Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[Lairg]

When a human is enlightened, does it do anything?

 

[C T]

The 'tantric work' in Nyingma encompass all aspects of the bodymind. Highly integral, with heavy emphasis on embodiment and the gradual manifestation of actual qualities of enlightenment, as exemplified by one's personal yidam(s). 

 

It is both physical and contemplative, simultaneously, when one fully grasps the meaning of the union of method and wisdom. 

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I honestly didn't know you had some much resentment and vitriol piled up at me. I'm sorry if I have somehow slighted or insulted you in some way.

 

Honestly, I am here to make friends. My intention isn't to brag, it is to be helpful. I'm sorry that hasn't come across.

 

I did do a stint in tech and met any number of Hindus of different levels of philosophical knowledge and got a real feel for what the non-dual aspects mean and how they relate to Buddhism. I was surprised to find myself accepted... the Buddha being just another avatar, I guess. 

 

Despite my Zen priesthood I am still a HUGE fan of Tibetan Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, The Upanishads, Taoism, and even chaos magic and Crowley Thelema and more. My intention isn't to convert anybody, but point to the fact that so many traditions come from a single simple origin. I realize this idea doesn't resonate with you. You are convinced that these are different understandings. I get it. Feel free to put me on your ignore list. I would understand. Either way, I'll try to be more sensitive to your feelings on the matter in the future. 

 

no need to continue making  this or that nagging projection or assumption on what I'm convinced about etc.  or to apologize for this or that about same?   I try not to make myself too comfortable by pigeon holing this or that way as you are apparently compelled to do?

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, C T said:

The 'tantric work' in Nyingma encompass all aspects of the bodymind.

 

Is body-mind a male approach?

 

What about emotions-heart?  Perhaps females find that appealing

 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

When a human is enlightened, does it do anything?

 

 

some say it "chops wood and carries water"...

Edited July 17, 2023 by old3bob

[Lairg]

So the enlightened human is pretty useless except for menial work?

 

That might not be an efficient use of resources

 

 

[old3bob]

7 minutes ago, Lairg said:

So the enlightened human is pretty useless except for menial work?

 

That might not be an efficient use of resources

 

 

suggest study, you missed it...

[Lairg]

What are the designed capabilities of an enlightened human?

 

What tasks might be allocated?

 

 

[old3bob]

16 minutes ago, Lairg said:

What are the designed capabilities of an enlightened human?

 

What tasks might be allocated?

 

 

not fishing trips...

 

[Lairg]

So what are the designed capabilities of an enlightened human?

 

 

 

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

... body-mind ... approach?

 

Body-body ... approach? The brain is part of the body. 

[C T]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Is body-mind a male approach?

 

What about emotions-heart?  Perhaps females find that appealing

 

 

Didn't expect the assumption emotions-heart are somehow independent of the bodymind. Could you have misunderstood the term in some way?

[stirling]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

no need to continue making  this or that nagging projection or assumption on what I'm convinced about etc.  or to apologize for this or that about same?   I try not to make myself too comfortable by pigeon holing this or that way as you are apparently compelled to do?

 

I'm fine with that. Shall we both stop the pigeonholing?

[stirling]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

So what are the designed capabilities of an enlightened human?

 

An "enlightened" human is simply a person with something less than the others. They have seen through the illusion of being a separate self in a universe of things with their own existence, and no longer construct a fictional reality from that delusion. 

[old3bob]

6 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I'm fine with that. Shall we both stop the pigeonholing?

 

I'm fine with that also...

[stirling]

On 7/13/2023 at 2:44 PM, Lairg said:

The nature of enlightenment is that the Light flows easily into the human.  The three stages that are still called human are:

 

- control of the higher mental body so that the soul (solar/guardian angel) is no longer required as an intermediary with the spirit entity that is the real human

- control of the heart energy body so that cosmic relationships can become functional
- control of the atmic/will body so that cosmic thought can become functional

 

A Treatise on Cosmic Fire is worth reading every few years

 

https://www.theosophy.world/sites/default/files/ebooks/alice-a-bailey-a-treatise-on-cosmic-fire.pdf 

 

More recently there is Occult Cosmology

 

https://issuu.com/maxvietri/docs/occult-cosmology

 

Would it be correct to say this level:

 

 

Quote

I. There is one Boundless Immutable Principle; one Absolute Reality which, antecedes all manifested conditioned Being. It is beyond the range and reach of any human thought or expression.

The manifested Universe is contained within this Absolute Reality and is a conditioned symbol of it. In the totality of this manifested Universe, three aspects are to be conceived.

 

Is the deepest reality? This is from the Alice Bailey piece you linked above.

 

-

 

Sorry to resurrect this, but I think it could answer a lot of the questions you are asking about "enlightened beings".

[Apech]

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

So what are the designed capabilities of an enlightened human?

 

 

 

One is wisdom - which means the ability to see through illusion and distinguish what is true and what is not.  Another is to act in a way which does not generate karma because it is selfless.

 

 

[Apech]

57 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

 

Would it be correct to say this level:

 

 

 

Is the deepest reality? This is from the Alice Bailey piece you linked above.

 

-

 

Sorry to resurrect this, but I think it could answer a lot of the questions you are asking about "enlightened beings".

one often reads of the need to control but this is never explained - how for instance you control your heart and so on - it’s an unfortunate word - or perhaps inadequate.

