humor is based on someone getting hurt in some way (if you don't believe me, try to think of a funny joke at no one's expense...  they are very hard to find!)          

 

Here we have a sticky modern dilemma.  Most people agree that humor is a good thing and we want to avoid hurting people's feelings.  My sense is that society has swung too far in the direction of protecting feelings at the expense of humor and playfulness.  Which brings me to a joke: A black carsalesman, a hassidic Jew, and a vegan lesbian walk into a bar...

 

Oh, nevermind...

Edited May 21, 2023 by liminal_luke

[thelerner]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:28 PM, Taomeow said:

One day Laozi was walking in the rain without an umbrella or a raincoat and met his student walking under a large umbrella.
--Teacher, why are you walking in the rain without an umbrella? -- the student asked.
--When it rains,-- Laozi replied,-- the Tao is to get wet.
The student immediately gained enlightenment, threw away the umbrella and left, smiling in the rain.
“What a fool,” Laozi muttered, picking up his umbrella.

At least he kept his fingers, which puts him ahead of some disciples.  

[centertime]

I would continue the story.

And then Laozi shouted "Fool, you missed the point.That is not enlightlight".

The student turned around and look at Laozi.. "A right, then he enlightened".

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by centertime

[silent thunder]

@liminal_luke  You've reminded me of a conversation I had with Marblehead here, about my notion of surrender and acceptance in life and how it has become central to my process.  I had mentioned how I surrender to the conditions of life and my place in them and acknowledge what is and going with it.  As those who knew him, or have read much of his contributions here will ascertain...

 

It raised his hackles and caused him to go into 'radical honesty marble mode' while we explored the topic.  Marble's radical honesty was a trait of his I always appreciated deeply.  One may not have agreed with Marble, but you would never have to try and ferret out or guess where he stood on things related to you, he was unapologetically honest, wonderfully direct and that is refreshing these days.  To say what you mean and mean what you say has become a rarer commodity in recent decades. 

 

He managed to remain open to listening to other views without being threatened by them and thus, true conversing could take place with him.  He reminded me so of my Father in many ways, that one perhaps above others.  My love and appreciation of him has only grown since his departure from form. 

 

But in the end, he realized the manner in which I was using surrender wasn't the blase' passivity of surrender in conflict, war or adversity; it is a recognition of one's place within The All of life.  It is one's intent and an awareness of one's authentic nature, in any given situation, which included at times opposing, and even violent action in a few rare cases for me.  He came to agree with me, which I suspected he would (if I could find the chain of words to adequetaly express my notion) and to this day that conversation still resonates in my awareness with the joy of true connection.

 

I bring this up because of liminal's keen insight about many folks these daze/days seeming assumption that Taoism (or any spiritual cultivation) requires a sort of passivity of its followers in regards to the conditions of life.  I see it as well.  For me, this notion of passivity has always been associated with the realm of Reclusivistic Buddhism, or stoic Zen, or recidivist monastic life.  But Taoism, no.  Taoism never.  Taoism for me is authenticity in action, in reaction, or in stillness.  The stillness is not passive, it is still.

 

Surrender, or Release is one of three cornerstones of my cultivation process.  Surrender and radical release has revealed itself as the pivotal and crucial point of stillness about which the other two foundational processes (acknowledgement and acceptance) revolve in an ever unfoldingness of my experience of being.  And from which, my actions or non actions in life spring.

 

And the surrender of which I speak is not some mealy, mamby pamby, take whatever happens to you and then shrug kind of surrender.  It's not passive, or apathetic.  It's piercingly inquisitive, radically explorative and wholly engaged.  You see one may surrender and give up, or one may surrender to the impulse to act.  And here is where Marble and I came to agreement.

 

As explained, my notion of surrender is not a blanket passivity or giving up.  Quite antipodal to it... because when I surrender, it's to authenticity of awareness in the moment, within core impulses that are within the context of the conditions of life arising in that moment. 

 

When I surrender it's to the impulse to action or to non action that arises tzujan, from within my authentic nature. 

 

The surrender arises after acknowledging the conditions I find myself a part of (in non crisis, this involves receding into the quiet center for a time, until awareness expands to encompass what is being encountered.  Once acknowledged, and accepted as what is, my place within is revealed in clarity and a non hesitent surrender to action or non action occurs) 

 

[in moments of crisis there is no going within, the within spontaneously expands outward instantly and authenticity of action arises without impedence, and I act according to my nature].

 

Marble got hung up on Acceptance as well for a bit.  Though it too was reconciled between us as my notion of acceptance is hinge and pin in line with my semantic notions on surrender.  When I say I Accept: I do not imply that I 'wholly support', condone, or endorse what is occuring.   Acceptance is a release into the acknowledgement of what is.  And when I accept what I've acknowledged is occuring... because it is what is, Then I accept what arises from within my nature.  And act, or not from that. 

 

TLDR;

in my case, my notion of acceptance and surrender means I am surrendering to my authentic nature and accepting its undeniable place within the conditons of The All (a term I'm using more and more in place of Tao which has become annoyingly reified in my mind of late).  I surrender to the expression of my authentic self that arises of itself, tzujan, in response to the myriad conditions The All, of which I am an intrinsic part.

 

My relationship to acceptance and surrender/radical release has developed into a potent access to the network of personal and residually available environmental power.  Far from debilitating, it is simultaneously liberating and empowering.

Edited May 21, 2023 by silent thunder
grammar goblins

[Taomeow]

39 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

  You see one may surrender and give up, or one may surrender to the impulse to act.  And here is where Marble and I came to agreement.

 

I also agree.  Though I find that surrendering behavior is best balanced with self-discipline, a seldom discussed taoist "virtue."  People with poor impulse control surrender to the impulse to act all the time, regardless of whether it's appropriate or useful.  Whereas people who are generally passive may surrender to continuously eschewing responsibility and sheer elbow grease ("someone else will do it.")   

 

I still don't know how to resolve this conflict in a civilized setting.  The umbrella was the first human invention, and remains the only one that is, by and large, entirely harmless (barring some special cases where this or that secondary use is found for it.)  Away from civilization, you use it if you want to stay dry, or don't use it if you don't mind getting wet, and in every case you surrender to the temporary, ever-changing agreement between your true nature and the true nature of the moment.  For this, discipline is not required.  But to learn a singing and dancing performance in the rain like a trained circus animal takes you to Hollywood stardom.  Hmm...  

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

Though I find that surrendering behavior is best balanced with self-discipline, a seldom discussed taoist "virtue."  P

 

With practice I believe it's possible to develop a knack for surrendering to one's better nature, to let go into that part of ourselves that wants to do the right but difficult thing.  Almost everybody who has ever picked up a pint of Hagen Daz has also had the impulse, however quiet, to eat a warm nutrient-dense meal and go for a jog.  One can allow oneself to be carried away by that "still small voice" that actually wants, against all reason, to eat brussel sprouts.  

Edited May 21, 2023 by liminal_luke

[silent thunder]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:21 PM, Taomeow said:

Though I find that surrendering behavior is best balanced with self-discipline

*nods*

Of utmost importance.  Without that, it's just an excuse for any whim to be carried out regardless of potential impacts.  A cover for reckless disregard and selfishness. 

 

More often than not of late, the surrender I experience is to not act, not interfere and realize that nothing is required aside from my acknowledgement and presence. 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by silent thunder

[silent thunder]

 

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Edited June 2, 2023 by silent thunder

[Taomeow]

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Edited May 22, 2023 by Taomeow