Sadhguru on being stoned and alert at the same time without intoxicants

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

On 07/07/2023 at 10:08 PM, Nungali said:

Pass me the blunt my dude

 

Also I wonder how high you get when you smoke during full lotus

[stirling]

Meditation, and Enlightenment are BOTH psychedelic. Doing psychedelics does occasionally hint at the time/space/self-less qualities of non-dual understanding, but often not in the ways you imagine it. It is NOT being stoned, drunkenness, or nodding off. When working with the jhanas there IS an opiated feeling to sitting in the body (sukha) when you know what you are looking for, but it is hard to hang on to, and leads to much more useful states. These states are ONLY analogs of what the understanding of complete insight gives, and therefore arise and pass like all other impermanent phenomena. 

 

There is nothing wrong with comparing SOME these states to layers of insight, but where there is insight the experience is much subtler, deeper, and broader. As layers of conditioning come away there are some very visceral and interesting ways in which our concreted ideas about reality get teased apart, and our beliefs in what is real or possible shift and fall away . 

 

As for Sahdguru, any appearance in consciousness can be a teacher. All appearances are "bhagwan". The entire dharmakaya, or phenomenal reality, is already enlightened. I'm not sure why Sadhguru would be excluded. My suggestion would be to look at what attachment or aversion you have to Sadhguru's statement and see what fixed ideas you need to drop. 

[Nungali]

 

No thanks Stirling ..... if I see a fault that is clearly there , and especially if my subjective  viewpoint is supported by others ... and also by my own experience , I am not merely going to  'drop issues ' because  'reality is already enlightened '.

 

And I am certainly not going to support such a narrow and incorrect viewpoint concerning psychoactive drugs and societal issues just because someone claims to be , and/or is held up to be a guru or 'spiritual;/teacher' .   Otherwise  I might end up like the others and take 'holy ash' from a 'spiritual teacher'  to help relieve my poverty .... or cure my cancer .

 

In other words  , personal discernment would be  thrown out the window .

 

But thank you for your judgement anyway .

Edited July 10, 2023 by Nungali
to correct a mistake pointed out by Sterling .

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

No thanks Stirling ..... if I see a fault that is clearly there , and especially if my objective viewpoint is supported by others ... and also by my own experience , I am not merely going to  'drop issues ' because  'reality is already enlightened '.

 

And I am certainly not going to support such a narrow and incorrect viewpoint concerning psychoactive drugs and societal issues just because someone claims to be , and/or is held up to be a guru or 'spiritual;/teacher' .   Otherwise  I might end up like the others and take 'holy ash' from a 'spiritual teacher'  to help relieve my poverty .... or cure my cancer .

 

In other words  , personal discernment would be  thrown out the window .

 

But thank you for your judgement anyway .

 

Now now.... those aren't MY words, they are yours. I call foul.  I haven't said that it is wrong to recognize faults in others, or that you should drop issues, accept Sadhgurus beliefs, or throw personal discernment out the window.

 

What I said was all appearances in consciousness are enlightened, and mirror our attachments and aversions back at us. It might be a great place to learn about attachment to gurus, your personal biases, attachment to solidified ideas about drugs, spirituality, your aversion to religion or religious practices. I don't know what attachments or aversions you might have, but you will, and DO if you have any. You can simply look back at your past experience, or your cherished opinions, or your self-image and see what they are. This is where the teaching lies in this case.

 

One other small point: Please share with me the name of the one person in the world who has an objective viewpoint. I would be keen to meet them.

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Now now.... those aren't MY words, they are yours. I call foul.  I haven't said that it is wrong to recognize faults in others, or that you should drop issues, accept Sadhgurus beliefs, or throw personal discernment out the window.

 

What I said was all appearances in consciousness are enlightened, and mirror our attachments and aversions back at us. It might be a great place to learn about attachment to gurus, your personal biases, attachment to solidified ideas about drugs, spirituality, your aversion to religion or religious practices. I don't know what attachments or aversions you might have, but you will, and DO if you have any. You can simply look back at your past experience, or your cherished opinions, or your self-image and see what they are. This is where the teaching lies in this case.

 

That gets done from time to time  ( I have been a round a long time  and done two Saturn returns )  all those processes  + what I came with + likewise yours above + place +   'now'  =  Nungali . ... wait on  ......   the unique one and only  Nungali  ! 

 

One other small point: Please share with me the name of the one person in the world who has an objective viewpoint. I would be keen to meet them. . 

