Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

much in the way of abstractions and foreign jargon which is hard to fathom for those not part of a particular group,  along with contests to see who is best at juggling such things...so it goes with most religions or ways.

 

You can make it as easy or as complicated as you like.  

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Cobie

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

In the "Koroku Fukan zazen gi", he continues:

 

And yet, if a hair's breadth of discrimination exists, the gap is like that between heaven and earth; once the slightest like or dislike arises, all is confused and the mind is lost.

 

...and it's source:

 

Quote

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.

 

If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.

 

When the deep meaning of things is not understood
the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.

 

-  Tsin Tsin Ming, Seng Ts'an

 

Worth a read on its own:

 

https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html#23

 

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

I don't think Dogen equates "open awareness" with shikantaza, in any of his writings (but I could be wrong on that--give me an example, if you can). 

 

Probably not. Its modern terminology meant to bridge the gap between disparate traditions. Still, it is mentioned descriptively in the Wikipedia entry for shikantaza by Merv Fowler, Zen Scholar:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza

 

... and commonly used amongst modern teachers, including me.  There isn't anything controversial about it.

 

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

From Jiryu Mark Rutschman Byler's "Two Shores of Zen":
 

“Shikantaza not here,” he insisted in elementary English, pointing to his head. “Not here,” he continued, pointing to his heart. “Only point here!” He drove his fist into his lower belly, the energy center that the Japanese call hara.

 

("Two Shores of Zen", Jiryu Mark Rutschman-Byler, https://nozeninthewest.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TwoShoresofZenExcerpts.pdf)

 

  

Dosho Port reviewed Jiryu Mark Rutschman Byler's "Two Shores of Zen", and wrote:

 

I too trained at Bukkokuji in 1990-91 and find Jiryu’s  descriptions of his experiences very evocative and quite similar to my own. Harada Tangen Roshi is the real deal. Everyplace is different but if you want a clear view of Bukkokuji and get a sense of practice in Japan, read this book. 

 

(https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxzen/2010/01/two-shores-of-zen-are-western-sanghas-all-of-that.html)

 

I read that passage by Rutschman-Byler, but am not convinced by it. I have read and heard tales of the Hara too, actually from one of Harada's own students, who lives in town here with me. Despite receiving a similar instruction, it was never pushed or mentioned more than once to him, and despite experimentation has not become any kind of important practice. Based on my own experience, I am positive that it is unnecessary for realization. 

 

From the "it's a small world" department, though I haven't heard of him, I can say after looking him up that we actually share lineage through Sojun Mel Weitsman, who my late teacher Jana Drakka had lineage through. Looking at his involvement with Green Gulch and Steve Stucky, I can also say that my teacher most certainly would know him well.  The topic of the "Hara" has never come up, and has never been part of any practice suggestion I have had in any tradition I have worked in. It certainly wasn't part of my formal shikantaza instruction. At its core, shikantaza is formless presence, not attention on any specific place or thing. One excerpt isn't going to sway me there.

 

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

Twice now I have written a long anotated reply, and twice lost it to the Dao Bums editor, which sometimes removes quantities of new text when "control-z" is used (which I do by habit, to back off something I want to correct).

 

Been there! I usually forgo posting after that and come back to it fresh. Sigh.

 

Quote

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.
 

(SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)

 

Gautama identified sixteen elements in his "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" (Woodward), or "the (mind-)development that is mindfulness of in-breathing and out-breathing" (Horner, "Anapanasati").  In the chapter in SN V entitled "About In-breathing and Out-Breathing" (SN V 310, PTS SN V 275), he says that "the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" was his way of life when he was as yet the Bodhisattva (280), and he says that the concentration is the best way of life, the Tathagatha's way of life (289).  Horner translates all but the initial element of the sixteen beginning with "thinking...".  Here's Woodward's translation--setting up mindfulness with the sixteen I think does require thought applied and sustained, initial and sustained, directed and sustained:

 

… Setting mindfulness in front of (oneself), (one) breathes in mindfully and mindfully breathes out.

 

As (one) draws in a long breath (one) knows: A long breath I draw in. [As (one) breathes out a long breath (one) knows: I breathe out a long breath.] As (one) draws in a short breath (one) knows: A short breath I draw in. As (one) breathes out a short breath (one) knows: I breathe out a short breath.

 

Thus (one) makes up (one’s) mind:

 

I shall breathe in, feeling it go through the whole body. Feeling it go through the whole body I shall breath out.

Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe in. Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe out.

 

Thus (one) makes up (one’s) mind:

 

Feeling the thrill of zest I shall breathe in. Feeling the thrill of zest I shall breathe out.

Feeling the sense of ease I shall breathe in. Feeling the sense of ease I shall breathe out.

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

Aware of all mental factors I shall breathe in. Aware of all mental factors I will breathe out.

Calming down the mental factors I shall breathe in. Calming down the mental factors I shall breathe out.

Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out.

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

“Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out.

Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out.

Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out.

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.

Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe in. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe out.

Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out.

Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe in. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe out.

 

The purpose can't be thinking these slogans over and over again, surely? Perhaps they are more like intentions? I dunno, I suppose it could be helpful somehow to the right person, but it isn't anything I would suggest to a student.

