Newcomer Seeeking Answers

[PestiferMundi]

Hello, I'm just some guy who is seeking answers to various questions before I begin training in anything. I'll probably be making a thread to ask specifically about this one later (in the appropriate sub-forum where it will get the most views) but I guess I'll mention my first question here anyways (it's a two part question):

 

1. Which is the better and more complete Nei Gong training between these two?

Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu by Wang LiPing

OR

Daoist Alchemy: Nei Gong & Wei Gong Training by Jerry Alan Johnson

 

The book by Wang LiPing seems to have a more secure and known lineage (I know there is a 2nd edition of the book, but I'm going with the 1st edition). But the book by Jerry Alan Johnson looks a lot more detailed. So I'm kinda stuck.

 

2. If there is a better and more complete training (in the form of a book), what is it?

[Taoist Texts]

On 7/9/2023 at 12:50 AM, PestiferMundi said:

1. Which is the better and more complete Nei Gong training between these two?

there is no such thing as neigong. its a snake oil

 

JAJ is an outright fraud, WLP is less outright

On 7/9/2023 at 12:50 AM, PestiferMundi said:

2. If there is a better and more complete training (in the form of a book), what is it

 

https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Chinese-Meditation-Self-Cultivation-Mahayana/dp/0877280665

 

start with p 175

[mcoolio]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

there is no such thing as neigong. its a snake oil

 

That's quite the claim. Care to explain?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Hi @PestiferMundi,

 

As per our discussion on Reddit, here is more info on the teacher I recommend:

 

Hopefully it can help you reconsider learning only from books
 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, mcoolio said:

 

That's quite the claim. Care to explain?

sure.

you see neigong is a kinda sorta chinese sounding name, right? so its only natural what does it mean in chinese, right? lets look it up, shall we?

Quote

 

the chinese wiki

https://baike.baidu.com/item/内功/8500204

says

但是早期却不称为“内功” earlier there was no such name as neigong

and it also says

例如清末形意拳大师宋世荣（1849-1927）先生所推崇的《内功四经》； 清人王祖源（1822—1886）于光绪7年(1881)刊印的《内功图说》 the term neigong was used only twice in only 2 book titles back in 1900. 

 

 

despite the title these books were dealing with Xingyi martial art and some EXTERNAL gymnastics. NOT whatever is sold now under the neigong brand.

 

Quote

（多见于武侠小说） Then the term neigong got adopted in fantasy MA novels

On the modern market the seminar-sellers first sold qigong, then neidan, and finally neigong as the next bright shiny thing to lure the seminar-hoppers over the last 30 years. And of course it was the same old tired rehashed  content from the 1980's  chinese  qigong craze.

 

See? I cared.

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition

[PestiferMundi]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

there is no such thing as neigong. its a snake oil

 

JAJ is an outright fraud, WLP is less outright

 

https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Chinese-Meditation-Self-Cultivation-Mahayana/dp/0877280665

 

start with p 175

Isn't Nei Gong older than Qi Gong?

 

Atleast that's what I see online in every source.

 

Well either way I like your response because of how specific you are, most people don't put that much detail into their responses, even giving the page number. I'll be sure to check it out.

[diggorydogood]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

sure.

you see neigong is a kinda sorta chinese sounding name, right? so its only natural what does it mean in chinese, right? lets look it up, shall we?

 

despite the title these books were dealing with Xingyi martial art and some EXTERNAL gymnastics. NOT whatever is sold now under the neigong brand.

 

On the modern market the seminar-sellers first sold qigong, then neidan, and finally neigong as the next bright shiny thing to lure the seminar-hoppers over the last 30 years. And of course it was the same old tired rehashed  content from the 1980's  chinese  qigong craze.

 

See? I cared.

 

 

Your entire premise is based on if it isn’t codified in a book therefore it must not exist. 

But in your survey you dismiss the copious amounts of books and translations on the very subject. 

