Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[Mark Foote]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:07 AM, dwai said:

When enlightenment or self realization is touted as the experience of limitless bliss, it is usually believed that the bliss of the self is superior to the transitory bliss encountered in daily life. But all experiences of bliss, whether they are born of sensory experience, the discovery of some unknown object or spiritual practice like meditation, are the fullness and limitlessness of the self reflecting in the body-mind. The bliss belongs neither to the self nor to the body-mind. It belongs to the relationship between them.
 

I'm ok with that!

[old3bob]

"When enlightenment or self realization is touted as the experience of limitless bliss, it is usually believed that the bliss of the self is superior to the transitory bliss encountered in daily life. But all experiences of bliss, whether they are born of sensory experience, the discovery of some unknown object or spiritual practice like meditation, are the fullness and limitlessness of the self reflecting in the body-mind. The bliss belongs neither to the self nor to the body-mind. It belongs to the relationship between them."

 

that sounds like an aspect and factor which can be agreed upon...but I'd comment that "Bliss" (with the big B ) is an integral and always connected part of Self without there being dependence on an external  relationship in some form of duality to be.  (which granted is something that does come into manifestation)

[Mark Foote]

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

well it reminds me of those who are good sports,  which may not be listed in the teachings per-se but is something not to be ignored.

 

 

 

[old3bob]

btw where did you get that old clip and were you there?

[manitou]

On 7/16/2023 at 12:11 PM, old3bob said:

I'd say that we definitely do not have the same soul times countless quad-drillions x quad-drillions, etc... thus there is the unique natures that we all have.  But if an individual soul merges back into no longer being identified as individual soul along with their soul/light body no longer existing since it then dissolves into the "ocean" then we could say they are returned to the Supreme-undifferentiated-Soul or Spirit....which almost no one is ready for or evolved to the point of no coming back....Btw it could also be said that we have many that want to be and remain as individual super-duper dudes or dude-etts, so to speak 

 

 

I'd say we do have the same 'soul' but it appears differentiated  due to different conditionings.

[old3bob]

34 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

I'd say we do have the same 'soul' but it appears differentiated  due to different conditionings.

 

countless quadrillions x quadrillions of souls are created in the image of "God" and inhabit all the realms as unique beings,  I'd say it is wrong to make some kind of new age or old age (?) abstraction that those quadrillions do not exist which would be like saying the countless rays of countless suns do not exist, although or even though none of us would exist without the One source of all.  (for one example, such is well pointed out in the Tao Teh Ching via The Tao, The One, The Two, The Three, etc. and on to the Ten Thousand)

Edited July 22, 2023 by old3bob

[manitou]

What does the image of "God" mean as it pertains to quadrillions of souls?  Do we look like Him?

[old3bob]

52 minutes ago, manitou said:

What does the image of "God" mean as it pertains to quadrillions of souls?  Do we look like Him?

 

like bodies of light which are the actual souls...those bodies are woven of light.  (although souls are still evolving while "God" is not)  Btw, drawing of Masters, Saints, Buddha's, gods, goddess, Angels, etc. who are sitting upon beautiful lit up lotus are actual depictions of very advanced souls.

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by old3bob

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

 

This is 觀音 guan1 yin1, Bodhisattva of compassion, of Chinese Buddhism. She holds a bottle of water in the left hand, and middle finger and thumb of the right hand hold a willow tree branch.

Guan Yin originated in India as Avalokiteshvara, the male bodhisattva of compassion. He was introduced as a male deity, early centuries AD. Later on he became androgynous, and by the eighth century had become female in China. 
 

This change because he merged with the indigenous Goddess 西王母  xi1 wang2 mu3, Queen Mother of the West. As Mahayana Buddhism began to filter into China from the 1st century CE, Taoist deities were co-opted into Buddhism. 
 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

What does the image of "God" mean as it pertains to quadrillions of souls?  Do we look like Him?

 

It's a misunderstood phrase in a language many people don't understand containing profound wisdom cloaked under a children's story.

