when & why can seeking enlightenment be dangerous?

[old3bob]

when & why can seeking enlightenment be dangerous?

 

We've heard a lot of night-mare accounts from various members on this subject, what is your take?

 

(and how to back-off when you or things go to hell)

Edited June 8, 2023 by old3bob

[Taoist Texts]

it is not dangerous per se. the  'night-mare' body-mind issues ppl develop in the course of any spiritual pursuit are innate. they would have developed regardless.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is not dangerous per se. the  'night-mare' body-mind issues ppl develop in the course of any spiritual pursuit are innate. they would have developed regardless.

 

can't say I agree with that T.T.

[Nungali]

When you don't know what it actually is .

[Lairg]

Forcing chakras can result in damage that lasts across several incarnations.

 

Improper use of natural and unnatural substances can rip holes in veils that separate levels of consciousness.

 

Improper invocations can admit adverse entities to the human's system

 

Improper relationships -  e.g. with "teachers"- can generate long term karma

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Lairg

[silent thunder]

To the true nature what could be a possible threat?   Aside from masking it maybe?

 

There would need to be some way to damage or injure one's true nature for danger to be a possibility.  

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

11 hours ago, silent thunder said:

To the true nature what could be a possible threat?   Aside from masking it maybe?

 

There would need to be some way to damage or injure one's true nature for danger to be a possibility.  

 

 

true that that can not be corrupted, but all other vehicles from physical, astral (emotional/mental) and higher can be....(per various problems or falls, that is until the point of no going back is finished)

Edited June 9, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

When you don't know what it actually is .

 

typical remark 

[manitou]

1 minute ago, old3bob said:

 

typical remark 

 

 

Actually, there's some truth to that; when you don't know what it actually is.

 

What it actually is isn't realized until one is capable of stilling the mind and stepping out of ego.  People who don't know what it is think they are enlightened because of intellectual pursuits only, or achievements, or how many students they have.  Folks who fall into that category can be dangerous because their perception of their own enlightenment consists predominately of ego gratification.  The further down their ego road they get, the more dangerous they become because they are blinded by their own personal perceived studio lights.

 

The humility required for complete clarity is only had after an inner purging process has been done, where one's life has been thoughtfully examined, and where complete responsibility for one's self is attained.  The true enlightenment of the sages is one that has been experiential, and most likely merged with intellectual understanding, as one who is willing to go through the enlightenment process has probably collected many masters along the way, whether that be in person or in books.  The experiential aspect of enlightenment cannot be shortchanged.  Otherwise, we have only a really knowledgeable person.

[old3bob]

1 minute ago, manitou said:

 

 

Actually, there's some truth to that; when you don't know what it actually is.

 

What it actually is isn't realized until one is capable of stilling the mind and stepping out of ego.  People who don't know what it is think they are enlightened because of intellectual pursuits only, or achievements, or how many students they have.  Folks who fall into that category can be dangerous because their perception of their own enlightenment consists predominately of ego gratification.  The further down their ego road they get, the more dangerous they become because they are blinded by their own personal perceived studio lights.

 

The humility required for complete clarity is only had after an inner purging process has been done, where one's life has been thoughtfully examined, and where complete responsibility for one's self is attained.  The true enlightenment of the sages is one that has been experiential, and most likely merged with intellectual understanding, as one who is willing to go through the enlightenment process has probably collected many masters along the way, whether that be in person or in books.  The experiential aspect of enlightenment cannot be shortchanged.  Otherwise, we have only a really knowledgeable person.

 

meaning typical type of aside or remark from Nungali

[Lairg]

The highest asset of the personality will is its self-esteem.

 

It hates to be wrong. 

 

Often it will discard physical health, emotional relationships and spiritual unfoldment rather than admit having been wrong for decades

 

 

[old3bob]

no one is getting enlightened without facing down the powers of the 7 hells and sealing them off (within and without) and then also seeing death die.   So who still wants too sacrifice everything for it?    It's not too hard  as some say....just shutter your eyes, watch your breath and "meditate" or could there be more to it?

Edited June 9, 2023 by old3bob

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

could there be more to it?

 

Much more:

 

- control and refinement of all aspects of the persona (mask)

- resolution of personal karma

- alignment of subplane substance so that the Light from on High has a straight internal path

- the intent to be at one with all

- admission to the company of sages of various species.

 

This last allows coherent participation in the unfoldment of the solar system

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Lairg

[C T]

When the journey is undertaken by one pulling a donkey lugging two sackfuls of concepts over its back

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

can't say I agree with that T.T.

and well you should not @old3bob!

14 hours ago, old3bob said:

night-mare accounts

for the rest of us: this is not a matter of an opinion or agreeing. the fact of the night-mares being innate it is a fact attested by the patients themselves.

all of  their accounts start with 'i grew up a strange, unhappy, and sickly child, living in my head'. 

none of  their  accounts start with 'i grew up a joyful, calm, and popular child, a picture of health'.

thats why the nightmares are innate. they happen to all troubled persons regardless of their spirituality. they are not even exacerbated by their spirituality.  in fact you guys have it backwards: their spirituality is a symptom of their karmic innate issues, not the cause.

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

and well you should not @old3bob!

for the rest of us: this is not a matter of an opinion or agreeing. the fact of the night-mares being innate it is a fact attested by the patients themselves.

all of  their accounts start with 'i grew up a strange, unhappy, and sickly child, living in my head'. 

none of  their  accounts start with 'i grew up a joyful, calm, and popular child, a picture of health'.

thats why the nightmares are innate. they happen to all troubled persons regardless of their spirituality. they are not even exacerbated by their spirituality.  in fact you guys have it backwards: their spirituality is a symptom of their karmic innate issues, not the cause.

