Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[Mark Foote]

51 minutes ago, stellarwindbubble said:

Could that be equated with mental focus?
 

Here's my explanation:
 

The practice I have in mind is a practice that everybody is already familiar with, even if they don’t think of it as a practice. What I’m referring to is waking up in the morning, or falling asleep at night; if you’ve ever had a hard time waking up or falling asleep, then you know that there can indeed be a practice! In my experience, the practice is the same, whether I am waking up or falling asleep: when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate.

 

This practice is useful, when I wake up in the middle of the night and need to go back to sleep, or when I want to feel more physically alive in the morning. This practice is also useful when I want to feel my connection to everything around me, because my sense of place registers the contact of my awareness with each thing, as contact occurs.

 

Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move.

 

I sometimes overlook my location in space because I attach to what I’m feeling, or I’m averse to it, or I ignore it. The result is that I lose the freedom of my awareness to shift and move, and I have difficulty relaxing or staying alert. When I allow what I feel to enter into where I am, then my awareness remains free, and I can relax and keep my wits about me.

 

(Waking Up and Falling Asleep)

 

 

Koun Franz is a Zen teacher based in Halifax, Canada.  He's also an editor for "Lion's Roar".  Here's the explanation he gave, in a lecture a while ago:

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. 

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

 

(No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6], Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site)
 

 

Here's the cause-and-effect Gautama saw, in a description he made of the power of concentration, one of five "powers":

 

Making self surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind.

 

Another description I've made:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)

 

 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, stellarwindbubble said:

 

strangely, some of us will at times, consciously or not, still reach over for the steering wheel from the passenger seat and switch/be switched between an ultimate and a conventional perspective and/or action, no? or just another illusion/dissociation?
 

 

 

Though she does not claim to have been abducted by aliens, MacLaine says spaceships have been seen both at her home in Malibu, where she lives on a gated estate, and at her New Mexico ranch. She says one guest witnessed three UFOs overhead while he was relaxing in her hot-tub.

 

But it was her experiences in Peru that really convinced her. In her book Sage-ing While Age-ing, published in 2007, she wrote: ‘I went to Machu Picchu in Peru with a man who said he’d had a love affair with an extraterrestrial.

 

‘He said he was still being guided by her. The Peruvian roads are steep, narrow, and dangerous. He took his hands off the wheel, closed his eyes and the car was “driven”.’

(dailymail)

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

One is wisdom - which means the ability to see through illusion and distinguish what is true and what is not.  Another is to act in a way which does not generate karma because it is selfless.

 

Stirling relates to the former, Mark to the latter... 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Cobie]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Body-body ... approach? The brain is part of the body. 

@Mark Foote why the  ? 
 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Cobie

[Lairg]

8 hours ago, C T said:

Didn't expect the assumption emotions-heart are somehow independent of the bodymind. Could you have misunderstood the term in some way?

 

Just as there are various states of the physical (solids, liquids, gases, plasma, quantum states) so there are different states at a higher level (body, emotions, thoughts, heart, intent, ....)

 

As the human learns to master those (potentially: body by age 7, emotions by age 14, mind by 21,....) by the age of 42, according Jung, a human may be ready for a mission in life.

 

Of course almost all humans take many lives to accumulate such mastery.

 

These levels of existence can be experienced as vibration, and with practice all the senses can be developed on each plane.  Thus the enlightened human is able to see, smell, feel, hear on spiritual levels and thereby act and observe results - eventually becoming competent in the Cosmos

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Lairg

[Lairg]

4 hours ago, stellarwindbubble said:

can the heart ever be controlled by willpower in a way that it is not affected by input?

 

Willpower in common parlance refers to application of lower mental energy while the heart energy is noticeably higher in vibration. 

 

Control of the heart energy commences with intent and later becomes subconscious as the initiate has its consciousness on yet higher planes.

 

The enlightened human progressively extends the frequency range of its competence.

 

Subject to planetary karma and various other conditions, (some) energy-substance on each plane of Existence may be managed (or at least influenced) by the intent of the enlightened human.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Lairg

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Another description of the cultivation of ch'i:
 

With this method of circulating ch’i (Tai Chi), it overflows into the sinews, reaches the bone marrow, fills the diaphragm, and manifests in the skin and hair.

(“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, translated by Wile, 1st ed p 17; parenthetical added)

 

Ok, not quite the solar plexus, but close.

My explanation of the above:

 

Here’s the way I understand the four stages: “sinews” are tendons that connect muscle to bone, as opposed to ligaments that connect bone to bone, but the words are used interchangeably in the classics–“overflows into the sinews” describes the effect of singularity in the location of consciousness on the stretch of ligaments; “reaches the bone marrow” captures the role of placement of the bones and gravity in reciprocal activity; “fills the diaphragm” refers to the tight connection between balanced stretch and activity around the abdominal cavity and the free movement of the diaphragm; “manifests in the skin and hair” concerns the arrival of a heightened ability to feel dermatomes, as a consequence of the relaxed nerve exits from the sacrum and spine provided by an even stretch of ligaments

 

 

 

The image above details the process. You build qi until it reaches a point that it presses its way into the bones. 

 

The stages of the Yijinjing are

 

• Skin Depth
• Sinew Depth
• Channel Depth
• Viscera Depth
• Marrow Depth

This is a nod to the depth that the qi is penetrating

[Shadow_self]

16 hours ago, stirling said:

 

We might have different ideas about what "insight" is. I am speaking specifically about complete insight into Sunyata (emptiness), which changes EVERYTHING. 