 

It probably goes without saying that this isn't anything like Zen practice. None of this would apply to the practice of zazen or shikantaza... it is full of "doing". Nothing wrong with it, but the two aren't really compatible. While the result might end up being pretty much the same (though the Tripitaka realization of "no-self" is only a portion of the realization that is "form is emptiness/emptiness is form") the intent of the practices is very different. Missing especially from the former is the assumption in Mahayana that we are all ALREADY enlightened, so it is quite possible to shift to understanding by just recognizing the "natural state", which is the whole purpose of learning to rest in it. My experience with Mahayana is that this is definitely true.

 

 

Quote

The way I practice:

 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought.  For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind.  I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.

 

Question: What does "thought applied and sustained" mean to you? How does that manifest in your practice.

 

This is the way I practice:

 

I adjust my posture so no muscles are tensed in keeping me upright and straight, and my spine is like a stack of coins. With my eyes closed I take a pass through my body, dropping any muscle tension, usually found in my shoulders. I take a deep breath and relax the mind, letting all thoughts settle out and cease. This might take more than one go. I witness sensation and phenomena arise and cease, unlabeled, unconceptualized and empty of "self" nature,  my gaze panoramic and mind quiet. 

 

Thank you for your candidness and for sharing your practice.

 

Bows.

[stirling]

 

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

much in the way of abstractions and foreign jargon which is hard to fathom for those not part of a particular group,  along with contests to see who is best at juggling such things...so it goes with most religions or ways.

 

I am all for simplification. I honestly think that all that is really needed for realization, regardless of tradition, is:

 

1. Pointing out instruction by a realized teacher (showing a student the non-dual nature of reality directly)

 

2. Ongoing reduction of obscurations/hinderances (having a teacher work with the student to help them see where they limit their understanding)

 

3. A meditation practice where the student rests in the pointed out non-dual realization in objectless shamatha with vipassana where all technique is dropped and there is just pure presence, i.e. open awareness/Dzogchen/shikantaza meditation. 

[Lairg]

By one account the requirements in this solar system for inner initiation (including first stage enlightenment) are set by our brethren from Sirius.

 

If so, the requirements may be varied for particular individuals.  

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

much in the way of abstractions and foreign jargon which is hard to fathom for those not part of a particular group,  along with contests to see who is best at juggling such things...so it goes with most religions or ways.
 

Sorry, old3bob!  It's just that my legs are so far down there, my arms go in a completely different direction, and my teeth--my teeth aren't touching, most of the time!

I should have just said:

 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought.  For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind.  I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.

At such time as the breath can place awareness anywhere in the consciousness-informed body, the activity of inhalation and exhalation is effortless. 

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I read that passage by Rutschman-Byler, but am not convinced by it. I have read and heard tales of the Hara too, actually from one of Harada's own students, who lives in town here with me. Despite receiving a similar instruction, it was never pushed or mentioned more than once to him, and despite experimentation has not become any kind of important practice. Based on my own experience, I am positive that it is unnecessary for realization. 

 

From the "it's a small world" department, though I haven't heard of him, I can say after looking him up that we actually share lineage through Sojun Mel Weitsman, who my late teacher Jana Drakka had lineage through. Looking at his involvement with Green Gulch and Steve Stucky, I can also say that my teacher most certainly would know him well.  The topic of the "Hara" has never come up, and has never been part of any practice suggestion I have had in any tradition I have worked in. It certainly wasn't part of my formal shikantaza instruction. At its core, shikantaza is formless presence, not attention on any specific place or thing. One excerpt isn't going to sway me there.

 

The purpose can't be thinking these slogans over and over again, surely? Perhaps they are more like intentions? I dunno, I suppose it could be helpful somehow to the right person, but it isn't anything I would suggest to a student.

 

It probably goes without saying that this isn't anything like Zen practice. None of this would apply to the practice of zazen or shikantaza... it is full of "doing". Nothing wrong with it, but the two aren't really compatible. While the result might end up being pretty much the same (though the Tripitaka realization of "no-self" is only a portion of the realization that is "form is emptiness/emptiness is form") the intent of the practices is very different. Missing especially from the former is the assumption in Mahayana that we are all ALREADY enlightened, so it is quite possible to shift to understanding by just recognizing the "natural state", which is the whole purpose of learning to rest in it. My experience with Mahayana is that this is definitely true.

 

Question: What does "thought applied and sustained" mean to you? How does that manifest in your practice.

 

This is the way I practice:

 

I adjust my posture so no muscles are tensed in keeping me upright and straight, and my spine is like a stack of coins. With my eyes closed I take a pass through my body, dropping any muscle tension, usually found in my shoulders. I take a deep breath and relax the mind, letting all thoughts settle out and cease. This might take more than one go. I witness sensation and phenomena arise and cease, unlabeled, unconceptualized and empty of "self" nature,  my gaze panoramic and mind quiet. 

 

Thank you for your candidness and for sharing your practice.

 

Bows.
 

Stirling, thank you for that thoughtful response, and for the details of your practice.  

Regarding the Roshi:

 

“Shikantaza not here,” he insisted in elementary English, pointing to his head. “Not here,” he continued, pointing to his heart. “Only point here!”
 

When koun Franz spoke of "letting the mind move away from the head", he recommended the center of gravity as a place the mind might naturally relocate (he also spoke of the advice he received to open up the gaze to the room, as a way of keeping the mind open).