For instance:

The wuzhen pian 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Foundations-Internal-Alchemy-Taoist-Practice/dp/0984308253/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=pCDVW&content-id=amzn1.sym.b23cb387-9a65-4c5f-8523-6979ddb19d2e&pf_rd_p=b23cb387-9a65-4c5f-8523-6979ddb19d2e&pf_rd_r=7GR5KN7H40MWQYXWWXVM&pd_rd_wg=dq9NQ&pd_rd_r=2f21dd76-cfac-4bb9-977a-1f4166c9977e&ref_=aufs_ap_sc_mbl

 

The xiuzhen boubian 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cultivating-Tao-Internal-Alchemy-Masters/dp/0985547510/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=pCDVW&content-id=amzn1.sym.b23cb387-9a65-4c5f-8523-6979ddb19d2e&pf_rd_p=b23cb387-9a65-4c5f-8523-6979ddb19d2e&pf_rd_r=7GR5KN7H40MWQYXWWXVM&pd_rd_wg=dq9NQ&pd_rd_r=2f21dd76-cfac-4bb9-977a-1f4166c9977e&ref_=aufs_ap_sc_mbl

The world upside down

https://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Upside-Down-Internal-Alchemy/dp/0984308261/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=pCDVW&content-id=amzn1.sym.b23cb387-9a65-4c5f-8523-6979ddb19d2e&pf_rd_p=b23cb387-9a65-4c5f-8523-6979ddb19d2e&pf_rd_r=7GR5KN7H40MWQYXWWXVM&pd_rd_wg=dq9NQ&pd_rd_r=2f21dd76-cfac-4bb9-977a-1f4166c9977e&ref_=aufs_ap_sc_mbl

And myriads of others if you really look at the older Chinese anthropological texts often found in caves and such. Secondly as pointed out the method is often taught orally. I have yet to see a text to describe actual methods across the different stages a person will experience in either Chinese or in English. Sufficed to say you will never find Taoist Texts to outline nei dan / nei gong processes and results like the texts for qi gong (which again are plentiful)

 

[Taoist Texts]

16 minutes ago, diggorydogood said:

I have yet to see a text to describe actual methods

i am sure you have;)

 

17 minutes ago, diggorydogood said:

Sufficed to say you will never find Taoist Texts to outline nei dan

[Taoist Texts]

57 minutes ago, PestiferMundi said:

Isn't Nei Gong older than Qi Gong?

yes by around 60 years in the last century. you  know the bell-bottoms era

[diggorydogood]

10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am sure you have;)

 

You won’t find texts that outline both nei dan (goals) or processes for students (methods). 

The books on either aren’t good and that’s for a reason. These are oral traditions and esoteric for a reason. As close as the translations are by Fabrizio Pregadio (few others too), there’s something missing. 

They really aren’t meant for westerners and I don’t think in the centuries many considered lay people or westerners would practice it. 

Most wouldn’t like that we are practicing - even the ones who have gone to attain a very high level. 

General rule of thumb is you won’t find a lineage in a book. You won’t find the full methods in a book. And you won’t find an explanation of processes in a book either. 

[Taoist Texts]

32 minutes ago, diggorydogood said:

 you won’t find a lineage in a book. You won’t find the full methods in a book. And you won’t find an explanation of processes in a book either. 

i am sorry sir, i do not understand whom you address here as 'you'. if by 'you' you address me personally then i have found all these things in books long time ago, thank you very much. 

 

and if by 'you' you mean some other people apart from myself then that brings to mind my fav quote: 

(or it could be bismarck idk)

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am sorry sir, i do not understand whom you address here as 'you'. if by 'you' you address me personally then i have found all these things in books long time ago, thank you very much. 

 

and if by 'you' you mean some other people apart from myself then that brings to mind my fav quote: 

(or it could be bismarck idk)

 

I thought you said you haven’t found anything about neigong in books?

[Taoist Texts]

35 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

I thought you said you haven’t found anything about neigong in books?

yes, i did not.;) what i said was in response to him talking about neiDan. pls see below:

1 hour ago, diggorydogood said:

You won’t find texts that outline both nei dan (goals) or processes for students (methods). 

the gentleman keeps repeating that. probly repetition makes it true or something, idk

Edited July 12, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes, i did not.;) what i said was in response to him talking about neiDan. pls see below:

he keeps repeating that. probly repetition makes it true or something

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

@PestiferMundi see, this is a prime example on why learning from books alone won’t get you far

[Neirong]

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tradition

In reality it is not even oral, verbal passing of knowledge is still the external method.

If we talk about any internal, spiritual and esoteric teaching, the essence of teaching comes from the energy and mental imprints shared by Teacher. Good luck for anyone to record it in words, and pass via a book.

