We live by concepts

[Cobie]

 

 

9 hours ago, Lairg said:

Some topics are not to be investigated - hence the mental defences 

 

Exactly. 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Cobie

[Bindi]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:52 PM, Lairg said:

 

He begs to differ

 

If you meet the local galactic logos on the road, kill him…

[old3bob]

and what if you meet the anti-guru, guru on the road? (aka J.K.)  (who is also working with a concepts about guru's but does not really know what a true guru is for if he did he'd have kill his own particular variation of concepts)

Edited June 13, 2023 by old3bob

[Apech]

Good to see this thread is maintaining high quality convo.

[silent thunder]

26 minutes ago, Apech said:

Good to see this thread is maintaining high quality convo.

What?! 

Where?!

 

 

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, Cobie said:

@Lairg you must have hit a nerve.  

 

 

 

That nerve I have in my nose  ......  < sniff , sniff >   yep , there it is again , can smell it a mile away ! 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

that reminds me didn't hitler have some submarines modified as rocket ships for outer space?  (i imagine they ran low on fuel and o2 rather quickly)

 

yes, and he  did a lot more than that in space ! 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Sky

 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Lairg said:

Some topics are not to be investigated - hence the mental defences

 

 

 

Indeed ... and it appears that is why at times , instead of answering a question (that you seem to claim to know something about )  you 'sprout wisdom from another direction '    ( thats a nice new age way of saying 'you divert ' )  .

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

Good to see this thread is maintaining high quality convo.

 

 

Its become conceptual .

[Lairg]

38 minutes ago, Nungali said:

instead of answering a question

 

I usually edit my longer replies several times.  Perhaps they are worth reading several times

Edited June 13, 2023 by Lairg

[Mark Foote]

On 6/11/2023 at 5:03 AM, Apech said:

 

There is that which is beyond concepts - and I was particularly careful to say 'we live by concepts' not 'everything is just conceptual' and so on.  But for me anyway, as we discuss this we use concepts - like the idea of there being sheaths of increasing levels of subtlety starting with our physical bodies.  If you wanted to communicate this to someone you would have to describe them using concepts and build a picture so that the other person can understand.  Including the idea, that you gave, of moving between levels, or between channels (another concept).  At some point I am thinking in the increasingly subtle levels of the koshas there is a level which is fine enough to be basically conceptual in itself.  Here ideas are like beings of this realm, dynamic light forms which have their own existence (in a sense).  Theists might call this the voice of God for instance.  We might call what we receive from them intuitive insights or similar.

 

I believe also, that in going beyond the conceptual level at which these thought forms operate, it is not the case that concepts are simply wiped out or discarded, rather that they cohere around the consciousness that has gone beyond.  Conceptualisation would not at this point be any longer a stepping stone on the path but more like an ornament or garment for the enlightened being.  If you see what I mean.  

 

 

Brings to mind pictures of a blue god with flower leis, riding a cow.  

Here's a disturbing image:
 

In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152)

 

Six sensory fields, so the mind is a sensory field that is present when "brought to a close [is] the (holy)-faring", according to Gautama the Shakyan.  Now what is it that the mind senses?

Don't seem to be answers to the questions in the back of the textbook...

Changing channels:

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Mark Foote

[C T]

Regardless of refinement, concepts have limits, and the argument for their specificity, usually confined and encircled to particular sets of circumstances or applications, holds merit. 

 

 

I'm suggesting that chances of such limitations are substantive, leading to blockages and obstacles on the path of spiritual heartmind cultivation.

 

One needs to be careful not to confuse seemingly progressive conceptual designates, no matter how sophisticated or refined they appear, with spiritual progress. If the function remains obvious and apparent, there isn't any real refinement. 

[silent thunder]

I just realized all this time I've been suffering under a misconception.

 

I thought Einstein was a real physicist. 

 

But it turns out he was theoretical.

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Brings to mind pictures of a blue god with flower leis, riding a cow.  