 

Believe it or not, the microcosm you mentioned in the other post to me today is presented here as well.

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

btw where did you get that old clip and were you there?
 

No, are you kidding--not there!

Full video, from which I made the clip above.

Me:
 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

Alright, rocking away, 

[Mark Foote]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:47 PM, stirling said:

 

... But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (When we haven't good, you know, breathing it is rather difficult to just to sit.)...

 

So Dogen Zenji's Fukanzazengi, you know, it-- he says, “Originally we are enlightened. Why is it necessary to sit?” [Laughs.] There is not necessary to sit. Even though we don't sit, we are practicing zazen originally. But he says, “If there is slightest”-- and this is not literal interpretation, but translation-- but “if there is slightest idea of self,” you know, “the true practice,” you know, “will change into,” you know, “quite different practice.”...

 

... And Buddha suppose to talk about dharma in his, you know, first stage, where he has still, you know, thinking mind-- pure thinking mind. Pure thinking mind is, you know, without idea of self, you know. Mind moves, you know, like a wave-- like waves, one after another. But there is no idea of self at that stage. In that stage, you know, we have pure thinking.

 

Why we say “pure thinking” is because there is no idea of self. That is to say, the images you have in practice, you know, in zazen, various image will, you know, come up from the subconsciousness, you know [laughs, laughter]. That is how, you know, you have images in your mind in zazen. But if images is just images and no idea of self is involved in it. “Oh! I have terrible images [laughing, laughter]. I must get rid of it!” That is already, you know, idea of self.

 

 

Meanwhile, down at the bottom of the page, Suzuki entertains questions.

 

Quote

 

Student B: Sesshin means “to gather one's mind.” Can you talk about that for a minute?

SR: [Laughs.] Yeah. ... The effort we make is not something to do something or to govern our mind or control our mind. To do it, just do it without any idea of self is more like-- more appropriate interpretation of sitting. Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen. You know, from old, old time, you know, we have that technical term, konpunjo. Konpunjo means “to enter,” you know. That is started from Theravada practice, you know. To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they practice some special practice. Those practice is not the practice of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages.

So in-- in one-week sesshin, maybe you have some practice to prepare for good shikantaza. I think that is very good point. We should not mixed up pure zazen and konpunjo, preparatory zazen. Kon is “kin”-- ”near”. Pun is “divided.” So it is not the pure practice itself. It is different-- it is divided practice from the pure practice, but it is very near to the [laughs, laughter] real practice. So, kon–pun–jo. But if you have complete understanding of zazen, konpunjo can be pure practice [laughs, laughter]. 

Student C: I wanted to ask where does effort come in? That is to say, suppose we become part of [3-4 words unclear], but making an effort in that direction is shikantaza possible?

SR: Good question. The effort-- I had-- for a long, long time I had that problem. And-- but I didn't ask anyone about it. But the effort to continue the practice is allowable [laughs]. To make our practice pure is-- effort to make our practice pure is allowable. If something comes out, let it come out-- come up. Without some effort, you cannot do that [laughs]. If stuff [probably gesturing] is standing like this-- if it stand just like this, it is not our practice. When it is supported by invisible relationship, then this is completely supported.

So how we keep those invisible relationship is maybe belief or prayer [laughs]. “Let me have pure practice.” [Laughs.] “Even though we don't know what it is.” [Laughs, laughter.] “It is too much to know the relationship, but let me be like this.” [Laughs.] That kind of effort is necessary. If it doesn't go this way or that way it doesn't be like this. It cannot be like this, and so when your zazen, you know-- there must be that kind of feeling. Why-- that is why we stretch our neck, you know, as if your head is going upwards [laughs] to the heaven. And your back should be straight, as if your back is deeply rooted to the center of the earth. Shhww. [Laughs.] That kind of feeling should be in our shikantaza. That kind of feeling is not the feeling, you know, when we intensify our practice, but, you know, some spirit-- spiritual feeling.
 

