when & why can seeking enlightenment be dangerous?

[C T]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

so are you implying  that you've skipped the Upanishads as just another form of common communal goings on?

Havent you already picked up on hint after hint after hint that desperately seeks to project the idea that we have a sort of celestial lord in this community?  😉

[old3bob]

no one knows for sure until the fat lady sings...I mean the goddess sings  

 

(See your point more so in the concept string)

Edited June 12, 2023 by old3bob

[johndoe2012]

On 10.6.2023 at 7:12 AM, C T said:

Karma exists as potential. 

Don't leave its fate in the hands of imagined beings. 

 

Take responsibility to create causes for good karma to ripen, instead of trying to erase unfavourable past karma. Most do the latter, that's why there are so few enlightened persons. 

 

Patience is a good virtue. 

 

I think you can do both. 

 

Clearing old surface karma is simple (just use divine healing tools or light) but deep seated karma cannot be cleared in a few seconds. A change of life circumstances, doing good deeds, focus on virtue is the way. 

 

Also I found receiving Buddhist empowerments cleared some heaviness out as doing Tantric practices as well. 

 

I think a good measurement tool is finding out what you feel towards others: do you wish them well or harm? 

[Lairg]

7 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

deep seated karma cannot be cleared in a few seconds

 

Quite so.

 

Personal karma requires forgiving of self and the other parties.  This is often not easy as the karmic actions may extend across multiple incarnations.  Once that is done well, a request to the Lords of Karma may result in the karma being removed.

 

Group karma is a bit easier as that follows lines of least resistance and the more refined human may often be exempted from the flow when the Lords of Karma are properly petitioned.

 

Planetary karma is more difficult as it is implicit in the substance used to make the various energy bodies of the human.  Exemption usually requires a conscious relationship with the Entity that uses this solar system as its body of manifestation.

 

Exemption from solar and galactic karma is normally restricted to those posted into this galaxy that have achieved third stage enlightenment in whatever species they are currently incarnated.

 

 

[old3bob]

I'd say karma is not used to make "various energy bodies", where do you get this stuff??  Karma (so called good or bad) can be said to be like an earned coating on the surface of the soul that affects its state of being & manifestation  for better or worse. (and to be worked on and thus at some point to no longer encumber or veil the soul of any order of being)

Edited June 22, 2023 by old3bob

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

karma is not used to make "various energy bodies"

 

That is not what I wrote.

 

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

Planetary karma is more difficult as it is implicit in the substance used to make the various energy bodies of the human.

 

All substance is qualified by the entities within which it has been used before it is used by the human

 

 

[C T]

7 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

I think you can do both. 

 

Clearing old surface karma is simple (just use divine healing tools or light) but deep seated karma cannot be cleared in a few seconds. A change of life circumstances, doing good deeds, focus on virtue is the way. 

 

Also I found receiving Buddhist empowerments cleared some heaviness out as doing Tantric practices as well. 

 

I think a good measurement tool is finding out what you feel towards others: do you wish them well or harm? 

 

Tulku Urgyen's view: 

There is also another way to thoroughly and perpetually bring an end to negative karma and obscuration. The moment of recognizing mind essence totally interrupts the karma and obscurations, for that moment. It purifies the negative karma that has been continued from the past and it interrupt any creation henceforth. As long as this recognition last, karma and obscurations are completely ended. Complete stability in the recognition of empty cognizance, therefore, involves the total elimination of all obscurations and negative karma.

[old3bob]

52 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Tulku Urgyen's view: 

There is also another way to thoroughly and perpetually bring an end to negative karma and obscuration. The moment of recognizing mind essence totally interrupts the karma and obscurations, for that moment. It purifies the negative karma that has been continued from the past and it interrupt any creation henceforth. As long as this recognition last, karma and obscurations are completely ended. Complete stability in the recognition of empty cognizance, therefore, involves the total elimination of all obscurations and negative karma.