 

Ooops ... I edited accordingly . 

 

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

Now now.... those aren't MY words, they are yours. I call foul.  I haven't said that it is wrong to recognize faults in others, or that you should drop issues, accept Sadhgurus beliefs, or throw personal discernment out the window.

 

What I said was all appearances in consciousness are enlightened, and mirror our attachments and aversions back at us. It might be a great place to learn about attachment to gurus, your personal biases, attachment to solidified ideas about drugs, spirituality, your aversion to religion or religious practices. I don't know what attachments or aversions you might have, but you will, and DO if you have any. You can simply look back at your past experience, or your cherished opinions, or your self-image and see what they are. This is where the teaching lies in this case.

 

That gets done from time to time  ( I have been a round a long time  and done two Saturn returns )  all those processes  + what I came with + likewise yours above + place +   'now'  =  Nungali . ... wait on  ......   the unique one and only  Nungali  !  

 

One other small point: Please share with me the name of the one person in the world who has an objective viewpoint. I would be keen to meet them. . 

 

Ooops ... I edited accordingly .

 

You are a good egg, my friend. I appreciate your even-handedness, kindness and respect. 

 

Deep bows, to you sir.

[silent thunder]

So many aspects of life elicit intoxication within...  Rain.  Rain is absolutely mesmerizing and intoxicating.

 

Music and cooking for loved ones top my list of late.  Earth wracking thunderstorms, WOW!.  and crickets. 

 

I get very high simply thinking about Monarch egg laying season approaching and when the Monarchs we foster emerge from their Chrysalis and walk about on my hands and arms before flying off our balcony, it's beyond words.

 

Holding my sleeping cat...  high as fuck!  Watching my gal and son work on higher Algebra together too.

 

I'm also partial to cannabis and coffee, pranayama and sitting in relative silence, and always do I adore the lovely charged response of watching my wife's hips swiveling joyously to a steady beat while she smiles and slides through the music playing in our lounge room.

 

In my experience, any aspect of life that provides a reaction whether emotional, physical or psyche based, can elicit a desire to pursue and become habitual.  Is experience external or internal?  Does addiction arise within, or from without?  Does pleasure and pain arise from within, or without?  Blaming the external object for the internal reaction seems like blaming the finger for being responsible for the presence of the Moon, to me.

 

Chains of Iron or Chains of Gold, both seeminlgy grip one into Maya as effectively as the other. 

 

All that I despise and all that I crave, arise from one source and return to that...

so the distinctions between these, must lie within I as well?

 

*sips coffee and folds into lotus... reaches for the vape.

 

And Dao Bums... I get a special charge from logging on here.

Love! 

[Nungali]

...  he called me an egg !  

 

 

 

... and Silent Thunder ... why  are you letting your cat get ' as high as fuck '   ?  Thats very irresponsible , you do know where you are going to have to send him now  ....

 

 

Spoiler

 

[silent thunder]

[Nungali]

I'll betchya cats  aint got no gurus  ! 

[silent thunder]

I have lived with several zen masters, most of them feline.

[Ajay0]

The enlightened sage Meher Baba has also emphasized the futility of using drugs to perceive the truth or attain the naturally blissful state of enlightenment...
 

https://avatarmeherbabatrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/God-in-a-Pill.pdf
 

Some of his sayings on this subject...

 

Quote

 

Many people in India smoke hashish and ganja — they see colors and forms and lights. It makes them elated, but this elation is only temporary; it is a false experience. It gives only experience of illusion — it heightens illusion — and serves as simply another veil over Reality, taking one farther away from it. 

 

In an age when individual liberty is prized above all achievements, the fast- increasing number of drug addicts forms an appalling chain of self-sought bondage! Even as these drugs hold out an invitation to a fleeting sense of ecstasy, freedom or escape, they enslave the individual in greater binding. 

 

‘‘All so-called spiritual experiences generated by taking ‘mindchanging’ drugs such as LSD, mescaline and psilocybin are superficial and add enormously to one’s addiction to the deceptions of illusion which is but the shadow of Reality.

 

“The experience is as far removed from Reality as is a mirage from water. No matter how much one pursues the mirage one will never reach water and the search for God through drugs must end in disillusionment. One who knows the Way, who is the Way cannot approve the continued pursuance of a method that not only must prove fruitless but leads away from the Path that leads to Reality. 

