Contradictory Behaviour of Modern People

[Nungali]

On 7/9/2023 at 8:46 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

On one level the relationship regards causality in irrefutable

 

But deduction to causality is a bit narrow in my opinion (due to the fact that karma can be inter-generational). Somebody else can do a crappy thing, and you can be on the end of that...

 

 

Im not  all that  sure of your background, but are you familar with what happens when conciousness does a 180?

 

( I  cant split your post, my replies in I and B ) :

 

- a curious turn of phrase .... I suppose  it leaves brain matter 'skid marks' on the inside of the skull .

 

But that "person" when removed from that which makes them "them" would have an extremely difficult time being smug and happy when being on the receiving end of their own actions.

 

of course, perhaps even moreso .  I was talking about justifying their own actions , or not even bothering to justify ..... you do realise some have no concept of the dynamic you suggest... justification ... but if done to them ; rage  .... the two experiences, to them, are unrelated .

 

Im sure, given you background you are most familiar with death process (conceptually speaking if not practically).

 

Yes; philosophically, both personal and  via study of other cultures conceptions , as a Priest (for a time ) .... including  special  funeral rights  and  3 major  NDE's .

 

 

An important point here being karma creates those states  (though both are temporary, in a manner of speaking)

 

?  Karma , or desire ? 

 

 

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

careful, that's a New Age thinking. 

 

That aint my source on it .  And again, I point out , the New Age view relates to  reward and punishments , dont take my word for it , ask around ( your new age friends, that is ) .   Not like my 'take ' at all actually .

 

My source is  from multiple cultures cross time and location , my own studies and initiations, my life and death experiences (including 10 years working in a hospital, including the mortuary)  . Various practices , including potent Buddhist  practices that I did on high dose (old school pure ) LSD  and communications from the world beyond . ..  when not on LSD  

 

So, what is the source of your viewpoint on this ?

 

personal memory/experience.

 

Evaluated against what ?

 

How did Buddha confirm that reincarnation exist ?

 

He confirmed it ?

 

 

 

[Indiken]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

That aint my source on it . 

 

It does not matter who's source.

 

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And again, I point out , the New Age view relates to  reward and punishments , dont take my word for it , ask around ( your new age friends, that is ) .  Not like my 'take ' at all actually .

 

 

I don't have "New Age" friends.

Rewards and punishments is idea of Christianity (hell/heaven).

I won't take your word for it. 

 

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So, what is the source of your viewpoint on this ?

 

 

 

Channelings.

 

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Evaluated against what ?

 

I did not understand the question.

 

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He confirmed it ?

 

I don't know.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Indiken

[Shadow_self]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

of course, perhaps even moreso .  I was talking about justifying their own actions , or not even bothering to justify ..... you do realise some have no concept of the dynamic you suggest... justification ... but if done to them ; rage  .... the two experiences, to them, are unrelated .

 

It is a curious thing then, that when conciousness is detached from the senses, and the faeces thrown hits the rubber wall and bounces back, and the person is not longer wearing the "protective gear", what tends to happen

 

Of course this is a realisation that for most does not come in life, only in death.

 

But there are some  who have straddled that line, be it via practice, or a series of unfortuate events (or both)

 

The "insult to injury" is only all the more severe due to the realisation they've created their own suffering

 

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Yes; philosophically, both personal and  via study of other cultures conceptions , as a Priest (for a time ) .... including  special  funeral rights  and  3 major  NDE's .

 

Then the above is clearly something you are more than familar with

 

 

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?  Karma , or desire ? 

 

 

Ohh now we are getting to the tricky questions arent we  

 

Consider the difference between a person who wants food only because they need to sustain their life, having shed all notions of pleasure associated vs a person who delights and craves food for various reasons

 

My take on it would be as follows

 

The latter gives weight and substance to the former, however, not all that plays out during the reincarnation process is desire alone, only a rather important facet. 

 

However, you are touching on a most important stage, and I sincerely hope my answer doesnt take away from that.

[Creation]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:12 AM, VELLY said:

I am often fascinated by the behavior of people in the modern world. There are numerous contradictions in their actions and beliefs. For instance, I have a friend who holds a government position but engages in corrupt practices. Surprisingly, he also donates a significant amount of money. He has developed his own set of values, which can be seen as contradictory. He argues that donating the money earned through corruption absolves him of any wrongdoing, as the act of giving back mitigates the harm caused. I find this way of thinking truly astonishing.