Here's a disturbing image:
 

In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

 

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152)

 

Six sensory fields, so the mind is a sensory field that is present when "brought to a close [is] the (holy)-faring", according to Gautama the Shakyan.  Now what is it that the mind senses?

Don't seem to be answers to the questions in the back of the textbook...

Changing channels:

 

of cankers I am the cankerchief 

[Nungali]

On 6/14/2023 at 8:42 AM, Lairg said:

 

I usually edit my longer replies several times.  Perhaps they are worth reading several times

 

Ahhhh .....   'wisdom from another direction '  .

 

( I like that one ..... it is sooooo   ....  tatemae   . 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

 

- I am more of a honne type of guy     ... cept I dont keep it 'inside' .      )

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 6/14/2023 at 12:14 PM, Apech said:

of cankers I am the cankerchief 
 

 

Ka-choo!  As opposed to:

 

 

 

Palahiko Mana, Water-Drinking Maiden, Hopi 1899. She wears a headdress with stepped Earth signs and corn ears. Water Drinking Woman seems to be a name for the corn itself, one of many forms of the Corn Maidens.

(Wikipedia, "kachina")

Edited June 16, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:30 PM, C T said:

Regardless of refinement, concepts have limits, and the argument for their specificity, usually confined and encircled to particular sets of circumstances or applications, holds merit. 

 

 

I'm suggesting that chances of such limitations are substantive, leading to blockages and obstacles on the path of spiritual heartmind cultivation.

 

One needs to be careful not to confuse seemingly progressive conceptual designates, no matter how sophisticated or refined they appear, with spiritual progress. If the function remains obvious and apparent, there isn't any real refinement. 

 

Concepts, by illustration, are what, then?  

The father of a friend once said, "I was always afraid that if I ever got my (stuff) together, it would be tougher than I am."
 

[Mark Foote]

 

Seriously, though.  Are there stars in the sky that guide the seafarer?  

 

Granted, when the mariners of the South Sea islands are asked how they navigate to islands over the horizon on a cloudy night, their replies mostly make no sense to Westerners.  Are there no words for some intuitions, or do their words actually make sense in some other, non-Western context?

If there are gradations of concentration, as Gautama insisted there were, and even the brightest of India in the time of Gautama had failed to arrive at the concentration he attained, then how are the conceptual frameworks in the millenias that followed to be trusted?  

Yuanwu spent time and energy to assemble "The Blue Cliff Record".  Nonetheless, his disciple attempted to destroy all copies of it, as well as the printing plates.  The disciple apparently put his faith in an intuitive transmission set up by the physical presence of a teacher, even if the critical experience did not occur in the teacher's presence.  

 

I think Yuanwu demonstrated more faith than his disciple.  What hope is there for humanity, if the means to a saner civilization depends solely on person-to-person transmission?



 

[C T]

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Concepts, by illustration, are what, then?  

The father of a friend once said, "I was always afraid that if I ever got my (stuff) together, it would be tougher than I am."
 

 

"The dharma of intellect cannot fathom the truth beyond intellect. The dharma of action cannot discover the truth of non-action. Should you wish to attain the truth beyond intellect, the truth of non-action, search out your mind and leave your awareness naked."

 

~ Mahasiddha Tilopa

 

[Mark Foote]

On 6/16/2023 at 1:35 AM, C T said:

 

"The dharma of intellect cannot fathom the truth beyond intellect. The dharma of action cannot discover the truth of non-action. Should you wish to attain the truth beyond intellect, the truth of non-action, search out your mind and leave your awareness naked."

 

~ Mahasiddha Tilopa

 

 

I would contend that "awareness naked" (as in "search out your mind and leave your awareness naked") is "one-pointedness of mind".

 

Pitch Instructions to Mahamudra

By Sri Tilopa to Naropa at the Banks of the River Ganges

1

Homage to the glorious Co-emergence!