Gautama's metaphor for the first concentration was:

 

… as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so (one) steeps, drenches, fills and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19)

 

For me it's like falling asleep, but awake to the location of attention in the body in the movement of breath, and allowing that location to shift and move and come into focus as one-pointed.  The whole body enters into the placement of attention in the movement of breath, no hypnic jerking allowed!

Gautama does not say, in the hara.  Omori Sogen quotes Hida Haramitsu, who says:

 

The strength of the hara alone is insufficient, the strength of the koshi alone is not sufficient, either.  We should balance the power of the hara and the koshi (area behind the pelvis) and maintain equilibrium of the seated body by bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body.

 

(“Nikon no Shimei” [“Mission of Japan”], Hida Haramitsu, parenthetical added)

 

I think that's a good recipe for what Feldenkrais called "automatic activity", but in this case automatic activity of the entire body in the movement of inhalation and exhalation.  That, even if "the center of the triangular base of the seated body" is unspecified (perhaps just slightly forward of the resting center of gravity?).

Gautama's "way of life" says that a return to that automatic activity, to the experience of that conscious but volitionless activity in the movement of breath, is a part of the rhythm of living.  Having experienced such in seated meditation, he said, the experience can be called up as necessary in daily living by the recollection of the state of the body in the experience (by the survey-sign of the concentration). 

 

What Woodward translated as "the contemplation of cessation" in inhalation and exhalation, the fifteenth element of Gautama's "intent concentration on inhalation and exhalation", Horner translated as "the observation of stopping", during an inhalation or an exhalation.  

Happens.





 

 

 

 

[stirling]

13 hours ago, Lairg said:

By one account the requirements in this solar system for inner initiation (including first stage enlightenment) are set by our brethren from Sirius.

 

If so, the requirements may be varied for particular individuals.  

 

I am always interested in conceptual maps of enlightenment. What are the stages of enlightenment in this case, and where does this system hail from?

 

My experience is that once the non-dual nature of reality of seen into, the reality of anything like initiations, brethren, Sirius, requirement and especially individuals is only dreamlike... not anything truly real, empty of intrinsic reality.

[stirling]

10 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Stirling, thank you for that thoughtful response, and for the details of your practice.

 

Bows.

 

Quote

When koun Franz spoke of "letting the mind move away from the head", he recommended the center of gravity as a place the mind might naturally relocate (he also spoke of the advice he received to open up the gaze to the room, as a way of keeping the mind open).

 

Opening up the gaze to the room is splendid advice, and a variation on "shikantaza" in practice, since it takes in the whole of the field. 

 

Ultimately in such practices we can come to see that "Mind" is everywhere and "mind"(sense door) is nowhere.

 

Quote

Gautama's metaphor for the first concentration was:

 

… as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so (one) steeps, drenches, fills and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19)

 

This is jhana instruction, first jhana specifically. I don't know if you have worked with the jhanas or know about them, but they are "states" analogous to enlightened mind in various forms. Perhaps we talked about them before? Some believe they can be helpful in learning to recognize insight when it happens. They are challenging. 

 

I never mastered them before insight, but now see how they could have been helpful perhaps. I don't think they are necessary by any means. 

 

Recommended reading on the topic (which I have probably shared before as well:

 

http://rc.leighb.com/index.html

 

Quote

For me it's like falling asleep, but awake to the location of attention in the body in the movement of breath, and allowing that location to shift and move and come into focus as one-pointed.  The whole body enters into the placement of attention in the movement of breath, no hypnic jerking allowed!

 

The first few jhanas are about working with piti and sukkha as a way in, but eventually in the later jhanas there is just resting in various degrees of formlessness, which is also a feature shikantaza. 

 

Quote

I think that's a good recipe for what Feldenkrais called "automatic activity", but in this case automatic activity of the entire body in the movement of inhalation and exhalation.  That, even if "the center of the triangular base of the seated body" is unspecified (perhaps just slightly forward of the resting center of gravity?).

 

Ultimately, in my experience, the important activity to drop to witness the non-doer/agencyless perspective is getting the mind quiet enough by dropping illusory "processes" and to notice that "self" has dropped away. 

 

Quote

Gautama's "way of life" says that a return to that automatic activity, to the experience of that conscious but volitionless activity in the movement of breath, is a part of the rhythm of living.  Having experienced such in seated meditation, he said, the experience can be called up as necessary in daily living by the recollection of the state of the body in the experience (by the survey-sign of the concentration). 

 

Being able to call up "no-self" in daily life is the work, for sure, in all experiences. I have found that just learning to recognize it and having the intention to be present with that realization makes it happen more and more.

[old3bob]

so in the Alan Watts video he makes things sound so simple,   go swimming or dancing and just enjoy life in the moment....be happy don't worry etc.. but to me there is a catch since that only applies to and  works for innocent children who are under 100% protection with everything they could possibly need supplied to them and thus nothing else  to do or be concerned about because  they have the endless luxuries like going swimming,  dancing or whatever...such may be so in a some realm but it is not so in this world for living beings in flesh and blood bodies to deal with.  There is that saying, "be in the world but not of it" which sounds noble and nice but if that is case then why even be here in the first place, is it  just to enjoy the ride yet not pay for it according to some?

