On Personal Goodness

[Iri]

I often encounter that Dao practices require their practitioners to be ‘of good character’ - virtuous, sincere, empathetic etc. Take Pangu’s maxim as an example, or talks about Flying Phoenix not helping ‘bad people’.

Though ‘goodness’ is not something you can directly control unless enlightened. I can choose to raise my hand, but can’t choose to forgive a terrible thing straight away.

So if a person who doesn’t have this control tries to be good to someone who they hate inside, they’d suppress their emotions thus making huge harm to themselves. So ‘trying’ good deeds while being not ideal inside is actually more damaging to you than just being who you are and accepting it.

 

2 questions I have about it:

 

1) Do the teachings actually imply that you shouldn’t do good if you don’t feel like it? For the sake of not destroying yourself? Or should you blindly do kindness no matter how it resonates inside? What about the harm of suppressing then, which in my experience is not compensated by any good deeds (say, people pleasers).

 

2) Do the practices actually help us reach that better nature, become sincerely good, so that you don’t need to suppress anything when dealing with negative stuff? Say, I’m a bad person who wants to become a good person - will Flying Phoenix help me transform? Or being not good enough just shuts this opportunity because ‘Flying Phoenix doesn’t help bad ppl’?

 

Thank you!

[liminal_luke]

While a few people may fall squarely in the saint or sinner basket, most of us are neither good nor bad in our essence but rather just hurt people doing what we can in a sometimes messed up world.  The practices that I find worth doing help me become healthier and happier, and as my life gets better I find I treat other people better too: win-win.  I'm more accepting of myself and others, less irritable.  

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Iri said:

Say, I’m a bad person who wants to become a good person - will Flying Phoenix help me transform? Or being not good enough just shuts this opportunity because ‘Flying Phoenix doesn’t help bad ppl’?

nothing will help you period. until you understand that there is no good nor bad. both good and bad are just crazy talk. once you understand it - then everything will help you.

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Iri said:

I often encounter that Dao practices require their practitioners to be ‘of good character’ - virtuous, sincere, empathetic etc. Take Pangu’s maxim as an example, or talks about Flying Phoenix not helping ‘bad people’.

Though ‘goodness’ is not something you can directly control unless enlightened. I can choose to raise my hand, but can’t choose to forgive a terrible thing straight away.

So if a person who doesn’t have this control tries to be good to someone who they hate inside, they’d suppress their emotions thus making huge harm to themselves. So ‘trying’ good deeds while being not ideal inside is actually more damaging to you than just being who you are and accepting it.

 

2 questions I have about it:

 

1) Do the teachings actually imply that you shouldn’t do good if you don’t feel like it? For the sake of not destroying yourself? Or should you blindly do kindness no matter how it resonates inside? What about the harm of suppressing then, which in my experience is not compensated by any good deeds (say, people pleasers).

 

2) Do the practices actually help us reach that better nature, become sincerely good, so that you don’t need to suppress anything when dealing with negative stuff? Say, I’m a bad person who wants to become a good person - will Flying Phoenix help me transform? Or being not good enough just shuts this opportunity because ‘Flying Phoenix doesn’t help bad ppl’?

 

Thank you!

 

It all depends .  Should you 'do good'  / show kindness to someone who is doing bad things and creating cruelty and suffering . if you want to 'do good' should you not try to alleviate the suffering caused by another . or would you just let them run wild ?

 

Some people need to be 'bought in line' . others, as Luke points out, might have a problem or an issue that can be dealt with differently . So it isnt about just doing good, its about 'discernment' . 

 

I'd suggest 'cultivating' these skills , in this order ;  first collate knowledge ( about the situation, so as to make a better informed decision ) .  Then understanding  ; perhaps a person is doing bad things because they keep getting away with it and no one disciplined or stopped them , or perhaps they need sympathy and support in better ways .  You need to understand a situation, the whys and wherefores. Next comes wisdom ; wisdom is the realization of what may be the outcome and effects of your subsequent actions .

 

Know that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression  YET unbalanced mercy allows and abets evil to exist .

 

But generally, in day to day affairs,   going around    'doing good'  ......  is a good idea .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

nothing will help you period. until you understand that there is no good nor bad. both good and bad are just crazy talk. once you understand it - then everything will help you.