2

Mahamudra cannot be shown; 

but for you who are devoted to the guru,

who have undertaken hardships

and are forbearing in suffering, intelligent Naropa,

the fortunate one, take this to your heart.

 

3

Kye-ho! Look carefully at worldly phenomena,

unable to last like an illusion or dream.

Illusions and dreams do not truly exist.

Therefore, develop sadness and relinquish worldly activities.

Renounce all retinues and relations, the objects of passion and aggression,

and meditate alone in forests, mountains and solitary places.

 

4

Remain in the state of non-meditation.

Mahamudra (Great Seal) is attained when non-attainment is attained.

The dharma of samsara is futile, the cause of suffering.

The dharma of action has no substance;

so, look at the substance of the ultimate.

 

5

The dharma of intellect cannot fathom the truth beyond intellect.

The dharma of action cannot discover the truth of non-action.

Should you wish to attain the truth beyond intellect, the truth of non-action,

search out your mind and leave your awareness naked.

 

6

Allow the polluted water of thoughts to clear.

Do not negate or affirm projections, but leave them as they are.

If there is no rejecting or accepting,

then you are liberated into mahamudra.

 

7

For example, a tree grows leaves and branches.

Severing its root withers the hundreds of thousands

of leaves and branches

 

(https://www.scribd.com/document/46187100/Instructions-to-Mahamudra#)

 

 

[old3bob]

I'd say  a householder does not retreat to the forest so context is needed for that saying... 

[doc benway]

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I would contend that "awareness naked" (as in "search out your mind and leave your awareness naked") is "one-pointedness of mind".

 

My interpretation of “one-pointedness” is that it is more closely related to concentration and connection than to naked awareness per se. One-pointedness is a critical part of how we engage in the practice of naked awareness for sure but it is also a component of other practices requiring concentration such as shamatha, zhiné, generation and completion stage practices, and so forth. Just my perspective fwiw.

[Apech]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

My interpretation of “one-pointedness” is that it is more closely related to concentration and connection than to naked awareness per se. One-pointedness is a critical part of how we engage in the practice of naked awareness for sure but it is also a component of other practices requiring concentration such as shamatha, zhiné, generation and completion stage practices, and so forth. Just my perspective fwiw.

 

From what I understand 'one pointedness' when used in the context of mahamudra does not mean concentration as this would be an effort or activity of the mind.  What I understand it to mean is wholeness or unity in awareness, such that whatever seems to arise or not arise the awareness remains constant - it is one of the mahamudra stages - to say more I would have to look it up and as I may have mentioned I have become lazy ...

 

@Mark Foote

 

Again I think the quote from Tilopa is talking about non-meditation.  So if from the beginning we think we are going to meditate - which suggests doing something - a path of action - this is not it.  Putting effort in at 'advanced' stages obscures the realisation of naked awareness.  There is of course a huge paradox in this because although we pursue dharma (as path) through improvement - when it comes to pristine or naked awareness there is no improvement - in fact any effort we make will mess it up.  Something very subtle happens about letting go or allowing.  The great difficulty is, I think, that our ego might strain to achieve the goal which it cannot achieve (being ego).  So how then do we deal with this?  One way is through the guru - by displacing all self striving and all perfection onto the guru's mind and abandoning our selves as the source of our own salvation.  

 

It is said that Naropa achieved full Buddhahood (some dispute this - but at least a very advanced bhumi stage) not through any practice as we would understand it - but simply by being around Tilopa and doing his bidding.  The trials and tribulations he was put through resulted in him completely giving up his ego-mind and realising the naked awareness of buddha-nature.

 

Of the Shakyamuni Buddha also it is said that thousands became arhats simply by being in his presence - just as the sun glints on beads of dew on grass.

 

 

[Lairg]

Is the one point inside or outside the human?

 

 

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

From what I understand 'one pointedness' when used in the context of mahamudra does not mean concentration as this would be an effort or activity of the mind. 

 

I agree