Edited July 13, 2023 by old3bob

[Shadow_self]

32 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Bows.

 

 

Opening up the gaze to the room is splendid advice, and a variation on "shikantaza" in practice, since it takes in the whole of the field. 

 

Ultimately in such practices we can come to see that "Mind" is everywhere and "mind"(sense door) is nowhere.

 

 

This is jhana instruction, first jhana specifically. I don't know if you have worked with the jhanas or know about them, but they are "states" analogous to enlightened mind in various forms. Perhaps we talked about them before? Some believe they can be helpful in learning to recognize insight when it happens. They are challenging. 

 

I never mastered them before insight, but now see how they could have been helpful perhaps. I don't think they are necessary by any means. 

 

Recommended reading on the topic (which I have probably shared before as well:

 

http://rc.leighb.com/index.html

 

 

The first few jhanas are about working with piti and sukkha as a way in, but eventually in the later jhanas there is just resting in various degrees of formlessness, which is also a feature shikantaza. 

 

 

Ultimately, in my experience, the important activity to drop to witness the non-doer/agencyless perspective is getting the mind quiet enough by dropping illusory "processes" and to notice that "self" has dropped away. 

 

 

Being able to call up "no-self" in daily life is the work, for sure, in all experiences. I have found that just learning to recognize it and having the intention to be present with that realization makes it happen more and more.

 

Necessary for what exactly?

 

My understanding would be vipsassana without jhana is not very useful, and to enter jhana and stabilize it takes a long time away from society.

[old3bob]

22 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

You can make it as easy or as complicated as you like.  

 

 

 

you mean we don't have to be thousand trick ponies to cover all the ground? 

Edited July 13, 2023 by old3bob

[stirling]

52 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Necessary for what exactly?

 

My understanding would be vipsassana without jhana is not very useful, and to enter jhana and stabilize it takes a long time away from society.

 

I don't believe they are necessary for insight. The reason for this is that there are plenty of students who have realization in any number of traditions without jhana training. 

 

Vipassana is a quality of meditation available in myriad different traditions and in many different techniques.

 

Success with the first few jhanas isn't that difficult, in my experience. The formless jhanas take more work and pointing to.

 

 Anyone interested in jhana would do well to take a course with Leigh Brassington, or find an experienced teacher to work with them, perhaps in concert with his text:

 

http://rc.leighb.com/index.html

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

so in the Alan Watts video he makes things sound so simple,   go swimming or dancing and just enjoy life in the moment....be happy don't worry etc.. but to me there is a catch since that only applies to and  works for innocent children who are under 100% protection with everything they could possibly need supplied to them and thus nothing else  to do or be concerned about because  they have the endless luxuries like going swimming,  dancing or whatever...such may be so in a some realm but it is not so in this world for living beings in flesh and blood bodies to deal with.  There is that saying, "be in the world but not of it" which sounds noble and nice but if that is case then why even be here in the first place, is it  just to enjoy the ride yet not pay for it according to some?

 

Watts is talking about the perspective from enlightened mind. The "catch" is that you have to realize how the world really is. How would this be different from realization of the "Self"? It ISN'T. It's all over your Upanishads as well. Are the Upanishads making it seem too simple? 

 

This first one is EXACTLY on topic.

 

Quote

“Two birds of beautiful plumage, who are inseparable friends, reside on the self-same tree. Of these, one eats the fruits of the tree with relish while the other looks on without eating. 

 

Sitting on the same tree the individual soul gets entangled and feels miserable, being deluded on account of his forgetting his divine nature. 

 

When he sees the other, the Lord of all, whom all devotees worship, and realizes that all greatness is His, then he is relieved of his misery.” 

– Shvetashvatara Upanishad

 

 

 

Quote

“It is indeed the mind that is the cause of men’s bondage and liberation. The mind that is attached to sense-objects leads to bondage, while dissociated from sense-objects it tends to lead to liberation.” 

– Amritabindu Upanishad

 

Quote

 

“Mind alone is the samsara, man should strive to purify his thoughts, what a man thinks that he becomes, this is the eternal mystery.”

– Maitri Upanishad

 

 

 

Quote

 

“There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind.  It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one’s mind and one’s subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else.” - Maitri Upanishad

 

 

 

Quote

“Becoming one with Brahman, the Supreme Self, is the aim of life. Knowledge of Brahman alone is the means for attaining this end. It cannot be attained by rituals.” 

– Taittiriya Upanishad

 

These are all accurate! They are full of simple practices which point straight at the heart of the matter. 

[old3bob]

 

I don't think Watts was talking from the perspective of  "enlightened mind",  indications are he was speaking more about simple bodily instincts and the related pleasures of enjoying the energetic elements in the moment without a lot mental baggage like in the innocence of a child...which is fine but that is not the same as the attainment of a Jnani.  Btw a great Jnani has reclaimed an innocence which is far beyond that of a child's being it could be said they are,  "wise as serpents and innocent as doves" to borrow part of a saying from  Matt 10:16.

 

I'd say the Self does not abide in the mind per-se. although mind must be still to not cloud it over.

[dwai]

4 things are required for “realization”.

0. sincerity of purpose 

1. Focused mind 

2. purified mind

3. someone showing the way to do Self-inquiry.

