Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[Giles]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Enlightenment is a loaded word, I much rather use Self-realization

 

 

Using the term Self-realisatin certainly works OK me too (although, unlike you apparently, I dont experience any emotional charge associated with the word enlightenment). 😊

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Brahman is not an object - hence, it can't be experienced.

 

 

So Brahman is ignorant of its own nature, which is SatChitAnanda (at least according to the basics of Advaita Vedanta)?

 

[dwai]

22 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

Using the term Self-realisatin certainly works OK me too (although, unlike you apparently, I dont experience any emotional charge associated with the word enlightenment). 😊

More light to you 

22 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

So Brahman is ignorant of its own nature, which is SatChitAnanda (at least according to the basics of Advaita Vedanta)?

 

The paradox of paradoxes. Before realization, it seems like Brahman is ignorant of its nature - everything seems so difficult, so complicated. After realization, it becomes clear that there was never any ignorance in the first place - you were always Brahman. 

 

[Giles]

58 minutes ago, dwai said:

The paradox of paradoxes. Before realization, it seems like Brahman is ignorant of its nature - everything seems so difficult, so complicated. After realization, it becomes clear that there was never any ignorance in the first place - you were always Brahman. 

 

 

That's interesting dwai.

 

Before "my" (impersonal) Self-realization (of nirvikalpa samadhi), everything was trucking along just fine for me, as it does for many other unenlightened people.

 

Self-realization made not an iota of difference to the enjoyment or to the practicalities of life for this jiva.

 

For me and, I've repeatedly discovered, for many other people happiness without cause is just our default setting and, I've also discovered that it's pretty easy for anyone to access that default setting without bothering with the hassle of meditation, Self-inquiry etc., etc.

 

And, FWIW, it never seemed to me, before or afterwards that Brahman was ignorant of its own true nature.

 

The revelations for me were just that enlightenment is entirely impersonal, that Atman is indeed Brahman and that the fabric of creation is woven from Love.

 

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

That's interesting dwai.

 

Before "my" (impersonal) Self-realization (of nirvikalpa samadhi), everything was trucking along just fine for me, as it does for many other unenlightened people.

 

Self-realization made not an iota of difference to the enjoyment or to the practicalities of life for this jiva.

What do you mean by nirvikalpa samadhi? I’m curious because nirvikalpa samadhi by itself doesn’t seem to produce the permanent perspective shift that I’m referring to. Before the realization occurred,  I’ve entered nirvikalpa samadhi many times. Maybe this is a topic for discussion in PMs if you don’t want to discuss in public here. 

20 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

For me and, I've repeatedly discovered, for many other people happiness without cause is just our default setting and, I've also discovered that it's pretty easy for anyone to access that default setting without bothering with the hassle of meditation, Self-inquiry etc., etc.

very interesting - I can see how that is possible for some (who have had prior preparation), but mostly it seems some foundational work is needed - more to prepare the mind. Most people have scattered and/or polluted minds, so clarity is lacking. 

20 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

And, FWIW, it never seemed to me, before or afterwards that Brahman was ignorant of its own true nature.

Oh I didn’t specifically mean you, but many do have that question - it typically arises in those who don’t have faith or grounding in the tradition. 

20 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

The revelations for me were just that enlightenment is entirely impersonal, that Atman is indeed Brahman and that the fabric of creation is woven from Love.

 

So beautiful and true  

[Giles]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

What do you mean by nirvikalpa samadhi?

 

 

Nirvikalpa:

 

https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/translate?search=nirvikalpa&dir=au

 

Samadhi is the eighth and final step on the path of yoga, as defined by Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Giles said:

 

Nirvikalpa:

 

https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/translate?search=nirvikalpa&dir=au

 

Samadhi is the eighth and final step on the path of yoga, as defined by Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras

 

Curious if the nirvikalpa samadhi happened spontaneously or were some preparatory practices necessary in your case? 

Edited July 25 by dwai

[forestofclarity]

I heard Swartz on a podcast (BATGAP?) talking that, because he was enlightened, he just sat around all day watching TV and there was really no point in doing anything else. I sort of lost interest after that. 

 

Having said that, it does appear to me that there is a non-omnipresent bliss (as an object) that tends to manifest in the waking state as one becomes more relaxed and aligned. Almost like the anandamayakosha oozes into the waking state. 

 

 

[dwai]

25 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I heard Swartz on a podcast (BATGAP?) talking that, because he was enlightened, he just sat around all day watching TV and there was really no point in doing anything else. I sort of lost interest after that. 

I’d recommend reading his autobiographical book called “Mystic by default”. Very interesting western “autobiography of a yogi”  

Quote

 

Having said that, it does appear to me that there is a non-omnipresent bliss (as an object) that tends to manifest in the waking state as one becomes more relaxed and aligned. Almost like the anandamayakosha oozes into the waking state. 

