Angry Daoists

[styrofoamdog]

I joined two days ago to ask a question about Wang Liping, and the answers that I got were very helpful. However, after reading through a variety of the other threads, I think it's sad that the level of anger and dogmatism is so great on this forum. To me it seems very antithetical to argue and intellectualize the nature of the Dao.

 

When French missionaries first encountered Daoism, they described the Daoists as evil, and their ideas about immortality as ridiculous. Ever since that time, the West has (often overtly) portrayed "proper" Daoism as philosophical ideas from Laozi and Zhuangzi, and everything else as corruption. Early visitors were happy to arrogantly look down on practicing Daoists with scorn, when they in fact had little to no understanding of their practices.

 

The history of Daoism in China is very long, and its culture has been a rich one of mutual respect. An inner elixir cultivator would respect someone who practiced magic from Maoshan, who would in turn respect a Daoist gongfu master. They practiced what they felt was effective for them, but they recognized the skill and accomplishment of those from other sects as well. They didn't argue with each other about the Dao -- they practiced it daily.

[Taiji Bum]

Yeah, people say that alot. But this place grows on you. Just yield, stick and then give the angry ones a little push.

[Cameron]

That's just their way of opening up to eachother, like drunks at a bar but full of qi instead of alcohol

[YMWong]

However, after reading through a variety of the other threads, I think it's sad that the level of anger and dogmatism is so great on this forum. To me it seems very antithetical to argue and intellectualize the nature of the Dao.

 

Hello Styrofoamdog,

 

I also just got here a couple of days ago but I don't see *anger* but (more or less) animated discussions.

 

I deeply believe that everyone is entitled to his own opinions and that - usually - those don't change because "somebody on the web said different".

 

It is however, in my opinion, the actual scope of a tool like the web that everybody's opinion is told and heard.

When somebody then stumble upon such discussion he/she will have the tools and will see more than simply one side of the coins ... and might be able to make up his/her mind.

 

Needless to say, respect for the persons should always be present but opinions - and possibly facts as objective as possible - shall be presented for the sake of everybody's understanding.

 

A few years ago there was another "daoist case" which made a huge news: not sure how many remember Charles Belyea (aka Liu Ming).

 

Another of these guys who created a following based on their power to impress others and on many stories.

These stories are always about the same: Belyea had been "many years in Taiwan" and studied with "a daoist in the mountains" who had transmitted "Orthodox Daoism" to him as only successors bla bla bla.

"Liu Ming" even was passed down secret manuscripts and ordination manuals from as early as the Han dynasty that - however - were just too precious to be handled and shown and he was keeping them in a safe-box of a bank.

 

His case was a bit special because he climbed the ladder of fame fast since - by chance - Academia had organized a Conference of Daoist Studies in which, for the first time, pratictioners would gather with scholars in a mutual exchange.

To make a story short, at the Conference Prof. Schipper went to his knees and in a show worth of Broadway saying that Belyea could have been his Master.

 

For those who know Schipper that would mean a different thing than for most, but the case generated further promotion for the "Orthodox Daoist".

 

Later, exactly because of exchanges like those you are reading here, the truth came to light and Belyea (who has been in Taiwan very briefly and was selling a pout-pourri of things for "Orthodox Daoism") lost most of his following.

 

People like these have of course a place in this society and they actually provide a service for those that need it. It is therefore right IMHO that they ask to be paid, and if the amount is OK with their students just fine.

 

The only issue that I see is when they claim things that are not true and cannot back-up with hard evidence.

That's trickery.

 

YM

[Sahaj Nath]

The history of Daoism in China is very long, and its culture has been a rich one of mutual respect. An inner elixir cultivator would respect someone who practiced magic from Maoshan, who would in turn respect a Daoist gongfu master. They practiced what they felt was effective for them, but they recognized the skill and accomplishment of those from other sects as well. They didn't argue with each other about the Dao -- they practiced it daily.

 

you seem to have a very romanticized view of Daoism and Chinese culture. what you describe is historically counter-factual. LOTS of dogmatism among the schools. LOTS of fighting between clans. only in recent times have the various schools and disciplines come to a place of mutual respect, and probably only because so many of them face extinction without the umbrella of mutual support.

 

also, i would venture to say that most of the poeple on this site are not Daoist.