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Emptiness

 

Sounds like Wuji  

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

Shamatha and Vipassana arise naturally in Dzogchen practice effortlessly.

 

My knoledge of Dzogchen is limited, but as far as I understood it, it was a series of practices, not just 1 right? 

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

Those "qualities" balance themselves, in my experience. 

 

I would think only in the context of employing the right practices yes  

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

I agree. What you are talking about sounds different.

 

My understanding of the jhanas is that it is possible to follow them through increasingly deeper experiences of emptiness, progressively experiencing the dropping of subtler levels of being. They are ONLY states, but are entirely possible to actually HAVE as ACTUAL experiences and understanding at a MUCH deeper level than any state, in the same way that time/space/self distortion with psychedelics is not the ability to see or understand those experiences after they wear off - but they ARE real understandings.

 

Theres a little bit more on how I understand the jhanas to be here. Theres quite a few good posts on them

 

 

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

This sounds more like end of life Tibetan practices, like Togal, etc. If you are doing jhanas without insight into Sunyata none of that is going to happen in reality, from my understanding. 

Can you have the type of insight we are talking about while being "us"

 

@Creation gave a very good breakdown of the differences between types of insight

 

I do think that insight (type 1) builds as a byproduct of practice. Type 2 if you would...well that requires degrees of removal beyond what Id understand lay practitioners to be able to routinley drop into

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

Weird things might happen during meditation, but what about when you are off the cushion. My experience is that it takes insight into Sunyata to get there. Sounds like we are talking about siddhis now?

 

Just as many unusual things have happened me off the cusion than on it to be honest. In fact the most profound ones came when they were least expected  

 

The example I gave, Im not sure if it is a siddhi so to speak, more like a sign of transformation  

 

I should also state, I find the whole "energy emission" as proof of attainment a useless metric (probably the worst in fact)

 

Not only can it be faked by an external machine. People who have the ability can pump it into folk and they can temporarily do it, or people can artifically charge their lower field using electrictiy. They can also take external pills and whatnot

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Insight into the nature "empty" of reality/Sunyata DOES come with both of those.

Indeed it should, i agree.

 

But for every person that talks the talk, how many walk the walk?

 

My experience has been that only a handful of people

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

Awareness IS the source! The witness observing a separate world is a delusion. There are only subjects... no object. 

 

I probably didnt phrase it well

 

I meant when observation reverses, awareness sees itself unbound by the sense faculties

 

The image above (the moon) is related to that )

 

16 hours ago, stirling said:

Are birth and death real, or are they stories we tell ourselves about experience we haven't actually had?

 

I would say the are periods of transition, A waxing and waning if you would  

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

@Mark Foote why the  ? 
 

Lairg wrote:

 

Is body-mind a male approach?
 

 

You responded:

 

Body-body ... approach? The brain is part of the body. 

 

 

I don't know, struck me as funny at the time.  

Mind-mind approach, that's the one that's got the planet in tears.

 

[Lairg]

1 minute ago, Mark Foote said:

Lairg wrote:

 

Is body-mind a male approach?
 

 

You responded:

 

Body-body ... approach? The brain is part of the body. 

 

 

I don't know, struck me as funny at the time.  

 

As we know from NDEs in operating theaters, when there is no brain activity, the mind can record everything happening, often from up near the ceiling

 

 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

 

The image above details the process. You build qi until it reaches a point that it presses its way into the bones. 

 

The stages of the Yijinjing are

 

• Skin Depth
• Sinew Depth
• Channel Depth
• Viscera Depth
• Marrow Depth

This is a nod to the depth that the qi is penetrating
 

Shadow_self, I'm going with the description from the Tai Chi classics that Cheng Man-Ching quoted in his Thirteen Chapters (Douglas Wile's translation), which I quoted.  That' one corresponds reasonably well with the metaphors Gautama used for the first four jhanas, at least in my interpretation of it (which I also gave).

I don't believe the ch'i penetrates from the outside in.  Nor do I believe that the meaning of "marrow" is literal.

[Mark Foote]

12 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

As we know from NDEs in operating theaters, when there is no brain activity, the mind can record everything happening, often from up near the ceiling

 

 

Turns out that experience can be induced, check out Olaf Blanke's research.  I'm not saying that all OBE's are induced--neither do I think they are all symptoms of disfunction in the coordination of the vestibulars, the otoliths, the proprioceptors, and the eyes (which is something Blanke has explored). 

Blanke is exploring the relationship between the sense of self and the sense of location in space.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Lairg]

15 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I'm not saying that all OBE's are induced-

 

NDEs in an operating theater have the added value of often recording zero brain activity.  This may indicate that the brain is a receiver of mental process but not the process itself.

 

More esoterically: the physical plane is an effect and not a cause

 

 

[Shadow_self]

34 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Shadow_self, I'm going with the description from the Tai Chi classics that Cheng Man-Ching quoted in his Thirteen Chapters (Douglas Wile's translation), which I quoted.  That' one corresponds reasonably well with the metaphors Gautama used for the first four jhanas, at least in my interpretation of it (which I also gave).

I don't believe the ch'i penetrates from the outside in.  Nor do I believe that the meaning of "marrow" is literal.

