Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, whocoulditbe? said:

F. Y. I. Baike is Chinese Wikipedia. It's user generated.

 

Thank you.  Most people like wikipedia as a first stop for beginning research on a topic.  And I'm a fan of crowd source / open source.  Often the quality is better.

 

Can you share your general impression of the 2 articles I linked to?

Edited August 19, 2023 by Daniel

[whocoulditbe?]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

Thank you.  Most people like wikipedia as a first stop for beginning research on a topic.  And I'm a fan of crowd source / open source.  Often the quality is better.

 

Can you share your general impression of the 2 articles I linked to?

I'm pretty much a beginner at Chinese, but I understand that Baidu Baike's articles are roughly as good as Wikipedia's outside of political topics, i.e., not very good. The benefit of Baike is that it has more content on Chinese topics, not that that content is better.

[Daniel]

On 8/19/2023 at 8:12 AM, whocoulditbe? said:

I'm pretty much a beginner at Chinese, but I understand that Baidu Baike's articles are roughly as good as Wikipedia's outside of political topics, i.e., not very good. The benefit of Baike is that it has more content on Chinese topics, not that that content is better.

 

Thank you,  the articles seem to be consistent on this topic with everything I'm reading about the etymology of "yue", and it seems to match what is brought in the DDJ including the radical "bamboo" at the bottom of the character.  Which, if the source is like wikipedia, should render credibility to the article.  Judging the entire site seems unfounded.  If it is crowd sourced, then each article has its own credibility.   In order to undermine the Baidu article, there would need to be some indication of an inconsistency with other sources.  I have found none.

 

Ultimately, the goal, I think, should be to understand what the DDJ intends to convey rather than rewrite it with an individual's desired revisionist interpretation.  This is something I personally have seen repeatedly in other religious contexts particularly in the western christian religion.  The indicator of revisionist intent, I have seen, is cherry picking then extreme reluctance to include context from the text itself.   And this should be the most important source for understanding what the characters 橐 籥 were intended to mean.  From what I am seeing, the DDJ intends 橐 籥 to be an open ended tube flute, of some sort.  There is something cool about the innovation of the box-blower, but, that doesn't change the original etymology of the characters.  Most people don't realize the earliest fire bellows was nothing more than a tube which is why I posted the pictures of the egyptian engraving.

 

All of this is consistent with the articles I posted.  What's inconsistent so far is the correction "it's not a bellows, that's a euphemism for masculine genitalia. It should be a womb."  A womb?  an incubator?  recieving a seed, holding it, and developing it over time?  Regardless of this being out of place in the DDJ 5, If this is true, I would very much like to see any chinese text of a similar vintage making that comparison.

 

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http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/94027.htm

 

Few Chinese people have heard of the yue, an ancient wind instrument that belonged to the flute family.

 

However, the enigma of the mysterious yue and the bone flutes seemed to explain one another in the eyes of Liu Zhengguo, a scholar of Chinese music history who is also skilled in playing the transverse bamboo flute (dizi) and its vertical twin the xiao. Liu is convinced that the gudi is, in fact, the yue.  "The gudi should be called guyue," said Liu, who is a professor in the music school of Shanghai Normal University. "It is the ancestor of the dizi and xiao."

 

https://www.mdbg.net/chinese/dictionary?page=chardict&cdcanoce=0&cdqchi=籥

 

 

 

https://baike.baidu.hk/item/籥/7002680

 

籥, a third-level character in Chinese, [3] pronounced as 籥 (yuè), is a mysterious braided wind instrument in ancient China, which is related to the origin of the rhythmic scale and even the source of the Chinese ritual and music civilization. Its shape is recorded in historical documents since the Han Dynasty. It is a flute-like "single-pipe" musical instrument. It is the ancestor of Chinese flute-like instruments. In folk.

 

https://www.mdbg.net/chinese/dictionary?page=chardict&cdcanoce=0&cdqchi=橐

 

 

 

https://baike.baidu.com/item/橐/5874987

 

橐, a second-level Chinese character, [2] pronounced as 橐 (tuó), refers to a pocket, and also refers to a blower in ancient times.