 

 

we're not saints. for that matter, the saints weren't even saints! there are stories of living buddhas getting fed up and throwing rocks at their disciples just to be left alone. no living being gets to trade in all the shortcomings of their humanity in exchange for divinity.

 

there is beauty even in conflict. we can't chose how others act, but we can chose what meaning those actions have for us.

[styrofoamdog]

Those are all good points. I'm not bothered by people doubting the authenticity of certain figures. I think that some well-known "masters" should be scrutinized. However, with the subject of supernatural abilities, it's pretty tough to judge one way or another, unless you have experienced them first-hand.

 

Maybe I joined at a strange time. I had never even heard of David Verdesi before.

[Ian]

 

A few years ago there was another "daoist case" which made a huge news: not sure how many remember Charles Belyea (aka Liu Ming).

 

 

I've met this chap, as has Sean, our webmaster. His take on various controversies about him was pretty humble and quite amusing. Which is not to claim that he is genuine in any particular way, but it does give me pause to think that "the truth" might be a bit overstated also.

[Patrick Brown]

I figure there's a lot less friction on this forum than most others. As for some members here not being Taoists, well that sounds like a contradiction. I see Taoism as being the most accessible of all systems/philosophies because it risks not taking itself too seriously. If somebody has read or reads the Tao Te Ching and wants to call themselves a Taoists that's cool with me.

 

As for masters...

[YMWong]

I've met this chap, as has Sean, our webmaster. His take on various controversies about him was pretty humble and quite amusing. Which is not to claim that he is genuine in any particular way, but it does give me pause to think that "the truth" might be a bit overstated also.

 

He was invited by the BTA a number of times, yes, I seem to recall.

I think he is still out there teaching with a lesser following, but I haven't heard about him in a while.

 

Most of these 'daoists' have all similar background and tell similar stories.

 

YM

[de_paradise]

So far I have seen no true belligerant idiots on this forum, on the contrary, some people are just too darn nice so I think they are repressing something.

 

I do enjoy the little spats, to see the emotions and hurt ego get worked into their logic. Its so predictable. Of course I check my own bitchiness too, because I want to know why.

 

If I made an idealistic sweeping judgement kind of statement, I would certainly look into myself to see what I was reacting against, and how to phrase this kind of thing in an unobtrusive constructive way.

[Pietro]

So far I have seen no true belligerant idiots on this forum, on the contrary, some people are just too darn nice so I think they are repressing something....

 

fuck off!

 

Sorry, I am just trying to make you feel confortable

 

 

I know, I know Sean, I'll shut up for one week.

[Patrick Brown]

[Taiji Bum]

So far I have seen no true belligerant idiots on this forum, on the contrary, some people are just too darn nice so I think they are repressing something.

Who are the "just too darn nice" ones? TheLearner? Yoda?

[Spectrum]

Attachment to "Ideas" ...

[rain]

Who are the "just too darn nice" ones? TheLearner? Yoda?

 

 

cough

[sheng zhen]

cough

Rain, I remember you once said this:

 

incredibly cow the warergy first corom then gle yoe astspect an

TADAA

m. rsjang poup fro dehind mr. rajnd Eer..

 

posergetic counterwave jst liin a tub...muust b d

cir cles

Im not shure, but that dosent sound nice... Mr.Jang poop from behind Mr.Raindeer??? hahaha

[rain]

Rain, I remember you once said this:

Im not shure, but that dosent sound nice... Mr.Jang poop from behind Mr.Raindeer??? hahaha

 

 

clapping hands..verry happy Sheng zhen! you noticed! but what did you hear? Ahaa.

Tadaa aadaaT? THAT is the question.

 

mr. Sjang popped up? from behind mr. R. Aind Eer...

(after he had hidden there and like big wolf blown down the piglets cardhouse?)

 

mm?........

 

 

it is not good to say what is real or not when people are filming..

 

 

darn nice. all.

Edited May 16, 2008 by rain

[sheng zhen]

clapping hands..verry happy Sheng zhen! you noticed! but what did you hear? Ahaa.

Tadaa aadaaT? THAT is the question.

 

mr. Sjang popped up? from behind mr. R. Aind Eer...

(after he had hidden there and like big wolf blown down the piglets cardhouse?)

 

mm?........

[doc benway]

I'm impressed with the level of civility given that Sean allows a very generous rein in terms of censorship.