 

You are free to believe whatever you like. I gain nothing  at all by trying to convince you  

 

Ensuring that others who want to understand the mechanics of how these thiings actually work is my motivation for posting.

 

 I only do that because, many of the contributors to the site have ceased posting...So the place has slowed down

 

Having been shown YJJ principles from several sources, this is actually how it works

 

If "book descriptions" are things you find satisfactory, thats fine  

 

More on peoples practical experiences of "marrow" being literal here. Might be worth having a discussion with a few of Wang Lipings longer term students,

 

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Sounds like Wuji  

 

In terms of the Dao de Jing, it is absolutely the same thing, yes.

 

Quote

My knoledge of Dzogchen is limited, but as far as I understood it, it was a series of practices, not just 1 right? 

 

It is also just resting in the natural state.

 

Quote

I would think only in the context of employing the right practices yes  

 

Sure. Especially if those practices (IMHO) are quite close to no practice at all. 

 

Quote

Theres a little bit more on how I understand the jhanas to be here. Theres quite a few good posts on them

 

 

I'll need a little more time to absorb that, but the idea that somehow Qi is magically built by preliminary practices isn't how it is understood by the traditions I have worked it. I was speaking with my teacher this morning on the matter of the energy center at the  "hara" (or "fu" in Chinese?) and its importance and she said that it is a relative conceptual teaching, not needed for shikantaza or jhana. This makes complete sense to me, and matches my understanding and practice.

 

Quote

Can you have the type of insight we are talking about while being "us"

 

The initial seeing (stream entry) coincides with seeing through the reality of the "self". As the fetters drop the insight is available, but comes and goes based on attention (I think of it as an "available perspective"). Eventually the last fetters are cleared and it is permanently how things are seen. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_awakening

 

 

Quote

@Creation gave a very good breakdown of the differences between types of insight

 

I do think that insight (type 1) builds as a byproduct of practice. Type 2 if you would...well that requires degrees of removal beyond what Id understand lay practitioners to be able to routinley drop into

 

I'd be curious to read that.

 

Quote

Just as many unusual things have happened me off the cusion than on it to be honest. In fact the most profound ones came when they were least expected

 

Almost all of my experiences happened off-cushion, strangely. Yes... and when least expected for sure. 

 

Quote

I should also state, I find the whole "energy emission" as proof of attainment a useless metric (probably the worst in fact) 

 

Not only can it be faked by an external machine. People who have the ability can pump it into folk and they can temporarily do it, or people can artifically charge their lower field using electrictiy. They can also take external pills and whatnot

 

I agree. None of the enlightened "beings" I know would do such a thing. Proving you are enlightened to a fabric of reality that is ALREADY enlightened is a silly endeavor. Only an "ego" would need to do that.

 

Quote

But for every person that talks the talk, how many walk the walk?

 

My experience has been that only a handful of people

 

That's fine. I agree. There are more than you might think. 

 

Quote

I meant when observation reverses, awareness sees itself unbound by the sense faculties

 

Yes, if you are fortunate to notice.

 

Quote

I would say the are periods of transition, A waxing and waning if you would  

 

Yes. I would say that we are born and die moment to moment, thousands of times or more a day. 

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

You are free to believe whatever you like. I gain nothing  at all by trying to convince you  

 

Ensuring that others who want to understand the mechanics of how these thiings actually work is my motivation for posting.

 

 I only do that because, many of the contributors to the site have ceased posting...So the place has slowed down

 

Having been shown YJJ principles from several sources, this is actually how it works

 

If "book descriptions" are things you find satisfactory, thats fine  

 

More on peoples practical experiences of "marrow" being literal here. Might be worth having a discussion with a few of Wang Lipings longer term students,

 

 

"I recall statements like " I felt the marrow in my bones moving"-- uh-huh...

Don't know how much of this I would have to read to get to your point, but I don't think it's on the first page.  If you could just speak to your own experience, that would be great. 

I mentioned my understanding that talk of the bones is really about the sense of gravity.  To me, it's like Koichi Tohei instructing his students to "keep weight underside" and then warning them not to feel the weight of the body.  It's the engagement with the sense of gravity that he's looking for, in conjunction with "keep one point", not any specific feeling of the body (my opinion, and it's very true!).

Not all of Cheng Man-Ch'ing's explanations work for me, but the things he quotes from the classics (God knows what he called "classics", no titles are given) usually accord with my experience.

Which is not so much with Tai Chi.  I learned the first part of Cheng's form when Steve Rose taught it for free in a park in Santa Rosa, California, and I'm still practicing with that (and the film of Cheng doing the full form so beautifully).  

Tohei's four points:
 

1) Keep one point;
2) Relax completely;
3) Keep weight underside;
4) Extend Ki.
 

(https://www.ki-aikido.de/en/v/kisoc/material/principles.php)

[Shadow_self]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I recall statements like " I felt the marrow in my bones moving"-- uh-huh...
 

 

Point being that Qi pressurizes inwards as it continues to build until it penetrates the bones

 

Any teacher of proper neigong/neidan will explain this to you

 

Quote

 

Don't know how much of this I would have to read to get to your point, but I don't think it's on the first page.

 

 

Point is as mentioned above

 

Quote

  If you could just speak to your own experience, that would be great. 