 

 

Yes, but the system adjusts to it. It’s always present but in my experience it becomes “just another experience”  — but I suppose different minds can process it differently…

 

Oh, but I don’t think it is non-omnipresent. It is, as you said, the Anandamaya Kosha - but one just becomes more aware of it. 

Edited July 25 by dwai

[Giles]

13 hours ago, dwai said:

Curious if the nirvikalpa samadhi happened spontaneously or were some preparatory practices necessary in your case? 

 

 

Basically, it took about 18 months of ancient traditional meditation practices, which involved spending about 20 hours per week on the cushion.

 

Prior to that I spent about 6 months doing preparatory practices (breath and mantra meditation) plus switching to a vegetarian diet and following the yamas & the niyamas.

 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

Basically, it took about 18 months of ancient traditional meditation practices, which involved spending about 20 hours per week on the cushion.

 

Prior to that I spent about 6 months doing preparatory practices (breath and mantra meditation) plus switching to a vegetarian diet and following the yamas & the niyamas.

 

Looks like that did a lot to cleanse your mind - it’s a good way to do so. 
 

Did you have any contemplative practices to go with it too? 

[Giles]

34 minutes ago, dwai said:

Looks like that did a lot to cleanse your mind - it’s a good way to do so.

 

 

Luckily, I'd had a pretty good "mind cleanse" prior to encountering the cult that taught these practices. 🤣

 

36 minutes ago, dwai said:

Did you have any contemplative practices to go with it too? 

 

 

No. I developed some later myself.

 

[dwai]

26 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

Luckily, I'd had a pretty good "mind cleanse" prior to encountering the cult that taught these practices. 🤣

That sounds a bit harsh. Do you not appreciate what you learned from this "cult"?

26 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

No. I developed some later myself.

 

Very cool. So, did your realization stabilize after you went through that process?

[Neirong]

13 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I heard Swartz on a podcast (BATGAP?) talking that, because he was enlightened, he just sat around all day watching TV and there was really no point in doing anything else. I sort of lost interest after that. 

 

That is a common pitfall; a whole chase of enlightenment is a kind of self-devouring abyss. What is more, people reach the point where they stop advancing. It is even more spectacular that people justify the stop with end points in practice and believe those exist. "Last stage of Yoga", "End goal of Buddhism", If bliss and positive feelings/sensations/emotions are all you experience in the end, what is even the purpose?

 

People cannot see the wood for the trees. The true value of cultivation practices are entirely lost. Sensations are becoming a trap, muddling the mind and cultivation perspective.

 

 You can call your attainment whatever you want, but terms, titles, don't matter; what matters are practical results/capabilities. Can you instantly shift your energy and consciousness to another realm? Can you perceive 4-5-8-12 dimensions? What work are you capable of doing with your "enlightened" mind? How potent exactly is your mental field?

 

Can we take an "enlightened being" and see if he can be productive in any meaningful work - field research? I guess not, why would an "Enlightened" being who reached eternal bliss and end stage of Yoga path be bothered doing some kind of petty work.

[Giles]

38 minutes ago, dwai said:

Very cool. So, did your realization stabilize after you went through that process?

 

 

Of course not...

 

It strikes me that you and I have very different experiences because mine is consistent with:

 

Beyond caste, creed, family or lineage,
That which is without name and form, beyond merit and demerit,
That which is beyond space, time and sense-objects,
You are that, God ItSelf.

 

~  Vivekachudamani ~

 

And yours appears to me to be something else entirely.

 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

Of course not...

 

It strikes me that you and I have very different experiences because mine is consistent with:

 

Beyond caste, creed, family or lineage,
That which is without name and form, beyond merit and demerit,
That which is beyond space, time and sense-objects,
You are that, God ItSelf.

 

~  Vivekachudamani ~

 

And yours appears to me to be something else entirely.

 

 I smile because it seems so familiar. How long have you been this way, if you don't mind my asking? 

[Giles]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

 I smile because it seems so familiar. How long have you been this way, if you don't mind my asking? 

 

 

About 40 years.

 

[dwai]

24 minutes ago, Neirong said:

 

That is a common pitfall; a whole chase of enlightenment is a kind of self-devouring abyss. What is more, people reach the point where they stop advancing. It is even more spectacular that people justify the stop with end points in practice and believe those exist. "Last stage of Yoga", "End goal of Buddhism", If bliss and positive feelings/sensations/emotions are all you experience in the end, what is even the purpose?

That should be the starting point of living in freedom. It varies with individual personalities - realization doesn't homogenize the individual personalities. Some will dedicate their lives to service of others (bodhisattvas), some will withdraw from society for extended periods of time (recluses), others will live out their lives as normal people, but with total clarity and without any fear. 

24 minutes ago, Neirong said:

People cannot see the wood for the trees. The true value of cultivation practices are entirely lost. Sensations are becoming a trap, muddling the mind and cultivation perspective.

Interesting. What in your mind is the true value of cultivation?