Can anyone describe a 12-dimensional object in 2-dimensional space of a book? The language humans use in any country simply does not have terms that would be able to represent spiritual realms.

[Neirong]

11 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

@PestiferMundi see, this is a prime example on why learning from books alone won’t get you far

 

To no one's surprise, Mother Seagull feeds her children with fish caught in the ocean. She does not feed them with images or words describing a fish. The young Seagull, taking in the food, is able to grow, learn, and develop to a point where he can travel on his own and hunt for a fish. Again, a real one, not lectures, not words, not books describing a fish.

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

14 minutes ago, Neirong said:

 

To no one's surprise, Mother Seagull feeds her children with fish caught in the ocean. She does not feed them with images or words describing a fish. The young Seagull, taking in the food, is able to grow, learn, and develop to a point where he can travel on his own and hunt for a fish. Again, a real one, not lectures, not words, not books describing a fish.

 

Yup nothing beats first hand experience, especially in these matters. It has to be felt to really understand.

[dwai]

moderator note:

 

Indiken you are being given a warning and a 7 day ban for your abusive/uncouth post 

[oak]

Hi PestiferMundi.

So, where does one find true knowledge? Is it near? is it far? is it only available to those who have money to pay for very expensive seminars?... or to those who are pure at heart 😇😆?

To me the vital answer and the one that deserves deep consideration and meditation is in this passage of Dante's Divine Comedy (Inferno, Chap 1) : Dante meets Virgil ( video 3:30 ) How, where and why does he meet him is IMHO what you should take in consideration. The video has captions in English. Best of luck.

 

[liminal_luke]

On 7/8/2023 at 1:50 PM, PestiferMundi said:

 

Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu by Wang LiPing

 

 

Hi PestiferMundi,

 

I think you'll find it difficult getting very far studying from that book alone.  If you're interested Wang LiPing's lineage, an accessible entry might be to take the online course offered by Nathan Brine.

 

Taoist Alchemy Online (nathanbrine.com)

Edited July 13, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

On 7/13/2023 at 2:37 AM, Taoist Texts said:

yes by around 60 years in the last century. you  know the bell-bottoms era

 

Would not that be the  'gong-bottoms' era  then ?

 

- Down here,  we got a looooooooong tradition of oral knowledge .  But the method of  retaining that knowledge in written form only arrived a little over 200 years ago .

 

Writing appeared a lot earlier in China though .  So, I wonder why this  long and extant oral tradition never got put into writing  .... when all sorts of other 'secret' texts did ?

 

Back in the 'bell bottom' era  all sorts of  fun and knowledge where revealed to us  .... even the 'Aboriginal tarot '  !        ( Which got made by two Jap tourists that came here once for a couple of weeks on their annual holidays    ) 

 

 

[kakapo]

On 7/8/2023 at 4:50 PM, PestiferMundi said:

Hello, I'm just some guy who is seeking answers to various questions before I begin training in anything. I'll probably be making a thread to ask specifically about this one later (in the appropriate sub-forum where it will get the most views) but I guess I'll mention my first question here anyways (it's a two part question):

 

1. Which is the better and more complete Nei Gong training between these two?

Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu by Wang LiPing

OR

Daoist Alchemy: Nei Gong & Wei Gong Training by Jerry Alan Johnson

 

The book by Wang LiPing seems to have a more secure and known lineage (I know there is a 2nd edition of the book, but I'm going with the 1st edition). But the book by Jerry Alan Johnson looks a lot more detailed. So I'm kinda stuck.

 

2. If there is a better and more complete training (in the form of a book), what is it?

 

Ask the question which lineages or teachers can present good evidence  that is backed by scientists and medical doctors, and recorded on video.

 

If they are a public lineage, actively trying to recruit, and cannot or will not provide such evidence my assumption would be it is because they are unable to provide it, and their practice doesn't do much if anything at all.

 

Just my $0.02, your mileage may vary.

[PestiferMundi]

On 7/13/2023 at 6:44 AM, oak said:

Dante meets Virgil ( video 3:30 ) How, where and why does he meet him is IMHO what you should take in consideration. The video has captions in English. Best of luc

I'm gonna watch this with an open mind and see if I can gauge the meaning you expect me to, but I really hope you aren't doing the "wise man speaking in riddles" thing here lol. In most cases people end up learning nothing from those. Some interpretations which may seem obvious to you are actually the result of specific knowledge, perspective, and experiences that you have.