 

I am, please see below

 

Here is a description of whats happening at each stage of the Yi Jing Jing process(Tendon changing). The process that I work on as one aspect of training

 

Quote

Skin Depth
Essentially, those who enter into the foundation stages of Qi Gong will have
experiences related to various sensations around the body. The nervous system
will ‘read’ and process the information contained within moving Qi to give you
the experience of the Ba Chu or ‘eight experiences’. Most practitioners of Qi
Gong reach this stage within a relatively short space of time. It was known as the
‘skin depth’ skill within these arts.

 

Sinew Depth
When a person enters the ‘skin depth’ level of these arts, it means that they are
starting to change the nature of their physical body according to the teachings of
the Sinew-Changing Classic. The sinews and the Huang will transform as a
result of the practice.

Channel Depth
At channel depth, the physical body has transformed to such a level that the Qi is
conducting powerfully along the length of the soft tissues. The result is that the
channels begin to open. This is the stage of achieving the various circulations
and orbits of Qi Gong as well as having developed the efficiency of the body’s
functioning to a high level.

Viscera Depth
Beyond the channels come the viscera. At this depth of attainment, the Qi and
Shen of the organ systems begin to move into harmony with one another. More
than simply implying a high level of ‘organ health’, attainment of this level of
skill means that the ‘houses’ of the spirits are in order. The result of this is that
the Shen is being worked on through your training. It is a high level to reach.

Marrow Depth
When your training reaches the level of marrow depth, then it means the results
of the marrow washing will start to take place within your body. This will
generally start to happen as an automatic by-product of your training and not as
something you particularly need to ‘do’. There may be some practices that help
this process along its way, of course, but in general, it should start to take place
as a natural result of your internal cultivation. This is the deepest stage of work
with the body; the stage of transforming the Jing and the marrow.

 

 

Quote

I mentioned my understanding that talk of the bones is really about the sense of gravity.

 

  To me, it's like Koichi Tohei instructing his students to "keep weight underside" and then warning them not to feel the weight of the body.  It's the engagement with the sense of gravity that he's looking for, in conjunction with "keep one point", not any specific feeling of the body (my opinion, and it's very true!).

 

If you are talking about hanging the flesh off the bones, yes you are taught that almost immediately.

 

It is the basic starting point of qigong and neigong, the recalibration of the body and huang....see the first two stages above

 

This discussion of the bones is not related to the marrow washing aspect, aside from the point that you need to begining the process of hanging the flesh from the bones to begin working on the YJJ process

 

It is also a couple of million miles away from anything related to Jhana

 

Quote

Not all of Cheng Man-Ch'ing's explanations work for me, but the things he quotes from the classics (God knows what he called "classics", no titles are given) usually accord with my experience.
 

 

You are clearly quite fond of directing to public figures words. OK

 

While much of what I am talking about has been mentioned in passing for donkeys years, the actual mechanics behind the process....are only recently starting to become public knowledge

 

It might be better to suspend disbelief. The man in quesiton has actually spoke about the process I have mentioned (albiet not in the exact layout, but if you can add 2+2 then) 

 

He has spoken about qi and whatnot penetrating the bones.

 

Here use google

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=bks&q=marrow+cheng+man+ching&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjx-Y2Qo5eAAxWLBcAKHQUYB6QQBSgAegQIERAB&biw=1280&bih=569&dpr=1.5

Edited July 18, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Point being that Qi pressurizes inwards as it continues to build until it penetrates the bones

 

Any teacher of proper neigong/neidan will explain this to you
 

 

 

Is that your experience?

 

 

Quote

Skin Depth
Essentially, those who enter into the foundation stages of Qi Gong will have
experiences related to various sensations around the body. The nervous system
will ‘read’ and process the information contained within moving Qi to give you
the experience of the Ba Chu or ‘eight experiences’. Most practitioners of Qi
Gong reach this stage within a relatively short space of time. It was known as the
‘skin depth’ skill within these arts.

 

 

 

Not familiar with "eight experiences".

 

 

Quote

 

Sinew Depth
When a person enters the ‘skin depth’ level of these arts, it means that they are
starting to change the nature of their physical body according to the teachings of
the Sinew-Changing Classic. The sinews and the Huang will transform as a
result of the practice.

 

 

I am learning about ligaments--sinews not so much, but I think the terms are used interchangeably in the Chinese martial arts classics.  What I mostly practice, is calming the stretch of ligaments, but without "one-pointedness" to focus relaxing the muscles and calming the ligaments, it's not much.

 

 

Quote

Channel Depth
At channel depth, the physical body has transformed to such a level that the Qi is
conducting powerfully along the length of the soft tissues. The result is that the
channels begin to open. This is the stage of achieving the various circulations
and orbits of Qi Gong as well as having developed the efficiency of the body’s
functioning to a high level.

 

 

The theory that guides my practice with regard to soft tissues is:
 

Gracovetsky, Farfan and Lamay speculated that in lifting weight, the abdominal muscles work against the extensors to align the vertebrae of the lower spine. They demonstrated through mathematical models that given an appropriate alignment of the spine, displacement of the lumbodorsal fascial sheet from its normal position by even a small fraction of an inch can provide critical support to the structure of the spine. Whether that displacement was to the rear, effected by hydraulic pressure created by the abdominals, or forward, as a consequence of action of the sacrospinalis muscles, the models were not sufficient to determine. The authors noted, however, that displacement to the rear by pressure created by the abdominals would at least in part explain the heightened activity of the abdominals in weight-lifting (Gracovetsky, S., Farfan HF, Lamay C, 1997. A mathematical model of the lumbar spine using an optimal system to control muscles and ligaments. Orthopedic Clinics of North America 8: 135-153).