 

and or also suspending for a moment which is possible with help...

 

btw, with me not being Buddhist I don't follow their terminology that well, thus I see mind as essentially being a computer like thing that can be likened to running software programs of mind and emotion. (programs that are not the Self as pointed to in the Upanishads)

Edited June 22, 2023 by old3bob

[manitou]

On 6/9/2023 at 4:51 PM, silent thunder said:

There is no derision in the lack of our inherent meaning as forms within distinction.

 

Dao nourishes all regardless of form.  Rain falls on the murderer and the healer without distinction.  Sun shines in all directions regardless of whether there are planets or life to shine on.  That we are straw dogs does not imply we are worthless trash.  It conveys  the sense of the straw dog festival where straw is shaped into dogs and paraded around and celebrated for a time.  Then when the festival is over, the straw is returned to the livestock pens.

 

Our forms and life are supported and nourished entirely while alive (our time in the festival of life) through the action of dao.  Our bodies will fall away and dao will do nothing to stop it, hurry it along, nor evaluate it. 

 

dao nourishes all, encompasses all, and rejects nothing.

 

 

 

 

That's perfect.  "Rain falls on the murderer and the healer (or murdered!) without distinction.  I agree that to recognize that the Dao (or 'God') as Impersonal is to understand it.  But love is definitely the connecting force that holds it all together, if you consider that love (mutual attraction) binds things together, at least initially, until we fall victim to our conditioning.

 

There is no one judging anything.  There is no set of eyes in the sky that chalks us up as Good or Bad.  To see the Dao as impersonal is to reject nothing.  Judgments are superfluous.  To look into another's eyes is to look into the eyes of 'god'.  Same as when we look in the mirror and see god in our own reflection.

 

I like the way you brought the element of Time into the straw dog discussion.  'Celebrated for a time'.  I never thought of it that way.  I always just looked at it as the Dao having no preferences, no judgments.  The rain falls on all.

[old3bob]

"that which is against the Tao soon ceases to be"  paraphrased from the T.T.C. so in that sense their is no equilvanecy between that which is against the Tao and that which is in alignment.

Edited June 23, 2023 by old3bob

[johndoe2012]

On 22.6.2023 at 5:27 PM, C T said:

 

Tulku Urgyen's view: 

There is also another way to thoroughly and perpetually bring an end to negative karma and obscuration. The moment of recognizing mind essence totally interrupts the karma and obscurations, for that moment. It purifies the negative karma that has been continued from the past and it interrupt any creation henceforth. As long as this recognition last, karma and obscurations are completely ended. Complete stability in the recognition of empty cognizance, therefore, involves the total elimination of all obscurations and negative karma.

 

For very few the recognition lasts, so we have to use other tools. 

 

Edit: Noticed some selfish traits come up, did a part of a Dzogchen practice and it disappeared. Just empty clarity left. 

 

So grateful for ChNN. A real master ♥️

Edited June 24, 2023 by johndoe2012

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

For very few the recognition lasts, so we have to use other tools. 

 

It is pretty apparent that those "very few" are mostly renunciates living in monasteries or like conditions and some also go unseen in plain sight.

 

Much of what is submitted at this sight are methods more for renunciates or students close to a particular school (like retreating to the forest or mountains and such) and most of us can't live the renunciates life... and as householders it would be wrong to try.

[johndoe2012]

12 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

It is pretty apparent that those "very few" are mostly renunciates living in monasteries or like conditions and some also go unseen in plain sight.

 

Much of what is submitted at this sight are methods more for renunciates or students close to a particular school (like retreating to the forest or mountains and such) and most of us can't live the renunciates life... and as householders it would be wrong to try.

 

I was a renunciate in a past life, this life is more about enjoyment, kids, women etc. 

[old3bob]

On 6/22/2023 at 1:32 PM, manitou said:

 

 

That's perfect.  "Rain falls on the murderer and the healer (or murdered!) without distinction.  I agree that to recognize that the Dao (or 'God') as Impersonal is to understand it.  But love is definitely the connecting force that holds it all together, if you consider that love (mutual attraction) binds things together, at least initially, until we fall victim to our conditioning.