 

3. An ancient blowing fire blower: "with furnace ~, ~ with cowhide".

 

Here's something fun:  Notice that he discovers by oblique/indirect blowing the fire bellows becomes a musical instrument.  This oblique blowing is something highlighted in the article above quoting the Chinese scholar of music history.

 

 

 

So... what's happening with 橐 籥 in DDJ 5?  Isn't this another example of the dissimilar being brought together?  A fire-blower which is also a musical instrument?  Is it wrong to say this is the Dao?  I vote no.  I think that is what the DDJ brings consistently which means @manitou is 100% correct.

 

Edited November 4 by Daniel

[Cobie]

 

 

On 19/08/2023 at 6:17 PM, Daniel said:

... A womb?  … in the DDJ 5 … I would … like to see any chinese text of a similar vintage making that comparison. …

 

DDJ 6 (MWD B: 谷 神 不 死  是 胃 … gu3 shen2 bu4 si3 shi4 wei4 …). 胃 too is a euphemism for ‘womb’.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 19/08/2023 at 1:17 AM, Daniel said:

... The DDJ 5 seems to be focused on … not … nor the gender designation. 

 

Throughout the whole of the DDJ, it uses the female as the metaphor.

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

DDJ 6 (MWD B: 谷 神 不 死  是 胃 … gu3 shen2 bu4 si3 shi4 wei4 …). 胃 too is a euphemism for ‘womb’.

 

First, I think it would be good to know what you think is indicated by a "womb".  I understand that as an incubator.  A vessel that holds a seed and developes it.  But I do not think that fits at all with the DDJ 5 nor 6.  Perhaps you are understanding it differently?  Or perhaps all that you are saying is, "it's not male and pointy"?

 

Second, DDJ 6?  This is the version I am looking at.  谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤.  - Source

Are we using the same version?  You're saying the 6th character is 胃, I'm seeing it as 謂.  They appear similar, but, are they?  Since you still haven't brought your own translation of the remainder of DDJ 5 which seems to clarify the meaning of  橐 籥, I'll go ahead and do my best to translate DDJ 6 and maybe you will correct it using whatever resources you choose to use.

 

谷 Valley 神 [of the] spirit 不死 immortal，

是 Truly 謂 _______ 玄 mysterious 牝 female 。

玄 Mysterious 牝 female 之 she is a 門 gate，

是 Truly 謂 _______ 天地 heaven-and-earth 根 roots/rooting。

綿綿 Streaming-continuously 若  seems 存 to issue forth，

用 Therefore 之 she [is] 不勤 effortless.

 

So, DDJ 6 is describing a valley, which is continuous, a gate, which is long and slender.

謂 is generally translated as "named" or "called" which fits nicely.  At the very least, the stanzas need a verb, don't they?

 

...truly it is named, 玄牝, lady-of-mystery.

...truly it is named, 天地根, root-of-heaven-and-earth.

 

or

 

...truly womb lady-of-mystery.

...truly womb root-of-heaven-and earth.

 

Is a womb streaming-continuously?  綿 is wool or silk.

Is a womb like a root coming off the bottom of a plant?   根 are literally roots.

Is a womb like a valley?

Is a womb like a gate?

 

A womb incubates then in a sudden furious ordeal delivers with contractions.  That's not what's happening here.  This is smooth and effortless.

 

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

Throughout the whole of the DDJ, it uses the female as the metaphor.

 

The challenge is:

 

On 8/19/2023 at 9:17 AM, Daniel said:

What's inconsistent so far is the correction "it's not a bellows, that's a euphemism for masculine genitalia. It should be a womb."  A womb?  an incubator?  recieving a seed, holding it, and developing it over time?  Regardless of this being out of place in the DDJ 5, If this is true, I would very much like to see any chinese text of a similar vintage making that comparison

 

A chinese text of this vintage making the comparison that you made:  The bellows is a euphemism for 'willie', and  橐 籥 is a euphemism for a womb.