 

The study presupposed a flattening of the lumbar curve, like that of a person bent over to lift weight from the floor, but acknowledged that the control of the ligament system afforded by activity between the abdominals and extensors could not be directly accounted for in the models. My assumption is that a bent-knee posture like the lotus can engage the mechanism of fascial support the authors described, through alignment of the vertebrae of the spine.

 

The activity of the extensor muscles behind the sacrum might also bear on the displacement of fascia. Dr. H. F. Farfan wrote:

 

There is another peculiarity of the erector muscles of the spine. Below the level of the fifth lumbar vertebra, the muscle contracts in a compartment enclosed by bone anteriorly, laterally, and medially. Posteriorly, the compartment is closed by the lumbodorsal fascia. When contracted, the diameter of the muscle mass tends to increase. This change in shape of the muscle may exert a wedging effect between the sacrum and the lumbodorsal fascia, thereby increasing the tension in the fascia. This may be one of the few instances where a muscle can exert force by pushing.

 

( “Mechanical Disorders of the Low Back”, H. F. Farfan, p 183)

 

Farfan doesn’t address whether or not the “wedging effect” between the sacrum and the lumbodorsal fascia might contribute to the displacement of the lumbodorsal fascia behind the lower spine, nor does he discuss how the rotation of the tailbone and sacrum might affect the location of the tension produced by the “wedging effect” of the extensor muscles.

 

 

So yes, from relaxed activity in particular muscles to an even stretch in the ligaments between the bones, to a sense of balance between the hara and the koshi (area behind the pelvis), to some kind of support from the tailbone up behind the spine and the involvement of the limbs and the jaw with the one point.  First, second, and third jhanas.

 

 

Quote

Viscera Depth
Beyond the channels come the viscera. At this depth of attainment, the Qi and
Shen of the organ systems begin to move into harmony with one another. More
than simply implying a high level of ‘organ health’, attainment of this level of
skill means that the ‘houses’ of the spirits are in order. The result of this is that
the Shen is being worked on through your training. It is a high level to reach.

 

 

I can't do any of what I wrote about in the paragraphs above without the freedom of the "one-pointedness of mind" to move.   There's a transition, to where the location of attention is the path, because attention is being placed as a function of the movement of breath.  

The difficulty people have is in finding the necessity that makes the location of attention a function of the movement of breath, and staying present for the experience.  Fourth jhana, the cessation of volition in the activity of breath and in action of the body in general.  According to Gautama, "one comes to be sitting down", but I think any bent knee posture has the potential.

Sensation like a cloth swaddling the head, and the entire body, according to Gautama.  That accords with the classic, "manifests in the skin and hair".

Maybe the teaching you're referring to begins with the skin, because the fourth jhana can be recalled through the sign of the concentration, so the skin sensation is kind of a beginning and an end?  Not what those teaching the viewpoint intend, though, I'm sure.  Oh dem bones! 
 

 

Quote

 

Marrow Depth
When your training reaches the level of marrow depth, then it means the results
of the marrow washing will start to take place within your body. This will
generally start to happen as an automatic by-product of your training and not as
something you particularly need to ‘do’. There may be some practices that help
this process along its way, of course, but in general, it should start to take place
as a natural result of your internal cultivation. This is the deepest stage of work
with the body; the stage of transforming the Jing and the marrow.

 

 

 

No idea.

 

 

Quote

 

It is also a couple of million miles away from anything related to Jhana

 

 

People think the jhanas are a million miles away, from what I've read.  I am barely able to practice as I've described here, and I need the elements of all four jhanas working to really focus on any one, but the ease of the third jhana is a draw.  At the edge of my practice, but I'll take it.

 

 

Quote

 

 

You are clearly quite fond of directing to public figures words. OK

 

While much of what I am talking about has been mentioned in passing for donkeys years, the actual mechanics behind the process....are only recently starting to become public knowledge

 

It might be better to suspend disbelief. The man in quesiton has actually spoke about the process I have mentioned (albiet not in the exact layout, but if you can add 2+2 then) 

 

He has spoken about qi and whatnot penetrating the bones.

 

Here use google

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=bks&q=marrow+cheng+man+ching&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjx-Y2Qo5eAAxWLBcAKHQUYB6QQBSgAegQIERAB&biw=1280&bih=569&dpr=1.5

 

Yes, he did, and I see he quotes the classics as saying "The ch'i permeates into the bone and becomes pure steel" (“Cheng Man-Ch’ing’s T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, Cheng Man-Ch’ing, © Juliana T. Cheng, North Atlantic Books p 25).   He continues:

 

We need to explain this further. In the Spring of '29, Mr. Ts'ao... studied T'ai Chi Chuan with me.  I told him to sink the ch'i to the tan t'ien. He asked me, "What is the use of that?" I said, "Sinking the ch'i has benefits, but these are less than the benefit of having the mind and the ch'i together and staying in the tan t'ien."