 

 

yes yes .... thats the spirit   < pats him on the back  .......  while lifting his wallet   >     

[old3bob]

18 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

While a few people may fall squarely in the saint or sinner basket, most of us are neither good nor bad in our essence but rather just hurt people doing what we can in a sometimes messed up world.  The practices that I find worth doing help me become healthier and happier, and as my life gets better I find I treat other people better too: win-win.  I'm more accepting of myself and others, less irritable.  

 

I'd say that ultimately and in "essence" there is only one of us, that some call The Self per the Upanishads.  Which does not mean we don't have to deal with billions (x trillions)  of often complicated variations!

Edited June 24, 2023 by old3bob

[johndoe2012]

If you practice enough you'll end up 'good' but note sometimes you have to be a badass since some people only understand things the hard way. 

 

People pleasing is not something you deal with in qigong. You might have to look into divine energy healing, kiloby inquiries or something else. 

[Eduardo]

El 23-06-2023 a las 8:24, Iri dijo:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Eduardo
Delete

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

On 23/06/2023 at 1:24 PM, Iri said:

1) Do the teachings actually imply that you shouldn’t do good if you don’t feel like it? For the sake of not destroying yourself? Or should you blindly do kindness no matter how it resonates inside? What about the harm of suppressing then, which in my experience is not compensated by any good deeds (say, people pleasers).

Doing good things repeatedly will create a habit of doing good things and change your mindset, eventually it will make you good. 

 

On 23/06/2023 at 1:24 PM, Iri said:

2) Do the practices actually help us reach that better nature, become sincerely good, so that you don’t need to suppress anything when dealing with negative stuff? Say, I’m a bad person who wants to become a good person - will Flying Phoenix help me transform? Or being not good enough just shuts this opportunity because ‘Flying Phoenix doesn’t help bad ppl’?

Post this question in the Flying Phoenix thread so Sifu Terry can explain it to you

[johndoe2012]

On people pleasing 'being nice' 

 

 

All kinds of childhood patterns, traumas need to be addressed. Neither Buddhism nor Daoism do this, you have you look elsewhere for techniques. 

[nyerstudent]

I think there are also many levels to kindness. “People pleasing” may be a superficial kindness that more helps you feel good, vs truly being kind to someone else.

For instance, withholding a drug from an addict in a moment may be met with anger, but it might actually be more helpful and appreciated by them when they can step back and have perspective. 
 

In my experience, Flying Phoenix can help open up your heart, which can help you navigate those situations more easily and act with greater kindness. So can SFQ or Pangu qigong.

Edited July 1, 2023 by nyerstudent

[manitou]

3 hours ago, nyerstudent said:

I think there are also many levels to kindness. “People pleasing” may be a superficial kindness that more helps you feel good, vs truly being kind to someone else.

For instance, withholding a drug from an addict in a moment may be met with anger, but it might actually be more helpful and appreciated by them when they can step back and have perspective. 
 

In my experience, Flying Phoenix can help open up your heart, which can help you navigate those situations more easily and act with greater kindness. So can SFQ or Pangu qigong.

 

 

A fellow friend of Bill's, no doubt?

[manitou]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:32 AM, Taoist Texts said:

nothing will help you period. until you understand that there is no good nor bad. both good and bad are just crazy talk. once you understand it - then everything will help you.

 

 

This is profound, Taoist Texts!

 

If you ask a parent 'what is bad?', they may say the teenager who sells dope on the corner is bad.

If you ask the teenager on the corner 'what is bad?' , he could say "the a-hole who stole my stash last night"

 

The point being, it's all relative, and there is nobody to make the final judgment.  I thought it was bad that I was a stumbling drunk, but now I realize that getting to Recovery was what it was all about.  It was the best thing that ever happened to me.   It is the inner purging of the personality that will produce the kind of results that lead to enlightenment.  It's not a spiritually hierarchal thing.  It's more of a 'how much can you empty yourself out?' thing.   

 

Crazy talk, for sure.  As though any of this was really happening 

[johndoe2012]

Nothing is relative, all is relative, nothing is relative 

 

Is a translation of the zen saying 'first there are mountains, then there are no mountains, then there are mountains again' 

 

The middle stage is the non dual bypass discussed by Scott Kiloby by using presence as an escape from the unconscious emotions. 

 

It feels like emptiness but actually is the shutdown mechanism the body-mind uses to not face deeper emotions.

[thelerner]

I am all for being nice and doing good deeds; even if it's superficial, even if done just to make myself feel good**.  Cause I like feeling good and there's so much need in the world.  A little kindness goes a long way.  Screw philosophy, cause a person in need was helped; they might smile, be relieved.  They might pass it on.