 

From what I'm seeing, there is maybe some feminine imagery in 4 verses.  But this depends on what is considered feminine.  Are we talking about open/closed?  full/empty?  pointy/round?  provider/reciever?  My understanding is the philosophy brought in the DDJ is about coexisting, coequal, codependent opposites.  But I'm not seeing anything womb-like in these descriptions.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

 

19 hours ago, Daniel said:

…  Are we using the same version? …

 

 

23 hours ago, Cobie said:

… MWD B …

 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

On 8/20/2023 at 2:24 PM, Cobie said:

MWD B

 

What's that?  What does it stand for?  Is there a place I can look at it online?  If there are different versions, did you choose this one for a reason?

[Cobie]

9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

What's that?  What does it stand for?  Is there a place I can look at it online?  If there are different versions, did you choose this one for a reason?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts
 

http://www.daoisopen.com/downloads/CC6.pdf 

 

I always use the oldest available script. In the line used, MWD A had 1 gap but is otherwise equal to B.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

34 minutes ago, Cobie said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts
 

http://www.daoisopen.com/downloads/CC6.pdf 

 

I always use the oldest available script. In the line used, MWD A had 1 gap but is otherwise equal to B.

 

 

 

OK, thank you.  This is what I found in the wiki link:

 

The Chinese characters in the silk texts are often only fragments of the characters used in later traditional versions. Many characters are formed by combining two simpler characters: one indicating a general category of meaning, and the other to guide pronunciation. Where the traditional texts have both components, the silk texts frequently give only the phonetic half of the character. There are several hypotheses to explain this...

 

If the silk texts only give partial characters, that explains why you're seeing 胃, and I'm seeing it as 謂.

 

In addition to partial characters mentioned above, the two-silk texts sometimes use characters different from those in later versions. This is similar to the English "She flowered the table" compared with "She floured the table", and the older version provides insight into a text's original meaning.

 

This encourages me to compare the silk texts to the others.  I see some tools in the other link to help in that pursuit.  Thanks again,

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

… If the silk texts only give partial characters, that explains why you're seeing 胃, and I'm seeing it as 謂.

(my highlights) 

Not “only”; the wiki link says ‘often’. 
 

Possibly “that explains” it, but not necessarily. One cannot exclude the possibility that 胃 was not a partial character. It is possible 謂 was a later change made to the text.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Not “only”; the wiki link says ‘often’. 
 

Possibly “that explains” it, but not necessarily. One cannot exclude the possibility that 胃 was not a partial character. It is possible 謂 was a later change made to the text.

 

Sorry.  'often' not 'only'.

 

The way to proceed for this specific verse is:

 

1)  confirm what you mean by 'womb'

2)  see if it fits in the verse

 

谷 Valley 神 [of the] spirit 不死 immortal，

是 Truly 謂/胃 _______ 玄 mysterious 牝 female 。

玄 Mysterious 牝 female 之 she is a 門 gate，

是 Truly 謂/胃 _______ 天地 heaven-and-earth 根 roots/rooting。

綿綿 Streaming-continuously 若  seems 存 to issue forth，

用 Therefore 之 she [is] 不勤 effortless.

 

Feel free to cross out and replace any of the translation choices I made, ok?  This is just a first attempt to facilitate making some forward progress.

 

[Cobie]

16 hours ago, Daniel said:

…  謂/胃 … 

 

Also:  -/之 ; -/呵 ; -/亓 ; 勤/堇 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

Also:  -/之 ; -/呵 ; -/亓 ; 勤/堇 

 

 

 

Any other variants that are important to consider elsewhere in the verse?

[Cobie]

Re. 玄 牝 玄 牝  

 

I use the Henricks mawangdui book 

https://www.amazon.com/Lao-Tzu-Translation-Discovered-Ma-wang-tui/dp/0345370996 

Henricks gives the MWD characters not as 玄 牝 玄 牝 but as 玄 = 牝 = 

And on page 94 he says these ‘= marks’ appear to be ‘ditto’ marks in the original.