(ibid)

 

 

Cheng goes on to explain that a person's abdomen stores up much water, and exercise prevents excess water from causing harm.  He goes into a little Daoist alchemy without calling it such, fire under the cauldron and all that.  He continues:

 

Then I further stated that when the ch'i permeates the bone, there will be pure steel.  This happens when the ch'i moves from the tan-t'ien through the coccyx and reaches the spine.

(ibid, p 26)

 

... When the ch'i and the mind stay together in the tan-t'ien, this not only transforms the water to ch'i but also transforms the semen into ch'i.  The heat from the ch'i can also be conducted through the spine. ... This process is ramified by the ch'i from the tan t'ien, which makes this heat go through the coccyx and up the spine until it reaches the headtop and spreads to the four limbs.  The warm ch'i fills up the bones and remains inside until the semen ch'i forms a sticky substance.  This sticky substance becomes marrow and adheres to the inside of the bones like the plating of nickel or gold.  ... When the marrow is built up over a period of time the bones will be strong.  Such is the process by which the bones become the pure hardness that can overcome anything.

(ibid, p 27-28)

 

 

He's excluded half the population from being able to harden the bones, there.  

Seriously, the reference to heat is interesting--back to the tummo practice.  I believe that practice is based on the stretch of the sacroiliac ligaments, but it's not something I've ever undertaken.  A major part of my sitting seems to be finding the appropriate activity to open the stretch of ligaments between the sacrum and the pelvis, and between the pelvis and the lower spine, out of relaxation and one-pointedness.  Especially with the left leg uppermost, I barely manage, yet somehow.

Where it's at, with me.

If I may ask, what was your source, on those quotes about the levels of "depth"?

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

"Any teacher of proper neigong/neidan will explain this to you" ...btw what do those teachers do when evil forces try to co-opt such teachings?   (being there is so much info in the public domain)

Edited July 18, 2023 by old3bob

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Is that your experience?

 

My experience is related to the former stages, because these things happen sequentially.

 

Dont be fooled. Marrow depth is a very admirable achievement indeed

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Not familiar with "eight experiences".

 

 

Here, allow me to help, courtesy of Damo Mitchell (as the five stages of the YJJ also, book linked below)

 

And remember, none if this is feeling qi, it is feeling the way qi is interacting with the body

 

Quote

The eight experiences are as follows:
• Diao (shaking): Feeling like you are shaking inside is due to the
movement of Qi, primarily Yang Qi, reacting with your body’s tissues.
As the tissues begin to unbind as a reaction to the movement of Qi, they
shake.
• Yi (excitement): This indicates a hyperactivity of the inside of the body
and sometimes the mind; it can leave you ‘buzzing’ for some time
afterwards. This is a sign of the Qi moving at an increased rate. You are
feeling the body’s sensation to increased Qi flow and the energy that is
produced by this process.
• Leng (feeling cold): Feelings of cold are usually how the body
processes a region of the body with a chronic deficiency of Qi, or else,
if the cold feels as if it is moving along a channel, it is usually how you
experience an energetic pathogen leaving the system. In this case, it is
the reaction of the movement of Qi that you are feeling.
• Re (feeling hot): Though there are types of heat associated with Jing and
circulation of essence, there is also the general heat that can be felt
throughout the body during Qi Gong practice. This heat is down to an
increased flow of blood, or else resistance in the channel system as Qi is
trying to conduct along its length.
• Fu (feeling light): As Qi moves upwards in the body, it can be a little
‘unrooting’, which makes you feel light and as if you could float. Many
of these kinds of somatic experiences where the whole body’s feeling is
changed are because of the movement of Yin Qi.
• Chen (feeling as if sinking): As the more Yin types of Qi, including
Water Qi, are experienced, they can feel as if you are becoming heavier
or being drawn down towards the ground.
• Jian (feeling tight): If Qi conducts strongly through a channel, then it
can actually tighten the channel temporarily. This is because the
connective tissues of the channel are reacting to the increased
information of the Qi passing along their length.
• Ruan (feeling soft): As channels open and release tension from their
length, it is normal for the body to suddenly feel as if it is softening or
slackening to a certain degree. This is the by-product of Qi helping the
channel system to free itself up.

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

The theory that guides my practice with regard to soft tissues is:
 

Gracovetsky, Farfan and Lamay speculated that in lifting weight, the abdominal muscles work against the extensors to align the vertebrae of the lower spine. They demonstrated through mathematical models that given an appropriate alignment of the spine, displacement of the lumbodorsal fascial sheet from its normal position by even a small fraction of an inch can provide critical support to the structure of the spine. Whether that displacement was to the rear, effected by hydraulic pressure created by the abdominals, or forward, as a consequence of action of the sacrospinalis muscles, the models were not sufficient to determine. The authors noted, however, that displacement to the rear by pressure created by the abdominals would at least in part explain the heightened activity of the abdominals in weight-lifting (Gracovetsky, S., Farfan HF, Lamay C, 1997. A mathematical model of the lumbar spine using an optimal system to control muscles and ligaments. Orthopedic Clinics of North America 8: 135-153).

 

The study presupposed a flattening of the lumbar curve, like that of a person bent over to lift weight from the floor, but acknowledged that the control of the ligament system afforded by activity between the abdominals and extensors could not be directly accounted for in the models. My assumption is that a bent-knee posture like the lotus can engage the mechanism of fascial support the authors described, through alignment of the vertebrae of the spine.