This example is just one among many. Recently, I had a conversation with a friend about adultery, and he expressed the view that it is wrong to initiate such actions. However, if a woman approaches or shows interest, he believes it would be acceptable to engage in such behavior. These double standards are prevalent in various aspects of people's lives. Many individuals who appear to be devoutly religious or spiritual also struggle with strong desires and lust. People have a knack for justifying their own questionable behaviors.

I must admit that I, too, have found myself in conflicting situations at times. This constant exposure to contradictory behavior has left me thoroughly confused. Is morality not an integral part of spirituality? Can a person with low moral standards still consider themselves highly spiritual? 

I don't know what you mean by "corrupt practices", but I've heard that in many parts of the world, bribery is the norm.  If you want something done, there is a gatekeeper that you need to give money to.  This would be considered "corruption" where I am from, but could I call it corruption in a place where it is just how it has always worked?  I don't know.  As for adultery, I once saw a book that was all about the cultural differences in what was considered adultery.  Where I am from, sleeping with someone other than your spouse, period.  But apparently, other cultures have their own norms about when sleeping with someone other than your spouse doesn't count as adultery.  Some examples I remember were if you pay for it, if you were drunk, or if you were on vacation.  So are these other cultures corrupt?  I don't know.  At any rate, none of these questions or behaviors are unique to people in the "modern world".

 

On the other hand, there are spiritual groups that think eating meat is grossly immoral, and that anyone who thinks they are a spiritual person but eats meat is kidding themself.  Similarly, every traditional religion says any sex outside of marriage is immoral, period, even in what I would call a committed, exclusive relationship, and that if you are having sex outside of marriage and think you are a spiritual person, again, you are kidding yourself. 

 

I don't mean to imply moral relativism here, I'm just pointing out that insisting your moral standards are the right ones and everyone else's are wrong and corrupt is not something to do casually.  I am quite curious about what morality might be beyond cultural construction and convention.  At the very least, everyone has to live with their own conscience.  Then there are considerations of cause and effect, and of social harmony to consider. 

[Zorro Dantes]

Highly spiritual! just low level by way of content😉 Contrarians tend to develop a lot of low level spiritual/physical achievements. That are supernatural in scope… that’s like super human strength type feats or abilities to call spirits for gambling purposes and such least  by my folks perspective.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Zorro Dantes

[Mark Foote]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:22 AM, VELLY said:

That is all true @Gerard. However the question remains : 

If morality is subjective, then how come karma ( or laws of universe) work?

 

 

 

Where there have been deeds, Ananda, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the deeds. Where there has been speech–where there has been thought, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the speech–in the thought.

 

Either we of ourselves, Ananda, plan those planned deeds conditioned by ignorance, whence so caused arises personal weal and woe, or others plan those planned deeds that we do conditioned on ignorance, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Either they are done deliberately, or we do them unwittingly. Thence both ways arises personal weal and woe.

 

So also is it where there has been speech, where there has been thought. Either we plan, speaking, thinking deliberately, or others plan, so that we speak, think unwittingly. Thence arises personal weal and woe. In these six cases ignorance is followed after.

 

But from the utter fading away and cessation of ignorance, Ananda, those deeds are not, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Neither is that speech, nor that thought. As field they are not; as base they are not; as wherewithal they are not; as occasion they are not, that so conditioned there might arise personal weal and woe.
 

(SN II text ii, 36, Pali Text Society SN Vol II p. 31-32)

 

 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.
 

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place.
 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.
 

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45)

 

The common thread above is intention, "determinate thought" in action.

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 294)

 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.” 

 

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society IV pg 85)

 

 

And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.

 

(SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4)

 

 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.
 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

 

 

The ceasing of ("determinate thought" in) inbreathing and outbreathing is the ceasing of the activities of deed, the ceasing of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving is the ceasing of the activities of mind.

All that's required for mastery is the ceasing of the activities of deed, not the ceasing of the activities of mind--at least, that's what I see when I look around.  Gautama, however, attained the cessation of feeling and perceiving, and his insight regarding the conditional genesis of suffering came out of that attainment.  He was also one of the most remarkable ascetics of his age, before he turned to meditation, and studied under two of the foremost masters of concentration of his day and succeeded in mastering their teaching, before he surpassed them.

One day my zazen got up and walked around, without any exercise of "determinate thought".  I was a long way from regular "one-pointedness of mind" in my practice, a long way from the regular cessation of ("determinate thought" in) in-breathing and out-breathing in my practice.  That's coming around now when I sit, but the experience is only occasional in my daily living.