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

I don't believe they are necessary for insight.

 

I am not persoanlly convinced of that. I have a very different understanding of things, which I will use quotes already on this forum from a friend below to illustrate (meaning I dont need to say anything that has not already been said) 

 

Perhaps we can, define insight. I say that because we may not be talking about the same things

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

The reason for this is that there are plenty of students who have realization in any number of traditions without jhana training. 

 

Realization of what however?

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Vipassana is a quality of meditation available in myriad different traditions and in many different techniques.

 

Of course, but what are we actually trying to do here with the Vipassana?

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Success with the first few jhanas isn't that difficult, in my experience. The formless jhanas take more work and pointing to.

 

First few?

 

If true, that is an impressive feat indeed ( I mean that non sarcasitically I promise).

 

But again, how are we defining jhana here?

 

any of this sound familiar?

 

 

Quote

I know a lot of people think they've achieved Jhanna... but let's just say that maybe they've been misled on what Jhanna really is... For example as you enter and stabilise the 1st Jhanna, you can discern the full cause and effect chain on any body or mind you choose to focus on... that sounds abstract... as an example the whole of Chinese Medicine and it's understandings of cause and effect came from insight at the level of 1st Jhanna... If you enter 1st Jhanna at the moments before death your body will not rot. After death in 1st Jhanna, you're able to choose when and as whom you are reborn...

 

To even get a chance at entering 1st Jhanna you first must be able to enter and stay in samadhi for several days straight... That in itself is a superhuman ability... Imagine the most intense mental focus - like attempting to solve the hardest puzzle you've ever solved - and keeping that level of focus completely steady and unwavering for 72hrs - and not straining, pushing or using any effort to do so.

 

To be able to do that you need to have a lot of energy. Your channels must be clear. Your Shen must be bright as the sun. Your body must be strong and resilient. and that's all achieved by the bottom-up method.

 

I realise I've been using buddhist terminology - because actually at the higher stages it's easier to communicate, but this is certainly the case with the Daoist approach too - just substitute Jhanna with Shen Ming, and samadhi with Xin Zhai etc. In fact I believe that the Daoist approach overall in the preparatory stage is very much superior to the Buddhist appraoch. Once you get to the higher stages though, things are less differentiated.

 

The reason I quote this is that I have been given a somewhat similar description of Jhana. Heres a little bit more on Shen ming

 

 

Quote

Chanting Om correctly will bring Yin an Yang together and produce light over time.

 

If someone says they saw light - this usually means they saw Qi generate Shen.
 

If they say they saw God or simply can’t speak or describe what they saw - then they probably saw Shen Ming.

 

While seeing light with eyes closed is a strange experience - experiencing Shen Ming is on a whole different level. In this case you’re going through the Xuan Men (mysterious gate) and seeing the light of your primordial spirit.

 

Seeing the ‘manifest’ light is different to seeing the ‘primordial’ light… but usually you’d see the manifest light for a time before the primordial one comes through.

 

  On 27/09/2021 at 1:07 AM, Creation said:

In every source I've seen heretofore, jhana (or it's equivalents dhyana and chan) refers to the state rather than the result of staying in the state, this might be confusing to people you interact with. 

I was clumsy with words  

 

A teacher will confirm that you have achieved say the 1st Jhanna - not when you’ve experienced the state, but when you’ve stabilised it and can enter it reasonably predictably.

 

First experiencing it and ‘achieving’ it  can be many years apart. (Or can even never happen.)

 

For many of the pure Jhanna-based systems (which is not my main lineage) Jhanna is used as a preparation for death. The idea is to enter Jhanna at the moment of death - and this will impact the process of transmigration. 
 

If you can’t enter Jhanna predictably you can’t use it in this way - as far as I understand it, that’s why ‘achieving’ it is emphasised.

 

This also brings up questions (it did for me)… what if you die suddenly from an accident!? My understanding is that then you’re out of luck… which explains the need for monastic life which makes accidental death a little less likely.

 

Daoism is a little different in that (apologies for completely mixing very different traditions and mental models) - in that it builds what you might call a ‘Jhannic body’… you effectively create form out of the formless on a higher level of existence. A form that is as ‘real’ (and energetically ‘dense’) as your physical body.

 

When death comes, your consciousness is automatically pulled to the higher state - in the way that gravity pulls an apple to the ground. And this is how transmigration is affected.

 

I bring this up because, as far as I have been taught (not Daoist stuff)

 

The pre-requisite for Vipassana to actually do its job  (as outlined below) is to experience and begin to stabilize Jhana.

 

But enough about that...this is why  I disagree about the relationship between Vipassana and Jhana

 

 

Quote

No - not in itself. But it builds capacity to be able to do it, if that makes sense. 

 

In Buddhist practice it’s often done in Vipassana practice - which is like using insight to clear karma... samadhi or any depth of concentration increases your ability to do that.

 

In Daoist practice Karma is cleared through a number of practices like ‘burning the channels’ which is an alchemical approach.

 

The Daoist approach is less of a ‘facing’ your karma - it just gets ‘burned’ away.

 

Vipassana involves facing the internal root of the karma while remaining completely equanimous - and cutting through it with the sharp knife of ‘insight’.