 

I'd say that's a stereotype not fact...(so using it to apply to "all" people does not hold water even if it did applied to some people, btw we can not say that all the innocent happy beautiful kids in the world who ended up in wasted nightmares or even dead because of illegal and legal drugs had that "innate" to themselves! )

Edited June 9, 2023 by old3bob

[manitou]

12 hours ago, C T said:

When the journey is undertaken by one pulling a donkey lugging two sackfuls of concepts over its back

 

 

LOL.  There's plenty grass here.  Just leave the critter and the concepts to graze and mosey on...

 

 

As to the goodness or badness of kids who die because of drugs, for situations like this, my mind always jumps to the Dao regarding us as straw dogs.  This will sound absolutely heretical, I know, but my view is that the Dao doesn't care who lives and who dies, and when.  There is nobody judging what's good and what's bad, it all just Is.  The soul of awareness inside of all these bodies is the very same.  They appear separate because they've been divided into separate bodies, but the eye to eye contact of awareness knows that it is not, that each look into the window of the soul leads to the very same soul looking into itself, the other merely a mirror.

 

This is the Oneness, as I see it.  And it's seen in the pupils of another's eyes.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by manitou

[thelerner]

Sometimes I think the concept of Enlightenment is dangerous.  

 

So I keep mine simple and low, splitting it into two.   A body type enlightenment and mental type.  Course people can have them both.  My paradigm probably isn't correct at the highest but gives me something to shoot for.

[old3bob]

19 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

LOL.  There's plenty grass here.  Just leave the critter and the concepts to graze and mosey on...

 

 

As to the goodness or badness of kids who die because of drugs, for situations like this, my mind always jumps to the Dao regarding us as straw dogs.  This will sound absolutely heretical, I know, but my view is that the Dao doesn't care who lives and who dies, and when.  There is nobody judging what's good and what's bad, it all just Is.  The soul of awareness inside of all these bodies is the very same.  They appear separate because they've been divided into separate bodies, but the eye to eye contact of awareness knows that it is not, that each look into the window of the soul leads to the very same soul looking into itself, the other merely a mirror.

 

This is the Oneness, as I see it.  And it's seen in the pupils of another's eyes.

 

 

I'd say there are impersonal and personal aspects, don't confuse the two.  To paraphrase "The Tao master (manifest right hand of Tao so to speak) is always good at saving..." 

[C T]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

LOL.  There's plenty grass here.  Just leave the critter and the concepts to graze and mosey on...

 

 

As to the goodness or badness of kids who die because of drugs, for situations like this, my mind always jumps to the Dao regarding us as straw dogs.  This will sound absolutely heretical, I know, but my view is that the Dao doesn't care who lives and who dies, and when.  There is nobody judging what's good and what's bad, it all just Is.  The soul of awareness inside of all these bodies is the very same.  They appear separate because they've been divided into separate bodies, but the eye to eye contact of awareness knows that it is not, that each look into the window of the soul leads to the very same soul looking into itself, the other merely a mirror.

 

This is the Oneness, as I see it.  And it's seen in the pupils of another's eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

The Dao may not care, but we must. This straw-dog theme may be the prime reason why I don't care much for Daoism. There's this apparent absence of warmth that is rather off-putting. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by C T

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

typical remark 

 

Thank you !

 

Its nice  that you think  wisdom is typical of me     

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

meaning typical type of aside or remark from Nungali

 

Well, I keep my wisdom brief , as if you already know what I am talking about , then ya dont want a Nunger's earful .

 

For those that dont know , well, We have the delightful and patient Manitou to explain it to them .

 

( I was going to add enlightened , but some people here might not know what I mean      )

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

The Dao may not care, but we must. This straw-dog theme may be the prime reason why I don't care much for Daoism. There's this apparent absence of warmth that is rather off-putting. 

 

Indeed .   I see at like  evolution though .   The forward moving unfolding and development of potential , that individuals like me harvest the benefit of ,  has depended on  millions of individual lives  and deaths .

 

Cant say I like that concept  but it is 'the way'  of things .  For me daoism isnt just about  going with the flow of the way 'things go' but it is also about understanding some 'hard concepts '   .   Yin / yang ..... hard / soft .... so its rather 'expected' .

 

But you bring up a good point ; just because 'nature is red in tooth and claw'  does not mean we have to be .

[liminal_luke]

The pursuit of enlightenment is dangerous when it is undertaken for unenlightened reasons, which is to say, nearly always.  Then again, it's not as if avoiding enlightenment is particularly safe.  I say live a little!

Edited June 9, 2023 by liminal_luke

[silent thunder]

There is no derision in the lack of our inherent meaning as forms within distinction.

 

Dao nourishes all regardless of form.  Rain falls on the murderer and the healer without distinction.  Sun shines in all directions regardless of whether there are planets or life to shine on.  That we are straw dogs does not imply we are worthless trash.  It conveys  the sense of the straw dog festival where straw is shaped into dogs and paraded around and celebrated for a time.  Then when the festival is over, the straw is returned to the livestock pens.

 

Our forms and life are supported and nourished entirely while alive (our time in the festival of life) through the action of dao.  Our bodies will fall away and dao will do nothing to stop it, hurry it along, nor evaluate it. 

 

dao nourishes all, encompasses all, and rejects nothing.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by silent thunder