(The Background of Shikantaza, Shunryu Suzuki, City Center February 22nd, 1970--numerous "you know"s and some false starts edited out by yours truly)
 

 

That's pretty amazing, isn't it?
 

... in one-week sesshin, maybe you have some practice to prepare for good shikantaza.

Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen.

 

To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they (Theravadans) practice some special practice. Those practice(s are) not the practice(s) of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages.

 

But if you have complete understanding of zazen, konpunjo ("to enter") can be pure practice.

 

 

The mindfulness in the four applications of mindfulness Gautama described was to be accompanied by "making self surrender the object of thought" and laying hold of "one-pointedness of mind".  Konpunjo? The konpunjo of pure practice?  

“It is too much to know the relationship, but let me be like this”:

 

that is why we stretch our neck, you know, as if your head is going upwards [laughs] to the heaven. And your back should be straight, as if your back is deeply rooted to the center of the earth. Shhww. [Laughs.] That kind of feeling should be in our shikantaza. That kind of feeling is not the feeling, you know, when we intensify our practice, but, you know, some spirit-- spiritual feeling.

 

 

Even though we don't understand why particular effort in posture is related to zazen or shikantaza, we still must have faith and "be like this".  I think I have a pretty good idea of why particular effort in posture is necessary, but there's still a leap to the experience of the placement of attention by the movement of breath and the effortless coordination of the activity of inhalation and exhalation in the "consciousness-informed" body.

Equally necessary:
 

When it is supported by invisible relationship, then this is completely supported.
 

The feeling of things outside and of people on the other side of the wall sitting with me is a feeling of their direct participation in the activity of the body through their participation in the placement of attention by the movement of breath.   It's invisible, but supportive, provided I extend the mind of friendship or compassion to things and people outside.

From the lecture on "Breathing", as before:

 

 So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.

The mind is “concentrated in the breathing” when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear–that’s the way I read what Suzuki is saying.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Michael Sternbach]

On 22.7.2023 at 7:56 PM, manitou said:

What does the image of "God" mean as it pertains to quadrillions of souls?  Do we look like Him?

 

Hi Manitou,

 

The human form reflects the 'All Encompassing One' on a microcosmic level. There are indeed individual souls, but the thing to appreciate here is that the soul is not a closed system.

 

One metaphor that might help understand this better (and I will underline that it's just a metaphor) is to imagine your soul emanating like a light cone from your crown chakra--as does the soul of all others around you. Now the higher up you go, the more all these individual souls will intersect with one another.

 

At Infinity, there will be nothing but Unity. But then, the outermost is mirrored by the innermost. So it is correct to say that the One is at once at the very centre of your being.

[manitou]

On 7/22/2023 at 2:10 PM, Mark Foote said:

No, are you kidding--not there!

Full video, from which I made the clip above.

 

 

My dearest Mr. Foote, do you have any fingertips left??

[manitou]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Hi Manitou,

 

The human form reflects the 'All Encompassing One' on a microcosmic level. There are indeed individual souls, but the thing to appreciate here is that the soul is not a closed system.

 

One metaphor that might help understand this better (and I will underline that it's just a metaphor) is to imagine your soul emanating like a light cone from your crown chakra--as does the soul of all others around you. Now the higher up you go, the more all these individual souls will intersect with one another.

 

At Infinity, there will be nothing but Unity. But then, the outermost is mirrored by the innermost. So it is correct to say that the One is at once at the very centre of your being.

 

 

(did you have a tiny epiphany as you were writing this?)

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

(did you have a tiny epiphany as you were writing this?)

 

Was just connecting some dots. 🙂

[Mark Foote]

21 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

My dearest Mr. Foote, do you have any fingertips left??
 

Working to re-aquire those callouses now, manitou!

[Mark Foote]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:37 PM, stirling said:

 

 

Quote

And Buddha suppose to talk about dharma in his, you know, first stage, where he has still, you know, thinking mind-- pure thinking mind. Pure thinking mind is, you know, without idea of self, you know. 
 