 

There is no one judging anything.  There is no set of eyes in the sky that chalks us up as Good or Bad.  To see the Dao as impersonal is to reject nothing.  Judgments are superfluous.  To look into another's eyes is to look into the eyes of 'god'.  Same as when we look in the mirror and see god in our own reflection.

 

I like the way you brought the element of Time into the straw dog discussion.  'Celebrated for a time'.  I never thought of it that way.  I always just looked at it as the Dao having no preferences, no judgments.  The rain falls on all.

 

umm, right how could the Absolute judge the Absolute...but there are also countless souls and realms and you can bet your bottom dollar that there is some form of judgement or spiritual weighing of a soul for passage and stays or sojourn's in various realms...there is no lovey-dovey "new age" free lunch,  karma is exacting and can only be super ceded by a higher divine force taking  action per its wise need.

Edited July 10, 2023 by old3bob

[manitou]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

umm, right how could the Absolute judge the Absolute...but there are also countless souls and realms and you can bet your bottom dollar that there is some form of judgement or spiritual weighing of a soul for passage and stays or sojourn's in various realms...there is no lovey-dovey "new age" free lunch,  karma is exacting and can only be super ceded by a higher divine force taking  action per its wise need.

 

 

There is no judge in that the Dao (for lack of a better word for "?") doesn't pass moral judgment.  There is no concept of good and evil, just denseness and lightness, or darkness and lightness, once it's realized that all is one.  We are like a huge electrical cord with millions of different copper wires in it, each of us feeling separate; but that is the illusion.  We are all the cord, the same cord.  To pass judgment on one of the other copper wires is silly.  It'll just have to be doing some more recycling until he makes the realization that he is indeed an electrical cord.  It may take millions of years.

 

Personally, I think the concept of other defined realms and statuses are an archaic human construct.  It seems appropriate to me that one of the definitions of enlightenment is that there are no more structures.  No more 'have to's'.  If there are remnants of a structure left in one's idea of enlightenment, then it would stand that other people are eliminated in this equation.  If their structure is still in place, then certainly they can't be an enlightened one because his structure is different, and certainly my structure is righter than his structure.

 

It seems to me, Bob, that your concept of realms still has punishment attached to it.  That's a crucial difference, and a difference that's worthy of a lot of consideration.

[Indiken]

11 minutes ago, manitou said:

that your concept of realms still has punishment attached to it.  That's a crucial difference, and a difference that's worthy of a lot of consideration.

 

some random thoughts:

if person keeps as truth that he will be punished for his actions, he may not do those actions. So this punishment idea could be handy to repress other parts of self (lie to other parts of the self) from taking certain actions, like killing or stealing. Those certain parts desire to kill or steal, but the inner self is not interested, so inner self provides those ideas which the outer self can grasp to prevent killing or stealing.

[old3bob]

47 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

There is no judge in that the Dao (for lack of a better word for "?") doesn't pass moral judgment.  There is no concept of good and evil, just denseness and lightness, or darkness and lightness, once it's realized that all is one.  We are like a huge electrical cord with millions of different copper wires in it, each of us feeling separate; but that is the illusion.  We are all the cord, the same cord.  To pass judgment on one of the other copper wires is silly.  It'll just have to be doing some more recycling until he makes the realization that he is indeed an electrical cord.  It may take millions of years.

 

Personally, I think the concept of other defined realms and statuses are an archaic human construct.  It seems appropriate to me that one of the definitions of enlightenment is that there are no more structures.  No more 'have to's'.  If there are remnants of a structure left in one's idea of enlightenment, then it would stand that other people are eliminated in this equation.  If their structure is still in place, then certainly they can't be an enlightened one because his structure is different, and certainly my structure is righter than his structure.