 

So the earliest stages of even coming close to Jhana requires disengagement from sensory conciousness

 

As you can imagine, disengagement from sensory conciousness = a similar experience to the death process

 

Daoists would label this akin to "turning the light around" 

 

The approach I take is a rather odd one, from a not so well known practice that works with nimitta in various ways to bring about transformation.

 

Curious stuff, beyong the scope of this really. Another thread, another time perhaps   

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 Anyone interested in jhana would do well to take a course with Leigh Brassington, or find an experienced teacher to work with them, perhaps in concert with his text:

http://rc.leighb.com/index.html

 

Id personally take Beth Upton on Jhana rather than Leigh to be honest.

 

Though again, what Ive been told has some deviations from what she says (again though i do imagine her approach is simplified for the public...we share a very strong focus on the Abhidhamma) .

 

I'm not exactly aligned with Pau Auk or anything, ill just take truth wherever I can get it, and she speaks clearly on many topics.

 

Though we still do have some variations, I see far more merit in what she gives out

 

 

[Lairg]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

What are the stages of enlightenment in this case, and where does this system hail from?

 

My experience is that once the non-dual nature of reality of seen into, the reality of anything like initiations, brethren, Sirius, requirement and especially individuals is only dreamlike... not anything truly real, empty of intrinsic reality.

 

The nature of enlightenment is that the Light flows easily into the human.  The three stages that are still called human are:

 

- control of the higher mental body so that the soul (solar/guardian angel) is no longer required as an intermediary with the spirit entity that is the real human

- control of the heart energy body so that cosmic relationships can become functional
- control of the atmic/will body so that cosmic thought can become functional

 

A Treatise on Cosmic Fire is worth reading every few years

 

https://www.theosophy.world/sites/default/files/ebooks/alice-a-bailey-a-treatise-on-cosmic-fire.pdf 

 

More recently there is Occult Cosmology

 

https://issuu.com/maxvietri/docs/occult-cosmology

 

 

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Daoists would label this akin to "turning the light around" 

 

 

Dogen, in his "Koroku Fukan zazen gi":

 

Therefore, stop the intellectual practice of investigating words and chasing after talk; study the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

 

("Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation", Carl Bielefeldt, p 176)

 

 

I think he's talking about looking at awareness itself, rather than the object of awareness. 

People have a sense of where their awareness is in their body--usually behind the eyes, with the thinking mind.  The eyes have a tight connection with the vestibular organs, the organs that provide equalibrium and that play a major role in the sense of self location (the otoliths and proprioceptors are the other organs involved).  In my experience, the location of awareness can shift, and the object of turning the light and shining it back is to perceive awareness as a one-pointed location that can shift.  

Cheng Man Ch'ing spoke of the virtue of keeping the ch'i and the mind together at the dan t'ien, and of "transforming ching to ch'i and cultivating the ch'i to enrich the brain".  He also said, "there is further cultivation of the ch'i to transform it into spirit and of the spirit to return to emptiness" (“Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, trans. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, p 29).

In his instruction, Cheng  Man Ch'ing offered up three levels in the development of ch'i, each with three stages.  The final level concerns “chin”--according to the classics, “chin comes from the ligaments”: 
 

“t’ing chin, listening to or feeling strength”; “comprehension of chin”; “omnipotence”. 

 

(ibid, p 77-78)

 

Another translator rendered the last stage above as “perfect clarity” (“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, Douglas Wile, p 57). In my estimation, “perfect clarity” is “the pureness of (one’s) mind” that Gautama associated with “the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) in-breathing and out-breathing” in the fourth jhana.

For me, it's like this:

 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought.  For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind.  I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.
 

 

Quote

 

Id personally take Beth Upton on Jhana rather than Leigh to be honest.

 

Though again, what Ive been told has some deviations from what she says (again though i do imagine her approach is simplified for the public...we share a very strong focus on the Abhidhamma) .

 

I'm not exactly aligned with Pau Auk or anything, ill just take truth wherever I can get it, and she speaks clearly on many topics.

 

Though we still do have some variations, I see far more merit in what she gives out

 

 

My practice, above, is actually just the actionable elements in the "(mind-)development that is mindfulness of inhalation and exhalation" that Gautama referred to as his way of living (also translated "the concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing").  Thought applied and sustained in service of the experience of the placement of attention by the movement of breath, a placement that draws feeling from throughout the body.

When once activity in the area behind the pelvis begins to balance activity in the hara, thought applied and sustained quiets, as the generation of automatic activity through the experience of "one-pointedness" begins to emerge.  

At such time as the breath can place awareness anywhere in the consciousness-informed body, the activity of inhalation and exhalation is effortless. That would be the fourth jhana, followed by the survey-sign of the concentration.  The survey-sign or sign of the concentration is an overview of the body that provides the ability to resume the state in which awareness is placed anywhere by the breath, as necessary.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Shadow_self]

41 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I think he's talking about looking at awareness itself, rather than the object of awareness. 

 

 

Turning the light around is when conciousness folds in on itself.

 

Its not so much as "you" looking at awareness, as "awareness" looking at itself

 

It happens at the point of death, or when one can remove themselves from senses  properly (not as simple as people think)

 

This is one passing through the "gateway of heaven" so to speak

 

Karma starts to do its thing, and here in the midst of this place is where the opportunity occurs

 

Theres a mechanism here I cannot really openly discuss, but suffice to say, it is no accident that you hear of people coming back from NDE's with siddhi's abilities and profound levels of understanding that escape most people

 

[Mark Foote]

35 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

Turning the light around is when conciousness folds in on itself.