 

70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, City Center transcript entered onto disk by Jose Escobar, 1997. Checked against tape and made verbatim by Dana Velden and Bill Redican (2/15/01)
 

https://suzukiroshi.engagewisdom.com/talks/background-shikantaza

 

 

 

 

"First stage, where he has still... thinking mind-- pure thinking mind (without idea of self)"?

 

Now I, Aggivessana, am aware that when I am teaching dhamma to companies consisting of many hundreds, each person thinks thus about me:  "The recluse Gautama is teaching dhamma especially for me." But this, Aggivessana, should not be understood thus.  For when a Tathagatha is teaching dhamma to others it is for the sake of general instruction.  And I, Aggivessana, at the close of such a talk, steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide.
 

(MN I 249, Pali Text Society vol I p 303)

 

Why would he need to concentrate his mind subjectively in "that first characteristic of concentration" if he were already in a state of concentration? 

Suzuki said:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, link as previous)

 

 

My attitude toward "preparatory practice"--it's all letting go of doing, and letting go of doing begins with one-pointedness of mind, which is an involuntary thing:

 

I have described the experience of “one-pointedness of mind” as the experience of the placement of attention by the movement of breath.  I would contend that the necessity of breath utilizes the placement of attention to coordinate activity all the time, but consciousness of the placement enables the experience of a singularity in the location of attention from moment to moment:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(Mindfulness of Death)

 

Suzuki mentioned only the first, second and third jhanas in his description of "preparatory zazen" (in the question and answer of the transcript cited above):

Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen. You know, from old, old time, you know, we have that technical term, konpunjo. Konpunjo means “to enter,” you know. That is started from Theravada practice, you know. To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they practice some special practice. Those practice is not the practice of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages.

(70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza)

 

 

There are stages in letting go, that I think can be observed, along the lines that Gautama described.  I would say that the first jhana, where thought continues to be applied and sustained, is one of those stages. 

 

Interesting that Suzuki did not mention the fourth jhana, where "pureness of mind" finally emerges:
 

Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind.

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93)

 

The “pureness of mind” I believe refers to the absence of any intention to act, not to the absence of thought.

 

I would say that suffusing the body with “purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind” is widening awareness so that there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot become the location where attention is placed.   

When there is “not one particle of the body" that cannot become the location where attention is placed, then I feel to be just sitting. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

On 7/24/2023 at 2:19 PM, Mark Foote said:

.. in one-week sesshin, maybe you have some practice to prepare for good shikantaza.

Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen.

 

This can be the case where coming directly to Zazen is not yet easy or possible, absolutely. So, you begin with an object and when that object drops out naturally rest in "silent illumination". Eventually this isn't necessary. 

 

Note: Some Zen teachers don't give a new student instruction with an object, but merely ask them to begin by watching the mind without attachment with an eye to learning Shikataza immediately. Where a Tibetan teacher that teaches Dzogchen is concerned it is the same - go directly to the direct practice of "actualizing the fundamental point" as Dogen would have it, or "resting in the nature of mind" as the Tibetans would say it. 

 

On 7/24/2023 at 2:19 PM, Mark Foote said:

To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they (Theravadans) practice some special practice. Those practice(s are) not the practice(s) of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages.

 

But if you have complete understanding of zazen, konpunjo ("to enter") can be pure practice.

 

It is often possible for many to skip moving through various impermanent states in a Relative practice and begin directly to sit in a formless, empty Absolute practice (like Shikantaza) instead. 

 

On 7/24/2023 at 2:19 PM, Mark Foote said:

that is why we stretch our neck, you know, as if your head is going upwards [laughs] to the heaven. And your back should be straight, as if your back is deeply rooted to the center of the earth. Shhww. [Laughs.] That kind of feeling should be in our shikantaza. That kind of feeling is not the feeling, you know, when we intensify our practice, but, you know, some spirit-- spiritual feeling.

 

Even though we don't understand why particular effort in posture is related to zazen or shikantaza, we still must have faith and "be like this".  I think I have a pretty good idea of why particular effort in posture is necessary, but there's still a leap to the experience of the placement of attention by the movement of breath and the effortless coordination of the activity of inhalation and exhalation in the "consciousness-informed" body.