[old3bob]

non-dualism can not contain any separate illusions...

[Mark Foote]

On 7/15/2023 at 10:13 PM, Lairg said:

 

I have a stuffed toy that looks like a black cat but has round ears - probably a panther

 

The adult owner was moving south and knew that the panther did not want to go.   So I have the panther now - sitting on top of a speaker box right next to me as I type.

 

The panther is very fussy about where it is - and most particular about facing exactly north

 

It pulls on my solar plexus if it is not where it wants to be

 

Another description of the cultivation of ch'i:
 

With this method of circulating ch’i (Tai Chi), it overflows into the sinews, reaches the bone marrow, fills the diaphragm, and manifests in the skin and hair.

(“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, translated by Wile, 1st ed p 17; parenthetical added)

 

Ok, not quite the solar plexus, but close.

My explanation of the above:

 

Here’s the way I understand the four stages: “sinews” are tendons that connect muscle to bone, as opposed to ligaments that connect bone to bone, but the words are used interchangeably in the classics–“overflows into the sinews” describes the effect of singularity in the location of consciousness on the stretch of ligaments; “reaches the bone marrow” captures the role of placement of the bones and gravity in reciprocal activity; “fills the diaphragm” refers to the tight connection between balanced stretch and activity around the abdominal cavity and the free movement of the diaphragm; “manifests in the skin and hair” concerns the arrival of a heightened ability to feel dermatomes, as a consequence of the relaxed nerve exits from the sacrum and spine provided by an even stretch of ligaments

 

She keeps me on my toes:

 

 

[S:C]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

non-dualism can not contain any separate illusions...

strangely, some of us will at times, consciously or not, still reach over for the steering wheel from the passenger seat and switch/be switched between an ultimate and a conventional perspective and/or action, no? or just another illusion/dissociation?
 

Quote

one often reads of the need to control but this is never explained - how for instance you control your heart and so on - it’s an unfortunate word - or perhaps inadequate.

curious… can the heart ever be controlled by willpower in a way that it is not affected by input? can control be implemented before input? @Apech , - does your subjective experience differ? are you talking about controlling actions or really heart/thought itself?
 

hasn’t everything that reaches heart passed senses, minds synapses and nerves also? 

 

conceptual thoughts/feels of wish or woe will pull through the fabric? or not? can awareness or attention training ever help with conventional reality? who really makes the choice to switch and/or control? 
 

Edited July 17, 2023 by stellarwindbubble
distinctions

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

some say it "chops wood and carries water"...

 

 

 

Miraculous power and marvelous activity
Drawing water and chopping wood.

 

(Pangyun, a lay Zen practitioner, eight century C.E.)

 

 

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

 

My explanation, from years past:

 

The breath in emphasizes flexion in the body, as does the action of lifting an object; the breath out emphasizes extension in the body, as does the action of wielding an axe to split a piece of wood.

 

The weight of the entire body can bear at a single point in the movement of inhalation, as though lifting an object; the weight of the entire body can bear at a single point in the movement of exhalation, as though cleaving a block of wood.

 

The weight of the body at a single point generates reciprocal innervation in the muscles of posture, to return a balance in the movement of breath.

 

If the weight of the entire body returns a balance through the movement of a whole inhalation, that’s a miraculous power of the entire universe, as far as I’m concerned; if the weight of the entire body returns a balance through the movement of a whole exhalation, that’s a marvelous activity.

 

 

I'm currently writing about Gautama's advice on  "mindfulness of death".  I think the piece started with a response here, so you may have read the conclusion before:

 

Gautama recommended that his followers “develop mindfulness of death”. He said that those who correctly practice “mindfulness of death” apply his teachings for the interval that it takes to “munch and swallow one morsel”, or for the interval that it takes to “breathe in and out, or out and in” (Maranassati Sutta AN 6.19, Pali Text Society vol III p 218).  The moments that Gautama cites are the moments where the movement of breath may stop momentarily, or seem to stop, and yet "one-pointedness of mind" is presumably still possible. 

 

Moreover, the moments that he pointed to as the moments to practice his teaching (in order to be mindful of death) are precisely the moments crucial to the continuity of “one-pointedness of mind”.
 

 

"one-pointedness of mind" = "the weight of the entire body returns a balance".

I posted the piece.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Mark Foote

[S:C]

4 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

one-pointedness of mind

Could that be equated with mental focus?

[Apech]

36 minutes ago, stellarwindbubble said:

strangely, some of us will at times, consciously or not, still reach over for the steering wheel from the passenger seat and switch/be switched between an ultimate and a conventional perspective and/or action, no? or just another illusion/dissociation?
 

curious… can the heart ever be controlled by willpower in a way that it is not affected by input? can control be implemented before input? @Apech

 

hasn’t everything that reaches heart passed senses, minds synapses and nerves also? 

 

conceptual thoughts/feels of wish or woe will pull through the fabric? or not? can awareness or attention training ever help with conventional reality? who really makes the choice to switch and/or control? 
 

 

What does control mean though?  If I control my mind, then who am I?  

 

It is like when they say 'I will destroy my ego' ... who is this I?

 

 

[S:C]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

What does control mean though?  If I control my mind, then who am I?  

 

It is like when they say 'I will destroy my ego' ... who is this I?

I have no idea. Source of my confusion…

Dementia?

 

💡

 

A split fragment wo wants to keep up the charade?!