After zazen walked around, I tried to get zazen to act in every situation, mostly without success.  Along the way I discovered that in some instances, I could disconnect from intention and realize action, but that my action actually followed from my most heart-felt belief, rather than from what Dogen termed "the inconceivable" ("Genjo Koan", "although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent").

Therein lies at least a partial answer to your question, I think.  It's quite possible to be a modern master of concentration, to be practiced at "making self-surrender the object of thought" and "laying hold of one-pointedness of mind", without having experienced the cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving, without having an extreme background in asceticism (making self-denial almost to the point of the abandonment of life itself familiar).  And heart-felt belief can emerge as action in such a one, action that takes place without the overt exercise of volition--witness Kyozan Joshu Sasaki at Bald Mountain, pleading "ishinashini" as the source of his groping (“my hand just moves. It’s will-less").

I don't expect to attain the cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving, nor to attempt to sustain life on a piece of dung the size of a pea every two weeks.  I try to be careful and diligent with regard to my beliefs, but I'm also the creature of my age and my society in that regard, to some extent.  




 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Apech]

On 7/8/2023 at 2:19 PM, steve said:

 

My impression is that the vast majority of people identifying with being religious or spiritual are using their religion as an excuse, a balm, or an antidote for immoral and unethical behavior. In fact, some religions are inherently and irrevocably immoral, manipulating masses, creating slaves, and turning populations into fodder for geo-political objectives - christianity in the 21st century united states is a model for this travesty. I feel that morality is not an integral part of spirituality and the majority of folks I have encountered in my lifetime who consider themselves highly spiritual fail miserably by my personal measures of morality. I hold morality to be an individual standard, influenced by all forms of conditioning (religious, societal, cultural, parental, educational, etc...), but ultimately an individually determined standard. Skillful and dedicated spiritual practice can and does lead to a perspective in many people which is highly moral, this is spontaneous and unconditional empathy, but that is the exception rather than the rule in my limited experience. 

 

@steve you don't usually come across as quite so jaded as this. 

 

I would say that until Buddhahood or at least a high level of achievement none of us are complete - by which I mean we have not really become self consistent in our thoughts or actions.  This is why people act inconsistently, say one thing or profess one standard and then act in a different way.  The temptations of the world are great and while I regret the harm done by this kind of thing I don't really blame the person so much - even if it is one of the regularly occurring high Lamas indulging in sexual misconduct.  In a way it is helpful to me to remove any rose tinted specs I might have been wearing.

 

Most of us are in the middle - well intentioned and muddling about.  Many have been radically confused by bad interpretation of religious text and doctrine - often by deliberate dissembling by the preacher.

 

Morals and karma are inextricably linked - especially as the Buddha said 'intention is also karma' - or words to that effect.  The only real standard for morality is in my opinion consequentialist - in other words if I do 'x' then 'y' will result - so I will try my best to avoid a bad 'x' count.  However I am realistic enough to know that I will likely fall short of perfection.  But it is really a matter of 'try to do better' - when reviewing one's actions.

 

I think that forgiveness is essential to good mental health and that revenge is petty.  Generosity of spirit is a top attainment.

 

Generally speaking morality is a mine field and it pays to keep it simple because no amount of worry about the detail will lead to a great improvement.  Accept the simple rule of thumb - like the five lay precepts and carry on.

 

Just my thoughts.

[manitou]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:38 AM, Lairg said:

Karma however occurs when entities cause discomfort for the Entity that uses a solar system, galaxy or universe as its body of incarnation.   

 

 

 

OMG, this is beautiful, Lairg.  Thank you.

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by manitou

[manitou]

On 7/8/2023 at 12:05 AM, VELLY said:

Morals are influenced by individual values, while ethics encompass broader societal expectations and norms. I am more concerned with morals here, let's say I find a wallet on the road. My moral values are such that I think it is a reward given by God and I decide to keep it. Whereas ethical standards emphasize returning lost items to the owner.

Many a times we know that something is wrong according to the rules set by society or religion yet we justify our wrongdoings by our own moral standards. 

What is confusing to me is that how does the cycle of karma work then? Does it boil down to intentions? But that is still confusing as I may do all types of wrong things without hurting anyone. Exploitation is a good example of this. I may misuse someone vulnerable for personal gains.

 

Spirituality for me is journey of connecting with someone greater than ourselves who guides us during good and bad times.In Bhakti Marg, individuals cultivate a deep and heartfelt love, devotion, and surrender to a chosen deity or a personal form of the divine. I see people with all kinds of bad behaviour reciting the name of God. I see them happy also. I just doubt God sometimes and cycle of Karma.