Most other forums I've dabbled in are a bit quicker to interfere.

Given the nature of discussion here, I think it's a pretty agreeable place outside of a handful of hot topics and controversial individuals.

[Patrick Brown]

Hot topics!

 

*sniggers *

[Son Goku]

That's just their way of opening up to eachother, like drunks at a bar but full of qi instead of alcohol

 

I love you Cameron (If you're a guy- no homo, If your last name is Diaz- call me!)

[Spectrum]

LOL. But what did YOU hear? My the acoustics in here are good.

[rain]

LOL. But what did YOU hear? My the acoustics in here are good.

 

 

oh oh..

*squat*

thunderdome! - ome - ome...

Dangaroou..

(looks like medicine man is back

the guy I thought was sinister)

 

footwork footwork

 

gee I long for the old days

when the red ball thing was enough.

Edited May 18, 2008 by rain

[Wayfarer64]

" no living being gets to trade in all the shortcomings of their humanity in exchange for divinity. "

 

This "rings a bell with me" ... I have recuring feelings of resentment for people who have done me harm in the past ...that I am trying very diligently to transcend and thus attend to my better instincts rather then dwell on revenge - (or even just ill will as it pops into my mind - as I am sometimes forced to recollect what angers me)...I can easily accept a new way to be... yet I seem unwillingly attached to my own past (in this life alone that is a serious anchor)

 

Still, realizing that the feelings are of my human componant and my will to transcend these emotions is my "spiritual self" regaining a sense of otherness from my human distractions and yearnings gives me some sense of direction to attain a more "devine" state of being...

 

But that is not the same kind nor level of anger that comes and goes with happenstances that are fleeting and minor-thus much easier to get past and leave behind...

 

In all the use of emotions is a good thing. I can use anger as a tool as well as an obstruction for my better self -as becoming angry at the stupidity of George Bush's theft of my nation's progress and wealth to boost his buddies obscene profits etc...Lifts my energies to protest such activities etc...

[Sahaj Nath]

" no living being gets to trade in all the shortcomings of their humanity in exchange for divinity. "

 

This "rings a bell with me" ... I have recuring feelings of resentment for people who have done me harm in the past ...that I am trying very diligently to transcend and thus attend to my better instincts rather then dwell on revenge - (or even just ill will as it pops into my mind - as I am sometimes forced to recollect what angers me)...I can easily accept a new way to be... yet I seem unwillingly attached to my own past (in this life alone that is a serious anchor)

 

Still, realizing that the feelings are of my human componant and my will to transcend these emotions is my "spiritual self" regaining a sense of otherness from my human distractions and yearnings gives me some sense of direction to attain a more "devine" state of being...

 

But that is not the same kind nor level of anger that comes and goes with happenstances that are fleeting and minor-thus much easier to get past and leave behind...

 

In all the use of emotions is a good thing. I can use anger as a tool as well as an obstruction for my better self -as becoming angry at the stupidity of George Bush's theft of my nation's progress and wealth to boost his buddies obscene profits etc...Lifts my energies to protest such activities etc...

 

if i might make a suggestion, and it strikes at the heart of that to which i was alluding. and if i'm wrong then ignore it:

 

you cannot truly transcend unless you first embrace. you cannot have healing unless you first have ownership. these are phrases i throw at my students all the time.

 

it sounds as if you're seeking to disassociate from your feelings, and you write as if you've already done that to an extent, as your "recurring feelings of resentment" sound very distant from who you believe yourself to be. it's just some thing. a tool that won't seem to behave or something. the problem is that disassociation of that sort will never make it go away; in fact, it typically makes healing all the more difficult because of an unwillingness to fully embrace those feelings as a part of you.

 

how often do you sit with yourself, without judgment, and allow the good, the bad, and the ugly within you to just be? this is why so often i say "the saints weren't even saints." they were all just as (un)broken as we are.

 

what i say is feel the resentment, and also feel the shame for "not being better than that," and anything else that might arise. really know yourself, and don't make yourself wrong for feeling. just own it, and you'll naturally cultivate greater compassion for your own flawed humanity as well as the flawed humanity in others. you will be much more skillful in your relationships with others when you can fully embrace your shadow material.

 

 

transcendence will happen in its own time if you're able to embrace the whole of you.

 

 

beautiful AND grotesque. just like the Tao.