 

The activity of the extensor muscles behind the sacrum might also bear on the displacement of fascia. Dr. H. F. Farfan wrote:

 

There is another peculiarity of the erector muscles of the spine. Below the level of the fifth lumbar vertebra, the muscle contracts in a compartment enclosed by bone anteriorly, laterally, and medially. Posteriorly, the compartment is closed by the lumbodorsal fascia. When contracted, the diameter of the muscle mass tends to increase. This change in shape of the muscle may exert a wedging effect between the sacrum and the lumbodorsal fascia, thereby increasing the tension in the fascia. This may be one of the few instances where a muscle can exert force by pushing.

 

( “Mechanical Disorders of the Low Back”, H. F. Farfan, p 183)

 

Farfan doesn’t address whether or not the “wedging effect” between the sacrum and the lumbodorsal fascia might contribute to the displacement of the lumbodorsal fascia behind the lower spine, nor does he discuss how the rotation of the tailbone and sacrum might affect the location of the tension produced by the “wedging effect” of the extensor muscles.

 

 

So yes, from relaxed activity in particular muscles to an even stretch in the ligaments between the bones, to a sense of balance between the hara and the koshi (area behind the pelvis), to some kind of support from the tailbone up behind the spine and the involvement of the limbs and the jaw with the one point.  First, second, and third jhanas.

 

 

I will present a piece of advice to you, and you may do as you wish

 

You would do well to leave the biology at the front door for a while.

 

Trying to overlay western reductive materailistic frameworks over eastern concepts = fast path to disaster

 

These things are clearly discussed in the traditions and have their own theories and frameworks that are empirically verifiable via adoption of the practices and diligence

 

The teachings around the Huang and building,  conducting  and moving qi in the body are clear, and my suggestion to anyone is to approach them with an empty cup, lest one go in casting all manner of self distortion, bias and heuristics over them

 

Feel free to disregard the advice, I certainly dont gain anything by you taking it.  (by the way, ive a  psychophysical/neuroscientific background, so it isnt like i dont see the allure, I just learned better over time) 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I can't do any of what I wrote about in the paragraphs above without the freedom of the "one-pointedness of mind" to move.   There's a transition, to where the location of attention is the path, because attention is being placed as a function of the movement of breath.  

The difficulty people have is in finding the necessity that makes the location of attention a function of the movement of breath, and staying present for the experience.  Fourth jhana, the cessation of volition in the activity of breath and in action of the body in general.  According to Gautama, "one comes to be sitting down", but I think any bent knee posture has the potential.

 

 

Again, you might want to look at what some of the practitioners (like freeform)  have said on this forum about the jhanas

 

They are not what you (or what most people think)

 

Playing mental limbo where the bar keeps getting progressively lowered over time is how we wound up here in the first place

  

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

People think the jhanas are a million miles away, from what I've read.  I am barely able to practice as I've described here, and I need the elements of all four jhanas working to really focus on any one, but the ease of the third jhana is a draw.  At the edge of my practice, but I'll take it.

 

They are  a million miles away. The most accurate description of even coming close to 1st Jhana is here imo (link attached) 

 

Quote

When you start working on aspects of consciousness with advanced teachers (that expect results from you - or you're out), you begin to realise just how much internal strength, stamina, effort and energy is required to achieve something like Jhanna. I know a lot of people think they've achieved Jhanna... but let's just say that maybe they've been misled on what Jhanna really is... For example as you enter and stabilise the 1st Jhanna, you can discern the full cause and effect chain on any body or mind you choose to focus on... that sounds abstract... as an example the whole of Chinese Medicine and it's understandings of cause and effect came from insight at the level of 1st Jhanna... If you enter 1st Jhanna at the moments before death your body will not rot. After death in 1st Jhanna, you're able to choose when and as whom you are reborn...

 

To even get a chance at entering 1st Jhanna you first must be able to enter and stay in samadhi for several days straight... That in itself is a superhuman ability... Imagine the most intense mental focus - like attempting to solve the hardest puzzle you've ever solved - and keeping that level of focus completely steady and unwavering for 72hrs - and not straining, pushing or using any effort to do so.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Yes, he did, and I see he quotes the classics as saying "The ch'i permeates into the bone and becomes pure steel" (“Cheng Man-Ch’ing’s T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, Cheng Man-Ch’ing, © Juliana T. Cheng, North Atlantic Books p 25).   He continues:

 

We need to explain this further. In the Spring of '29, Mr. Ts'ao... studied T'ai Chi Chuan with me.  I told him to sink the ch'i to the tan t'ien. He asked me, "What is the use of that?" I said, "Sinking the ch'i has benefits, but these are less than the benefit of having the mind and the ch'i together and staying in the tan t'ien."

(ibid)

 

 

Cheng goes on to explain that a person's abdomen stores up much water, and exercise prevents excess water from causing harm.  He goes into a little Daoist alchemy without calling it such, fire under the cauldron and all that.  He continues:

 

Then I further stated that when the ch'i permeates the bone, there will be pure steel.  This happens when the ch'i moves from the tan-t'ien through the coccyx and reaches the spine.

(ibid, p 26)

 

... When the ch'i and the mind stay together in the tan-t'ien, this not only transforms the water to ch'i but also transforms the semen into ch'i.  The heat from the ch'i can also be conducted through the spine. ... This process is ramified by the ch'i from the tan t'ien, which makes this heat go through the coccyx and up the spine until it reaches the headtop and spreads to the four limbs.  The warm ch'i fills up the bones and remains inside until the semen ch'i forms a sticky substance.  This sticky substance becomes marrow and adheres to the inside of the bones like the plating of nickel or gold.  ... When the marrow is built up over a period of time the bones will be strong.  Such is the process by which the bones become the pure hardness that can overcome anything.