24 minutes ago, Neirong said:

 

 You can call your attainment whatever you want, but terms, titles, don't matter; what matters are practical results/capabilities. Can you instantly shift your energy and consciousness to another realm? Can you perceive 4-5-8-12 dimensions? What work are you capable of doing with your "enlightened" mind? How potent exactly is your mental field?

What work was the pre-enlightenment mind trained to do? 

24 minutes ago, Neirong said:

Can we take an "enlightened being" and see if he can be productive in any meaningful work - field research? I guess not, why would an "Enlightened" being who reached eternal bliss and end stage of Yoga path be bothered doing some kind of petty work.

Why not? There are plenty of such beings who spent the rest of their lives in the selfless service of humanity. 

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

About 40 years.

 

Spectacular. 

[Giles]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Spectacular. 

 

 

Just to clarify: this is perfectly normal for many people.

 

It is not an attainment of any sort.

 

It has nothing whatsoever to to with me (Giles).

 

Furthermore, (albeit merely IMO/IME) most people pursuing a spiritual path would be infinitely better off if they dropped the goal of Self-realization, moksha, etc. along with the philosophical masturbation that almost invariably accompanies it and instead invested a few bucks in the new-age author Marci Shimoff's book Happy For No Reason.

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Giles said:

 

Just to clarify: this is perfectly normal for many people.

 

It is not an attainment of any sort.

I 100% agree - it just unveils what is always present. I sat and laughed at the irony for a long time when I realized that. 

1 hour ago, Giles said:

It has nothing whatsoever to to with me (Giles).

Of course  

1 hour ago, Giles said:

Furthermore, (albeit merely IMO/IME) most people pursuing a spiritual path would be infinitely better off if they dropped the goal of Self-realization, moksha, etc. along with the philosophical masturbation that almost invariably accompanies it and instead invested a few bucks in the new-age author Marci Shimoff's book Happy For No Reason.

 

That is easier said than done, though I agree with you wholeheartedly in principle. I'd not heard of Marci Shimoff's book - I'll check it out. 

[Giles]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

I 100% agree - it just unveils what is always present. I sat and laughed at the irony for a long time when I realized that. 

 

 

😊👍🏻

 

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

Of course  

 

😊👍🏻

 

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

That is easier said than done, though I agree with you wholeheartedly in principle.

 

 

😊👍🏻

 

Yes. I struggle with that myself, as evidenced by the fact that I'm still posting on a "spiritual" forum and I'm reading Forrest Knutson's latest book ATM. 🤣

 

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

I'd not heard of Marci Shimoff's book - I'll check it out. 

 

I only stumbled across it recently myself & I was horrified to discover afterwards that she's one of the prime movers behind The Secret. Had I known that at the outset I wouldn't have bothered even to give it a second glance.

 

[dwai]

34 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

😊👍🏻

 

 

😊👍🏻

 

 

😊👍🏻

 

Yes. I struggle with that myself, as evidenced by the fact that I'm still posting on a "spiritual" forum and I'm reading Forrest Knutson's latest book ATM. 🤣

It's okay - it is all part of the journey/life.

 

34 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

I only stumbled across it recently myself & I was horrified to discover afterwards that she's one of the prime movers behind The Secret. Had I known that at the outset I wouldn't have bothered even to give it a second glance.

 

I checked her out a little while ago and learned about her involvement in that movement. I suspect that she is recirculating old wisdom in a new package. But then again, given her background in meditation, etc, it seems inevitable.

 

This is another irony about realization - once it happens, everything becomes very simple, and there is no reason to do anything to uncover it. 

However, the process seems daunting and challenging for those in the before stage, i.e., if people even recognize what is missing in their lives. This is evidenced by countless posts, and debates/arguments that ensue on fora such as TDB. The usual rejoinders I've seen are "If it is so easy, everyone should be _______" (fill in the blank with your preferred word to describe the "realization" event). 

 

What I've found is that different people have different psycho-spiritual predilections. Their background (culture, society, family, etc.) is part of it. And a deeper one (maybe genetic or karmic). There are very good theories to explain those differences. There are time-tested practices to deal with the differences based on said theories (e.g., karma yoga, raja yoga, bhakti yoga, jnana yoga - to represent specific ways to approach things).  That is the power of traditional wisdom systems. 

[Giles]

22 minutes ago, dwai said:

It's okay - it is all part of the journey/life.

 

 

I'm fully aware that it's "OK". If it wasn't, I wouldn't be doing it.

 

24 minutes ago, dwai said:

This is another irony about realization - once it happens, everything becomes very simple, and there is no reason to do anything to uncover it. 

 

 

That's certainly not my experience. Moksha is completely impersonal, as I've previously stated, several times.

 

[dwai]

33 minutes ago, Giles said:

That's certainly not my experience. Moksha is completely impersonal, as I've previously stated, several times.

 

Well, moksha is not an experience, so it being either impersonal or personal, is a moot point. 

[forestofclarity]

Swami S recently did a presentation on enlightenment recently, and made an important distinction between an initial realization and full blown enlightenment. The first 28 minutes covers this.