 

The Tibetans exhort you to be the Buddha you are, taking on his/their seated form and attitude. Spine straight "like a stack of coins" but requiring no effort to keep it there (this is why there is a cushion) gaze wide and relaxed, etc. I find you know when you get it right - the mind "clicks" and goes quiet when you get it right, being at attention, but being effortlessly at ease. You could easily make all of this into a "to do" list, but that would be missing the mark. 

 

On 7/24/2023 at 2:19 PM, Mark Foote said:

The feeling of things outside and of people on the other side of the wall sitting with me is a feeling of their direct participation in the activity of the body through their participation in the placement of attention by the movement of breath.   It's invisible, but supportive, provided I extend the mind of friendship or compassion to things and people outside.

 

This feeling comes where there is an absence of "self". When the "self" drops out (and this happens in any dedicated meditators practice all the time) there is actualizing the myriad things as well as the "self". It isn't because of any particular intent, or idea or effort, or even of any particular focal point. To sit this way is to be without ANY specific focal point. This interconnectedness is with the undifferentiated everything if you examine it. 

 

Quote

From the lecture on "Breathing", as before:

 

 So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.

The mind is “concentrated in the breathing” when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear–that’s the way I read what Suzuki is saying.

 

For the preparatory practice of Zazen, yes. 

[stirling]

On 7/27/2023 at 2:39 PM, Mark Foote said:

"First stage, where he has still... thinking mind-- pure thinking mind (without idea of self)"?

 

Now I, Aggivessana, am aware that when I am teaching dhamma to companies consisting of many hundreds, each person thinks thus about me:  "The recluse Gautama is teaching dhamma especially for me." But this, Aggivessana, should not be understood thus.  For when a Tathagatha is teaching dhamma to others it is for the sake of general instruction.  And I, Aggivessana, at the close of such a talk, steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide.
 

(MN I 249, Pali Text Society vol I p 303)

 

Why would he need to concentrate his mind subjectively in "that first characteristic of concentration" if he were already in a state of concentration? 

Suzuki said:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, link as previous)

 

Two different practices from two different traditions. They won't reconcile being that the illusory "path" is is very different. In the Mahamudra traditions "we" are all ALREADY enlightened and possibly only need to suddenly notice or realize that, there is therefore much pointing at our true nature from the beginning of teaching, and an emphasis of resting in that true nature. Where it comes to practices or orientation you really have to pick one or the other. 

 

On 7/27/2023 at 2:39 PM, Mark Foote said:

My attitude toward "preparatory practice"--it's all letting go of doing, and letting go of doing begins with one-pointedness of mind, which is an involuntary thing:

 

I'm with you here! Letting go of doing, efforting, and surrendering to things as they are is a lifelong practice of massive value. But:

 

On 7/27/2023 at 2:39 PM, Mark Foote said:

I have described the experience of “one-pointedness of mind” as the experience of the placement of attention by the movement of breath.  I would contend that the necessity of breath utilizes the placement of attention to coordinate activity all the time, but consciousness of the placement enables the experience of a singularity in the location of attention from moment to moment:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(Mindfulness of Death)

 

...what you emphasize here sounds like quite a lot of doing. My experience is that there AREN'T any mechanisms or systems here. There is just being with things as they are... which is completely letting go of all dualities. There is ultimately no movement, no breath, no moving of attention, no body, no... anything. 

 

On 7/27/2023 at 2:39 PM, Mark Foote said:

The “pureness of mind” I believe refers to the absence of any intention to act, not to the absence of thought.

 

I agree. Not an ABSENCE of thoughts (though the mind is very quiet) but an absence of THINKING PROCESS. By this specifically I mean what comes through the sixth sense door (Ayatana) which is the constant, iterative, feedback loop of the thinking mind. This stream of thoughts is NOT what we are. We know this because we can watch them in meditation. We can realize that what WE are is that which WATCHES the thoughts. Resting in this way individual thoughts arise of their own accord, like all other phenomena, but have no exalted status and are not taken to be "self" or "I". 