(ibid, p 27-28)

 

 

He's excluded half the population from being able to harden the bones, there.  
 

 

Except he has not, because

 

Either he does not understand either he

 

Or the translator does not understand what they are saying

 

(or both)

 

Honestly, I am not sure you understand what you are looking at here, so thats further muddying the waters

 

And given the atrocious nature of the text and conversation, I cant fully make the distinction myself, so dont take me up the wrong way,

 

However, I will do my best, and I will assume

 

He is referring to is the Jing Hua, the spark of Yang contained within the Jing.

 

In terms of neidan this is extracted and worked with. 

 

I am not sure it is the marrow depth of the Yijinjing, because he is mentioning jing and sperm here, so I assume its the former

 

Getting back to the Jing Hua, It is the central Yang line within the water hexagram (Also known as true yang within yin) 

 

 

Both men and women do neidan

 

So the male work is in relation to the reworking of the substance within the sexual fluids

 

For females, it is related to the menstrual blood

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

If I may ask, what was your source, on those quotes about the levels of "depth"?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Comprehensive_Guide_to_Daoist_Nei_Gong/4mpnDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover

 

I strongly suggest a thorough read of this with a highlighter

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

"Any teacher of proper neigong/neidan will explain this to you" ...btw what do those teachers do when evil forces try to co-opt such teachings?   (being there is so much info in the public domain)

 

Youd need to ask them, Im sure they all have their own ways

 

One thing I personally observe, is that things are leaking out over time because bits and pieces have leaked out, and they are often only partially true (or not at all) and sometimes harmful

 

So it seems like access to the tantric foundational work is opening up as a reaction to that in one sense

 

I also believe there is something else at play, but Im unwilling to delve into that

Edited July 18, 2023 by Shadow_self

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Youd need to ask them, Im sure they all have their own ways

 

One thing I personally observe, is that things are leaking out over time because bits and pieces have leaked out, and they are often only partially true (or not at all) and sometimes harmful

 

So it seems like access to the tantric foundational work is opening up as a reaction to that in one sense

 

I also believe there is something else at play, but Im unwilling to delve into that

 

I'd say indications are that  massive amounts of planet wide dark karma from adharmic actions are apparently coming into play, along with the almost eternal and mounting astral attacks of greater darkness being made against mankind... don't know what happened to the "age of Aquarius"...?

Edited July 18, 2023 by old3bob

[Shadow_self]

17 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

I'd say indications are that  massive amounts of planet wide dark karma from adharmic actions are apparently coming into play, along with the almost eternal and mounting astral attacks of greater darkness being made against mankind... don't know what happened to the "age of Aquarius"...?

 

I dont see much in the way of evil co-opting practices for nefarious purposes

 

A few money grabbers?  Check

 

A few delulded people pretending they are something other than they are?  check

 

A neverending supply of impotent teachings that are effictively wheelspinning? check

 

Understanding the mechanics of something is one thing, actually putting them into practice and getting them to work is another thing entirely in my opinion at least

 

As long as the latter escapes them (and I think that will always be the case) I remain happy enough

Edited July 18, 2023 by Shadow_self

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I dont see much in the way of evil co-opting practices for nefarious purposes

 

A few money grabbers?  Check

 

A few delulded people pretending they are something other than they are?  check

 

A neverending supply of impotent teachings that are effictively wheelspinning? check

 

Understanding the mechanics of something is one thing, actually putting them into practice and getting them to work is another thing entirely in my opinion at least

 

As long as the latter escapes them (and I think that will always be the case) I remain happy enough

 

I'd say on small individual scales for those with good karma, check

but on massive scales of dark karma's that effect millions of individuals negatively, not check

 

(getting off my earlier question,  although there is still some connection)

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Understanding the mechanics of something is one thing, actually putting them into practice and getting them to work is another thing entirely in my opinion at least

 

Thanks for the extensive reply, and the source work.  

I was able to skim a little bit of Damo Mitchell's text.  Looking at the Preface and the Acknowledgements, what stands out to me is that he doesn't credit any teachers, but only the text, "Sinew-Changing Classic".   Reading a little more, he actually sought out teachers, but determined that they pretended to know more than they actually did!  So, he worked it out himself.

I understand that, of course I'm doing the same thing.  I guess I have to conclude that you feel you've benefited greatly from what he has to offer.  That's great, of course.

I'm not looking for bones of steel.  I keep wondering why people look past the relinquishment of volition in the activity of breathing, and what makes that possible in daily living--as I wrote recently:

 

Many people in the Buddhist community take enlightenment to be the goal of Buddhist practice. I would say that when a person consciously experiences automatic movement in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things becomes the more pressing concern. Gautama taught such a way of living, although I don’t believe that such a way of living is unique to Buddhism.

 

p.s.--Ben Lo was a senior student of Cheng Man-Ch'ing's.  There's a forward on the translation he did with Martin Inn, by Cheng's widow--she says she asked Ben Lo many times to do the translation.  There's also a translation by Douglas Wile, and I find the two translations accord very closely.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Mark Foote