 

As for possible use of the drug by an enlightened society for spiritual purposes—an enlightened society would never dream of using it! “

 

“If God can be found through the medium of any drug, God is not worthy of being God.” ~ Meher Baba

 

 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

The enlightened sage Meher Baba has also emphasized the futility of using drugs to perceive the truth or attain the naturally blissful state of enlightenment...

 

 

 

 

WELL, OF COURSE !

 

To perceive the truth or attain the naturally blissful state of enlightenment... MUST preclude  'unnatural'  induced states that resemble the  naturally blissful state of enlightenment...

 

-------------

 

 Meher Babi  comes from a 'Zardusht lineage '  he just happened to settle in Poona  .... one might find some of his own teachers interesting , eg   the 'Sadhguru ' Hazrat Babajan' .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazrat_Babajan

[Ajay0]

Jiddu Krishnamurti has also spoken on the futility of drugs with respect to attaining mental clarity and authentic meditation, as well as its adverse effects on the mind's vitality ..

 

 

Quote

Does it really, does any drug, LSD, marijuana, any of them - does it really expose the totality of the content of consciousness, or does it bring about chemically a certain state of mind which is totally different from the understanding of oneself? These drugs - I have never taken them - they have taken them in India a great deal - I watched many people there. I have also watched students in universities in America, and many, many other people who have been taking various forms of drugs, LSD, marijuana, you know I don't know what all the other names are - psychedelic drugs.

 

If you have observed, these drugs do affect the mind, the brain cells themselves. They destroy the brain. If you have talked to one or many of those who have taken drugs, they can't reason, they can't pursue a logical sequence of thought - and the doctors and the scientists are beginning to say it does destroy the very structure of the brain cells. Not only LSD but marijuana, which is much more dangerous than LSD because that leaves a toxic condition in the brain cells and is more difficult to get rid of. In India they have taken drugs for millions, for thousands of years and they are the most ignorant people who have taken drugs. And all the so-called intellectuals in India have denied it, said don't do it, touch it. I am not asking you not to take it, it's up to you, but when you see the effect of it, on people - they have no sense of responsibility, they think they can do anything they like, many, many hospitals are full of these people who mentally are unbalanced through drugs.


Q: I find your sequence of thought illogical. And also I cannot see how you can argue against drugs if you have not any experience of taking drugs.
K: Ah wait. How can you argue against drugs if you have not taken drugs yourself? Must you go through various forms of experience, must you get drunk in order to understand sobriety? Must you get angry in order to find out what it is not to be angry? Must you over eat in order - and so on and so on. Can't one observe without going through all the human mischief?

 

( 4th Public Talk, Brockwood Park, 1971  / Book: Awakening of Intelligence, Part IX.)

 

 

https://www.jkrishnamurti.org/content/5th-public-talk-29th-november-1970

 

Quote

 

You see we give importance to things that are not important at all. And also in the question of this meditation and experience is involved drugs, LSD, marijuana, various forms of 'Speeds' and so on. It has been going on in India and in Asia for thousands of years, taking drugs, and now it is relegated to the lowest social strata. The poorest, the uneducated - you've no idea, because taking drugs brings about nostalgic remembrances of things that have happened, of psychedelic states. But it's all chemical formula which has no validity at all.

 

A dull, cunning, stupid mind taking drugs, being conditioned, will experience a great many things, but when the drug wears off he's back to his own backyard. So, a man who is enquiring into the question of what is a religious mind must be free of all this, completely; free of drugs, alcohol, any form of stimulus, so that his mind remains clear, without any distortion.

 

 

https://www.jkrishnamurti.org/content/2nd-public-talk-11th-july-1967

 

Quote

If one is dependent on any stimulation, for the energy which one needs, then that very stimulation makes the mind dull, insensitive, not acute. One may take the drug LSD or other forms of drugs and one may temporarily find enough energy to see things very clearly, but one reverts to one's former state and becomes dependent on that drug more and more.

 

All stimulation, whether of the church, of the drink or drug, or the speaker, will inevitably bring about a dependence and that dependence prevents one from having the vital energy to see clearly for oneself. Any form of dependence on any stimulation lessens the quickness and vitality of the mind. We all depend, unfortunately, on something, it may be dependence on a relationship, or on the reading of an intellectual book, or on certain ideas and ideologies we have formulated; or we depend on solitude, isolation, denial, resistance - these obviously distort and dissipate energy.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Ajay0