[old3bob]

that which is enlightened is always already enlightened, that form which is not can be lit up...

[manitou]

On 7/30/2023 at 9:04 AM, stirling said:

This feeling comes where there is an absence of "self". When the "self" drops out (and this happens in any dedicated meditators practice all the time) there is actualizing the myriad things as well as the "self". It isn't because of any particular intent, or idea or effort, or even of any particular focal point. To sit this way is to be without ANY specific focal point. This interconnectedness is with the undifferentiated everything if you examine it. 

 

 

Seems like 'life' gets this way too. Nice post!

[Mark Foote]

On 7/30/2023 at 9:04 AM, stirling said:

 

Quote

From the lecture on "Breathing", as before:

 

 So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.

The mind is “concentrated in the breathing” when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear–that’s the way I read what Suzuki is saying.
 

 

 

For the preparatory practice of Zazen, yes. 
 

I don't think Shunryu was talking about the preparatory practice of zazen, but you could be right.  Certainly, the idea of "how you should use your mind" sounds like volition is involved, and practice by the exercise of volition was his idea of "preparatory":
 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza)

 

 

"You feel as though you are doing something"--exercising the will to count the breath, to follow the breath.  

But he says "your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being."  The fundamental activity of the universal being doesn't sound like preparatory practice.  I am saying that when the presence of mind sustains the placement of attention by the movement of breath, the mind is concentrated in breathing.  How the mind should be used is quite clear.  The freedom that Gautama spoke of with regard to the ceasing of action of the body is palpable:

 

That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85)

 

"The absolute freedom" that Suzuki spoke of attaining--I think I'm content to find my way to "how you should use your mind is quite clear", as a way of living.

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I don't think Shunryu was talking about the preparatory practice of zazen, but you could be right.

 

Think about this: Is watching the breath or resting in emptiness the higher practice. Does the Buddha (or any other enlightened being) sit around all day watching their breath, or are they liberated and able to just "be"? In Zazen while watching the breath there is always losing concentration or dropping the object... what is there to drop in just being? 

 

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Certainly, the idea of "how you should use your mind" sounds like volition is involved, and practice by the exercise of volition was his idea of "preparatory":
 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza)

 

Maybe I don't understand your longing for the dropping of "volition" but it is RIGHT HERE in your post. The practice of shikantaza is THAT... the difference between an illusory person doing a practice and a universe actualizing enlightenment. Doesn't that sound good?

 

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

"You feel as though you are doing something"--exercising the will to count the breath, to follow the breath.  

But he says "your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being."  The fundamental activity of the universal being doesn't sound like preparatory practice.  I am saying that when the presence of mind sustains the placement of attention by the movement of breath, the mind is concentrated in breathing.  How the mind should be used is quite clear.

 

You are complicating it. I have training in both Zazen and Shikantaza. My interest (or ANY Soto Zen teacher's interest) is always in seeing if a student can do shikantaza FIRST, in the same way that a Nyingma teacher would see if a student could recognize Rigpa and just rest in it rather than watch thoughts, or one step down, breath. It is a GREAT place to start. Then we deepen practice, dropping doing and self. 

 

Do you have a teacher you can talk to about this? If you tell me where you are, I might be able to direct you to one. I personally know a couple of Kobun's students who are teachers if that is enticing. I mean this in kindness and sincerity.

 

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

The freedom that Gautama spoke of with regard to the ceasing of action of the body is palpable:

 

That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85)

 

This is Shikantaza embodied. What happens when there is no object? Liberation. The practice you are somehow unsure about is precisely the practice that embodies what you seek. It is beyond process, ligaments, doing, etc. Simple, clean, elegant, uncluttered. 

 

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

"The absolute freedom" that Suzuki spoke of attaining--I think I'm content to find my way to "how you should use your mind is quite clear", as a way of living.

 

Fantastic.  Right or wrong, you'll end up where you need to be.