 

Its not so much as "you" looking at awareness, as "awareness" looking at itself

 

It happens at the point of death, or when one can remove themselves from senses  properly (not as simple as people think)

 

This is one passing through the "gateway of heaven" so to speak

 

Karma starts to do its thing, and here in the midst of this place is where the opportunity occurs

 

Theres a mechanism here I cannot really openly discuss, but suffice to say, it is no accident that you hear of people coming back from NDE's with siddhi's abilities and profound levels of understanding that escape most people

 

 

I won't disagree about "awareness" looking at itself.  I'm only saying, when I do that, what I see is a location in space.  In the body, hopefully, but a location, and one that shifts and moves.

Normally consciousness relies on all the bodily elements as its basis. During the death process, however, the elements as bases progressively fail and consciousness relies on less and less of them. This is what experiences the Clear Light of death and passes into the in-between or “bardo” state and on into your next rebirth. Thus meditation on the mind with no object is similar to the tantric ones of taking the Dharmakaya as a pathway for death, in which you simulate in meditation the dissolution process of death and focus finally on the space-like mind itself in the Dharmakaya Clear Light experience.

Meditation on no object should not be confused with blank-mindedness in which you are completely dull as if in a stupor or a faint. It is extremely alert, mindful and clear, but as in the Clear Light death meditations, without any object or thoughts.

 

(“The Mahamudra:  Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance”, Wang Chug Dor-je, Alexander Berzin, Beru Khyentze Rinpoche; p. 51-52; commentary by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche)

 

 

In the dissolution process of the bodily elements as outlined previously, consciousness progressively relies on less elements [dissolution of the elements and three subsequent stages of creative energies are described].  After this comes the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations. 

 

(Ibid, p. 142, emphasis added)

 

 

Not the Wind, Not the Flag
 

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: “The flag is moving.”
 

The other said: “The wind is moving.”
 

The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: “Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving.”

 

(The Gateless Gate, by Ekai (called Mu-mon), tr. Nyogen Senzaki and Paul Reps [1934])
 

 

From my own essay, "Waking Up and Falling Asleep":

 

... the practice is the same, whether I am waking up or falling asleep: when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate.

(that's here)

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

IPerhaps we can, define insight. I say that because we may not be talking about the same things

 

Allow me to share a bit about my background: I am a Soto Zen teacher in the Shunryu Suzuki lineage, this for the last 8 years. Both of my teachers have been transmitted. Before that I worked in the Tibetan Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition for 25 years with a number of realized teachers.

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Realization of what however?

 

The only realization that matters in the Mahayana tradition (and in my opinion) is insight into Sunyata, which encompasses both "no-self", and more wholly, "emptiness".

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Of course, but what are we actually trying to do here with the Vipassana?

 

In my work we are using the combination of Vipassana and Shamatha to see through the delusion of intrinsic existence. 

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

First few?

 

Yes. Somewhere past 6th jhana or so into the formless realms. I stopped eventually, as it isn't insight into actual things, but rather into states that resemble insight. I did this all backwards (like everything I do in my life) having had insight first, then learning the jhanas out of curiosity to see how attainable they were. Keep in mind that the jhanas are not typically an object of study in many of the Tibetan schools (for this reason above). They are considered counter-productive.

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

If true, that is an impressive feat indeed ( I mean that non sarcasitically I promise).

 

That is kind of you to say, but I have met any number of people/teachers who have deeper experience with jhanas than I do. I am by no means a natural, or a great meditator, I just had a distinct advantage before I began. 

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

But again, how are we defining jhana here?

 

I'm fine with this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana_in_Buddhism#The_jhāna/dhyana-stages

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

any of this sound familiar?

 

It honestly doesn't. It isn't anything like what I have learned first hand or read in the traditions I have worked in.  It sounds like cultivation-type activity which is entirely at odds with my practice history and outside of my experience.

 

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The pre-requisite for Vipassana to actually do its job  (as outlined below) is to experience and begin to stabilize Jhana.

 

Maybe you mean shamatha? You need both for jhana. 

 

The practice of Dzogchen in Tibetan Buddhism (and shikantaza in Soto Zen) IS both shamatha and vipassana. It is meditating and taking in the entire dharma field moment-to-moment. Doing so breaks down time, space, and self, giving the practitioner a first hand view into the construction of reality AND non-duality. 

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

So the earliest stages of even coming close to Jhana requires disengagement from sensory conciousness

 

As you can imagine, disengagement from sensory conciousness = a similar experience to the death process

 

In my experience the earliest stages are all body-bound. They are initially about inclining toward,  first,  bliss in the body, then bliss in the mind then having those drop out, moving further and further toward the sense doors dropping out. It is from 5 on that are the "arupa" (formless, or "no body") that are where consciousness of body and outside world drops away. It isn't like the death process in my experience... not that I remember dying ever. It isn't really like.... anything. The point of it being formless and "empty" is that conceptual designations or consciousness of any separateness become finer and finer and drop away.