 

It seems to me, Bob, that your concept of realms still has punishment attached to it.  That's a crucial difference, and a difference that's worthy of a lot of consideration.

 

see the Tibetan Wheel of Life for a good pictorial example of realms, better yet go to the other side and visit various (astral or perhaps even higher) realms where able to, to see first hand good examples of same and the evolved levels of countless Beings  there-in...nothing silly about karmic law which is active until it is not for uncommon Self Realized Beings. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by old3bob

[Bindi]

13 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

umm, right how could the Absolute judge the Absolute...but there are also countless souls and realms and you can bet your bottom dollar that there is some form of judgement or spiritual weighing of a soul for passage and stays or sojourn's in various realms...there is no lovey-dovey "new age" free lunch,  karma is exacting and can only be super ceded by a higher divine force taking  action per its wise need.

I’ve considered recently the idea that karma may be kundalini as a personal creative force creating our existential fears in the material world, because she is not in union with shiva or the higher consciousness principle, so she just keeps on manufacturing her own unenlightened fear reactions, and we keep trying to defend ourselves against them. When she is reunified with shiva, this higher consciousness principle can then direct her appropriately to create in alignment with the Dao. 

[Lairg]

8 hours ago, manitou said:

There is no concept of good and evil, just denseness and lightness, or darkness and lightness,

 

My own experience is similar to the Tzimtzum.  There is an outbreath from the Source that becomes darker and separated - as a vehicle for the Source to experience.  At the same time there is an inbreath towards light and unity.

 

During Existence both breaths occur in parallel with human partaking of each in order to maintain balance.

 

In that context the human taking too much dark outbreath may be seen as improper/evil and taking too much inbreath light may also be seen as improper.

 

For example, the human that gives too much without taking time to rebuild will often burn out - and thereby not achieve its design functionality.  Is that more common in women?

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Lairg

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

karma may be kundalini as a personal creative force creating our existential fears in the material world

 

 

Perhaps there is also astral karma, mental karma, buddhic karma, atmic karma etc

 

Does the Mother Earth experience karma?

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

 

Perhaps there is also astral karma, mental karma, buddhic karma, atmic karma etc

 

Maybe they’re just words and concepts complicating what is actually quite a simple yet inexorable process. 

 

2 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Does the Mother Earth experience karma?

I wouldn’t think so, but who knows? 

[Lairg]

What experiments might one make?

 

 

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’ve considered recently the idea that karma may be kundalini as a personal creative force creating our existential fears in the material world, because she is not in union with shiva or the higher consciousness principle, so she just keeps on manufacturing her own unenlightened fear reactions, and we keep trying to defend ourselves against them. When she is reunified with shiva, this higher consciousness principle can then direct her appropriately to create in alignment with the Dao. 

 

I'm not qualified or in know on a lot of this stuff...I would say that Kundalini gone wrong instead of sleeping or being improperly messed with through forced and or unsafe practices without a qualified teachers guidance is not the right way to go!  Btw if souls could short change or get away with breaking karma/Dharma in the long run then we would all be SOL.

[manitou]

6 hours ago, Lairg said:

What experiments might one make?

 

 

 

 

Well, something involving volcanic eruptions, I would think, lol....

[manitou]

17 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

some random thoughts:

if person keeps as truth that he will be punished for his actions, he may not do those actions. So this punishment idea could be handy to repress other parts of self (lie to other parts of the self) from taking certain actions, like killing or stealing. Those certain parts desire to kill or steal, but the inner self is not interested, so inner self provides those ideas which the outer self can grasp to prevent killing or stealing.

 

 

Staying with this idea, there's no doubt that punishment is handy to repress children, for example.  I would guess that most of the world sees it like this.  But when one gets close to enlightenment, the concept of punishment and reward is superfluous.  Because a person has done the necessary work to make one's self as transparent as possible, devoid of prior conditioning, you're right - the inner self is no longer interested in those things which are destructive to self or others.