 

Same with 綿綿 . Henricks gives the characters as 綿 = 
 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Re. 玄 牝 玄 牝  

 

I use the Henricks mawangdui book 

https://www.amazon.com/Lao-Tzu-Translation-Discovered-Ma-wang-tui/dp/0345370996 

Henricks gives the MWD characters not as 玄 牝 玄 牝 but as 玄 = 牝 = 

And on page 94 he says these ‘= marks’ appear to be ‘ditto’ marks in the original.

 

Same with 綿綿 . Henricks gives the characters as 綿 = 
 

 

 

From the Hendricks book on DDJ 6: no signficant differences are identified between these versions and the standard text.

 

 

Here's DDJ 5:  The choice here is bellows which is somehow empty but inexhaustible while fullness of learning is frequently exhausted.  Which I can confirm.  I feel like it's naptime.    Or maybe tea-time.

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Henricks gives the MWD characters not as 玄 牝 玄 牝 but as 玄 = 牝 = 

And on page 94 he says these ‘= marks’ appear to be ‘ditto’ marks in the original.

 

Same with 綿綿 . Henricks gives the characters as 綿 = 

I was talking about the characters. 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

9 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Henricks gives the MWD characters not as 玄 牝 玄 牝 but as 玄 = 牝 = 

And on page 94 he says these ‘= marks’ appear to be ‘ditto’ marks in the original.

 

Same with 綿綿 . Henricks gives the characters as 綿 =

 

It looks like Hendricks lists this as significant in chapters 38 and 71.

 

The translation chosen by Hendricks for "綿 =" does not deviate from the standard.  The issue is "womb".  It's not represented in either DDJ5 nor DDJ6 in this author whom you have chosen.  It doesn't mean you're wrong to assert it.  Although, it is, so far, completely unsupported, and there isn't justification of any kind to correct someone else using the word 'bellows' because the movement of air (emptiness) is included in the verse.

 

Here's a picture of the "=" sign for those who are curious what we're talking about:

 

[Cobie]

page xviii, “The Way in a sense is like a great womb …”

page xix, “… Tao is a feminine reality and a maternal reality ...”

 

Thanks for posting the characters.  
 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

Woohoo!  We're getting somewhere!  Hendrick's commentary says the dao is a womb... but also says it's not that simple.   Now I can finally see where all of this is coming from, the chapters that are in focus are listed!

[Cobie]

@Daniel 

 

Re.Kroll dictionary - 

it’s useful to read the intro; it gives abbreviations used that narrow down the sort of usage of words e.g. the time frame.
 

~~~<>~~~
Re. 橐籥 

~~~<>~~~

The posts you made re. its ‘flute’ meaning are very similar to stuff I posted in my ‘bellows’ thread on OD (before changing to wind box).

Kroll lists 橐籥 as being ‘one word’ meaning ‘bellows’. 
Two character words are rare in Classical Chinese, but they do exist. If both characters have a shared meaning, this then usually is the meaning of the combined characters. Kroll lists (amongst other meanings) ‘bellows’ for both 橐 and for 籥 .

The Kroll meaning for 橐籥 : bellows, especially euphemism of the inexhaustible variety of life amidst heaven and earth. 
 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

@cobie,

 

Thank you, that's good advice.  My copy of the kroll dictionary arrived on Friday afternoon. 

 

Any others which you consider required reading?

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

Nice one. I hope you will enjoy the Kroll.  
 

For grammar, I use Van Norden : 

https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/f/classical-chinese-for-everyone/9200000115345967/  
It’s mostly still too difficult for me, but way more understandable than anything else I looked at. 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 22/08/2023 at 8:40 PM, Daniel said:

Any other variants that are important to consider elsewhere in the verse?

 

Note the first character. There’s no 谷 gu3 (Kroll 1. valley), but 浴 yu4 (Kroll 2. swoop and soar, of birds)

 

On 22/08/2023 at 11:44 PM, Daniel said:

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Note the first character. There’s no 谷 gu3 (Kroll 1. valley), but 浴 yu4 (Kroll 2. swoop and soar, of birds)

 

Just so we're looking at the same thing, I'm seeing 'yu', and the character displayed in the screenshot on pg. 573, right column, 2nd from the top.  2015 edition, Kroll dictionary of classical and medieval chinese, Brill.

 

Is that what you're looking at too?