 

Beware of making promises you can't keep but if you can help someone, without too much inconvenience, do it.  Do it selflessly or selfishly.  Give others a hand when you can.  Know your neighbors, share with them.  Respect others unless and until they give you cause not to.  

 

Meditation is important, so are physical practices yet a third leg of practice is listening to Dharma talks.  Learning wisdom from your tradition.  Human issues really don't change, they're just covered up and justified by new types of crap.  

 

** In college I joined Alpha Phi Omega, a co-ed service fraternity, inspired by the boy scouts.   30 hours of service was required each semester.  Isn't that superficial, requiring good deeds.  Yet we did them, cleaned parks, shoveling lawns.. projects that helped the community or needy individuals.  And we partied, it was good.  

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by thelerner

[Chaos Goddess]

A Kung Fu sifu friend of mine once told me all the "ethics" and "morals" are to control you. How may times have we seen the "devotees" of a certain teacher, preacher or guru behaving while the guru, teacher or preacher is abusing his or her devotees or sometimes worse? Isn't the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? I'm all for doing good things even sometimes when maybe the person doesn't seem to deserve it, but it's just my own self expression and not some edict or guilt trip where I feel I have to be some plaster saint. I'm not saying there aren't lines I won't cross, but those are the ones I decided for myself. I've also told people off and dumped friends and even relatives who weren't a positive influences in my life. Am I bad or just being me? I vote for being yourself and not feeling you have to be anyone else's idea of who you should be. Others also have the right to be who they are and learn their lessons. Live and let live.

[Daniel]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:32 AM, Taoist Texts said:

nothing will help you period. until you understand that there is no good nor bad. both good and bad are just crazy talk. once you understand it - then everything will help you.

 

If I understand what you're saying, applying it produces a paradox:

1. "Misunderstand good and bad" = bad, nothing will help you.
2. "Understanding there is no good nor bad" = good, everything will help you.
3. "There is no good nor bad" = false?

This sort of paradox is characteristic of mutually exclusive concepts.  Extremes.  When you say it's "crazy talk", I imagine two people arguing about a bowl.  One person points to the bowl and says "it's a bowl, it's empty."  Then the other person flips it and says, "it's a dome, it's full."  And this arguing goes on and on, the bowl is flipping, flipping, flipping, and both people appear to be lunatics to any objective outside observer.

 

Or perhaps it's an individual, and the concept they are considering is multi-layered, like a set of russian dolls.  As they unpack each layer, they are presented with the positive image on the surface, and its inverted negative space on the interior.  To any objective observer, it will appear crazy for the individual to inspect each layer outside and inside, endlessly looking for significance distinguishing between the inner and outer details.

 

But good and bad don't really operate that way.  Mutually exclusive concepts are like open and closed.  If those same individuals sat down to have chat about a ball and cup or considered them independently, there would be no arguing.  No crazy talk.  No endless flipping and inspecting.  The ball is obviously closed.  The cup is obviously open.  The ball will never be open.  The cup will never be closed.

 

The capability to flip any disadvantage into advantage so that "everything will help you" comes from clarity and flexibility.  Both are required.  Both, sequentially ( not simultaneously ).  Unqualified "there is no good nor bad" obscures this. In order to exploit any and all disadvantages, the properties of the disadvantage need clear definition, not oblivion nor ambivalence.  This clear defintion is like the the inner-most doll in the set of russian dolls, or the mould that is used to produce the set of bowls.  That's the clarity which is requried.  But after that, it is the intention behind their construction, in addition to the physical parameters which produces the clarity, the definition, the borders which are defining the circumstance.  This is where flexibility is required.

 

In the Art of War, when the general attacks with fire, the proper action is determined based how the enemy reacts.  The general is lifting themselves out of their position in their mind, and placing themself into the opposing general's "shoes" to predict their state of readiness and whether the opposition will be able to use the fire to their own advantage.  Evaluating good vs. bad is accomplished the same way in all other circumstances.   

 

When evaluating good and bad, the individual lifts themself up and out of their position and considers whether the concept is intended to be encouraged and adopted, or discouraged and shunned.  When this evalutation is correct, both good and bad are always helpful.  The good is helpful when it is adopted.  The bad is helpful when it is shunned.  

 

Because of this a heirarchy is produced which resolves the paradox identified in the beginning of the post.

 

Clarity encourages flexibility.

Flexibility discourages clarity.

 

Clarity is primary then flexibility.  This, imo, cannot be flipped.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Daniel