 

 

 

If a person is a soul-tender, it places a different light on it.   To me, that means that nothing is more important than the condition of my 'soul'.  That means I need to rectify the twists and turns within my thoughts, learn to undo those things which remain in me from early conditioning that cause me to react or act out in some particular way.  Once one has worked on this for a while, the results can be felt in that we can step back from the drama and see the occurrence for what it is.  But there are no more Rules, no one else's moral code.  When you're reading yourself and the condition of your own soul, any answer becomes obvious.  Do what's in the highest interest the moment dictates.  No one else's rules are necessary.

 

The Karma thing is tricky, as I see it, because of the awareness that all is actually happening Now and linear time is actually the illusion.  We buy into the entire mental constructs of government, relationships, bad ones repeating over and over because we're manifesting it - the lesson needs to be learned, and until the message is understood, the manifestation will continue to occur, regardless of whose face is on it.

 

But I do know one thing.  If you stop putting bad stuff out there, you'll stop having it happen.  Like, if you want a friend, be a friend...

[Daniel]

On 7/7/2023 at 1:12 AM, VELLY said:

Is morality not an integral part of spirituality?

 

I think it is.

 

On 7/8/2023 at 12:05 AM, VELLY said:

Spirituality for me is journey of connecting with someone greater than ourselves who guides us during good and bad times.

 

Agreed.

 

On 7/8/2023 at 12:05 AM, VELLY said:

Kindly guide

 

I think what you're observing with individuals who are, in my opinion, spiritual people making immoral choices is a consequence of being finite individuals living and operating in a physical world.  Everything physical, everything material is by its nature imperfect, and this physicality conceals the interconnectedness of everything that exists.  If people realized how connected everything is, I doubt they would behave the way they do.  But, it's a material world, where everything appears to be distinct and divided.

 

Further these distinctions and divisions are not limited to what are traditionally considered material "things".

 

Just as people can be described as body-soul.  Almost everything can be described this way.  The body is the outershell, the soul is the inner essence.  It's the outershell that produces the illusion of division and distinction.  The outershell is imperfect, it's what is processed subjectively by the human brain.  The inner essence is the perfect true identity of what each "thing" actually is.

 

It's somewhat easy to imagine animate objects having body-soul.  It's a little more difficult to imagine inanimate objects having body-soul.  And it's even more difficult to imagine words, thoughts, ideas, and symbols as having body-soul.  But, everything can be described this way with one exception.

 

Rules can also be described as body-soul.  The "letter of the law" is the body, it's the part that can be subjectively interpretted, loopholes identified and exploited.  This is when the subjective interpretation disagrees with what the law actually intends to prevent or encourage.  Or, the letter of the law can be interpretted properly without loopholes without exploitation in a way which agrees with the "spirit of the law".  It's the spirit of it which is beyond corruption.

 

Just as there are human constructed rules, there is also a higher law.  Just as there is human constructed justice, there is also a higher justice.  All of those have body-soul, part of it can be corrupted, and part of it cannot.  The higher law and the higher justice are not excluded from this.  The higher law can be subjectively interpretted in a way which either agrees or disagrees with the spirit of the higher law.  

 

Now here's the most important part.  Justice.  When people experience justice which results from crimes, either human constructed crimes or crimes of the higher law, the "body" of the justice that is served is subjectively interpretted.  This permits people to rationalize what is happening to them, and they make excuses and avoid personal responsibility.  But the "soul" of the justice that is served is happening regardless of whether they accept it or acknowlede it in any way.  Even if people acknowledge the "body" of the justice that is being served, there is always something hidden happening behind the scenes, that is concealed by the outershell of the justice they are recieving.

 

So, as a consequence of living in a material world, there is a lot happening which is hidden, and not apparent.  Part of this is the interconnectedness of everything.  If a person cheats on their spouse and doesnt get caught, that doesn't mean that no crime has been committed.  But, it might appear that way on the surface.  Also, people don't realize the dual nature, the body-soul dynamic that permits subjective interpretation of almost everything.  And this subjective interpretation may or may not agree with the concealed inner essence of what each "thing" actually is.  And this dual-nature also applies to justice which can also be subjectively interpretted in a way that avoids personal responsibility.  But there is a concealed justice being applied which is independent of any subjective avoidance of responsibility.  Because it is concealed it's easy to ignore.  But, it's happening, and it's usually observable, if people know what to look for.

 

So, people bend the rules, break the rules, rationalize their crimes and ignore consequences.  Why?  Because they can.

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Daniel