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Daoists would label this akin to "turning the light around" 

 

I'll have to take your word for it.  Awareness of awareness is the what Dzogchen and shikantaza are about. I imagine this is what you are getting at. 

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Curious stuff, beyond the scope of this really. Another thread, another time perhaps   

 

Yeah, absolutely! Part of what makes this all so fascinating is the psychonautic aspect of the practice and what we discover about reality as we go along. Love that stuff. It only gets weirder and weirder.

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I'd personally take Beth Upton on Jhana rather than Leigh to be honest.

 

Though again, what Ive been told has some deviations from what she says (again though i do imagine her approach is simplified for the public...we share a very strong focus on the Abhidhamma) .

 

I like Brassington because of the clean simplicity of his instruction. I haven't seen instruction from Beth Upton, but if I ever take up looking at the jhanas again I'll check her out. 

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I'm not exactly aligned with Pau Auk or anything, ill just take truth wherever I can get it, and she speaks clearly on many topics.

 

Though we still do have some variations, I see far more merit in what she gives out

 

Cool. I confess I started and have stayed in the Mahayana, so I don't know much about Pau Auk, though I have read some of the more well-known Tripitaka canon here and there, mostly where there is talk of "no-self" or "emptiness. 

 

Thanks for chiming in! 

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

The nature of enlightenment is that the Light flows easily into the human.  The three stages that are still called human are:

 

- control of the higher mental body so that the soul (solar/guardian angel) is no longer required as an intermediary with the spirit entity that is the real human

- control of the heart energy body so that cosmic relationships can become functional
- control of the atmic/will body so that cosmic thought can become functional

 

A Treatise on Cosmic Fire is worth reading every few years

 

https://www.theosophy.world/sites/default/files/ebooks/alice-a-bailey-a-treatise-on-cosmic-fire.pdf 

 

More recently there is Occult Cosmology

 

https://issuu.com/maxvietri/docs/occult-cosmology

 

Would it be correct to say this level:

 

Quote

 

I. There is one Boundless Immutable Principle; one Absolute Reality which, antecedes all manifested conditioned Being. It is beyond the range and reach of any human thought or expression.

The manifested Universe is contained within this Absolute Reality and is a conditioned symbol of it. In the totality of this manifested Universe, three aspects are to be conceived.

 

 

Is the deepest reality?

 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I won't disagree about "awareness" looking at itself.  I'm only saying, when I do that, what I see is a location in space.  In the body, hopefully, but a location, and one that shifts and moves.

 

You remind me of philosopher Riccardo Manzotti. There are nice pointers in his work. 

 

 

 

His premise is that the "I" is where awareness is. I only differ from him in that I would say it is EVERYWHERE. We can discover this put meditating in such a way that we take in the whole of experience. Why be hopeful about awareness appearing in the body?

 

 

Quote

Normally consciousness relies on all the bodily elements as its basis. During the death process, however, the elements as bases progressively fail and consciousness relies on less and less of them. This is what experiences the Clear Light of death and passes into the in-between or “bardo” state and on into your next rebirth. Thus meditation on the mind with no object is similar to the tantric ones of taking the Dharmakaya as a pathway for death, in which you simulate in meditation the dissolution process of death and focus finally on the space-like mind itself in the Dharmakaya Clear Light experience.

Meditation on no object should not be confused with blank-mindedness in which you are completely dull as if in a stupor or a faint. It is extremely alert, mindful and clear, but as in the Clear Light death meditations, without any object or thoughts.

 

(“The Mahamudra:  Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance”, Wang Chug Dor-je, Alexander Berzin, Beru Khyentze Rinpoche; p. 51-52; commentary by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche)

 

A beautiful quote. Blindingly excellent stuff. This can be done BEFORE death too! Why not kill ones "self" before death and live a little?

 

 

Quote

In the dissolution process of the bodily elements as outlined previously, consciousness progressively relies on less elements [dissolution of the elements and three subsequent stages of creative energies are described].  After this comes the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations. 

 

(Ibid, p. 142, emphasis added)

 

See above!

 

 

Quote

Not the Wind, Not the Flag
 

Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: “The flag is moving.”
 

The other said: “The wind is moving.”
 

The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: “Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving.”

 

(The Gateless Gate, by Ekai (called Mu-mon), tr. Nyogen Senzaki and Paul Reps [1934])

 

Bodhi svaha!

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by stirling

[stirling]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

I don't think Watts was talking from the perspective of  "enlightened mind",  indications are he was speaking more about simple bodily instincts and the related pleasures of enjoying the energetic elements in the moment without a lot mental baggage like in the innocence of a child...which is fine but that is not the same as the attainment of a Jnani.  Btw a great Jnani has reclaimed an innocence which is far beyond that of a child's being it could be said they are,  "wise as serpents and innocent as doves" to borrow part of a saying from  Matt 10:16.

 

My bold: There is a lot there that is very much like enlightenment, if we add insight to that list. 

 

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'd say the Self does not abide in the mind per-se. although mind must be still to not cloud it over.

 

IMHO, "self", "Self", "mind", and "Mind" are all delusions ultimately. 

[Lairg]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Dogen, in his "Koroku Fukan zazen gi":

 

...study the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

 

I usually show those interested how to push light out of the heart into most situations of congested energy and relationships

 

The light in the heart is usually the most pure light in a standard human