St. George and the dragon

[Apech]

I looked up the etymology of dragon:

Quote

 

dragon (n.)

mid-13c., dragoun, a fabulous animal common to the conceptions of many races and peoples, from Old French dragon and directly from Latin draconem (nominative draco) "huge serpent, dragon," from Greek drakon (genitive drakontos) "serpent, giant seafish," apparently from drak-, strong aorist stem of derkesthai "to see clearly," from PIE *derk- "to see" (source also of Sanskrit darsata- "visible;" Old Irish adcondarc "I have seen;" Gothic gatarhjan "characterize;" Old English torht, Old High German zoraht "light, clear;" Albanian dritë "light").

Perhaps the literal sense is "the one with the (deadly) glance." The young are dragonets (c. 1300). Fem. form dragoness is attested from 1630s. Obsolete drake (n.2) "dragon" is an older borrowing of the same word, and a later form in another sense is dragoon. Used in the Bible generally for creatures of great size and fierceness; it translates Hebrew tannin "a great sea-monster," and tan, a desert mammal now believed to be the jackal.

 

 

Someone has already mentioned the Egyptian Apep (Apophis) ... and the Egyptians while not having dragons as such had many serpents with legs and also flying serpents.  The winged serpent called Neheb-kau was actually benign in nature as was the 'curled' serpent Mehen.  So there were both benign and malign serpents.  Indeed Apep the great enemy of the Sun God appears in later texts where originally there are a host of inimical beings called collectively Rerek (comprising snakes, scorpions, beetles and so on).

 

The known universe was defined in terms of boundary by the great 'World Encircling Serpent' whose coils defined the boundary between this world and the next ( the hidden Duat or underworld realm).

 

So if the western concept of the dragon is a development of the walking winged serpent it would seem to be fundamental to the way in which the universe is structured.  To be benign in the sense that it sets up necessary boundaries for reality to exist ... essentially the distinctions between things and fields ... but to become malign when those boundaries become restrictive or based for instance on the fear of the unknown.

 

In the first picture the knight seems to have ridden out of a forest - a wilderness and there are some strange looking squares of grass or perhaps planted fields on the ground.  In the second picture there is a cultivated farm/garden and a building on the left suggesting a structured environment where the maiden/princess lives (?).  

 

In the first picture there is a strange cloud formation shown over the trees which could be compared to the coils of a serpent which form a kind of giant eye.  Note the original meaning of dragon as to do with light and vision.

 

The cave is the lair of the dragon and also the entrance to the hidden realm.  The dragon guards the hidden realm and has captured the maiden/princess - she is shown chained to the dragon in one picture but her position in the second is more enigmatic as she appears to be praying.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited July 14, 2023 by Apech

[oak]

I find it interesting that each work of art representing this theme reveals a specific interpretation of the artist, may it be full of prejudice or full of spiritual maturity. For years I've been trying to find the painting of this theme that spoke to me the most which I saw on a magazine in a doctor's waiting room. It seems nowhere to be found on the internet. Will  keep on looking and maybe share it on this thread someday.

[oak]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 So there were both benign and malign serpents.  

 

" Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Isrselites died.

The people came to Moses and said "We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and agaist you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 

The Lord said to Moses, " Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived."

 

The Bible is full of kundalini representations if anyone wishes to look for them.

 

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the son of man must be lifted up."

 

A curious one which makes me think a lot of Quetzalcoatl, the plumed serpent " (...) so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

 

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

The snake god Neheb-kau - to illustrate what I said above:

 

[Apech]

53 minutes ago, oak said:

I find it interesting that each work of art representing this theme reveals a specific interpretation of the artist, may it be full of prejudice or full of spiritual maturity. For years I've been trying to find the painting of this theme that spoke to me the most which I saw on a magazine in a doctor's waiting room. It seems nowhere to be found on the internet. Will  keep on looking and maybe share it on this thread someday.

 

Hope you find it!  

[Taoist Texts]

On 7/13/2023 at 2:47 PM, Apech said:

Why must the knight slay the dragon and rescue the damsel?  And while you're at it what is that cave doing there?

well first of all he is not rescuing her. he is raping her given that the dragon protects her as her pet on the leash. secondly, the cave is shaped you know what, and the dragon's teeth are positioned right in front of it...so... you know...

Edited July 14, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[Zorro Dantes]

 

well duh. a horse in the picture is never real - it is painted. like, who knew

……Now that you mention it the idea of slaying a dragon with bother kundalini mastered, and lungta aquired. The painting looks more and more to me like a  battle between dragons with one being less evolved and refined.

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

I looked up the etymology of dragon:

 

Someone has already mentioned the Egyptian Apep (Apophis) ... and the Egyptians while not having dragons as such had many serpents with legs and also flying serpents.  The winged serpent called Neheb-kau was actually benign in nature as was the 'curled' serpent Mehen.  So there were both benign and malign serpents.  Indeed Apep the great enemy of the Sun God appears in later texts where originally there are a host of inimical beings called collectively Rerek (comprising snakes, scorpions, beetles and so on).

 

The known universe was defined in terms of boundary by the great 'World Encircling Serpent' whose coils defined the boundary between this world and the next ( the hidden Duat or underworld realm).

 

So if the western concept of the dragon is a development of the walking winged serpent it would seem to be fundamental to the way in which the universe is structured.  To be benign in the sense that it sets up necessary boundaries for reality to exist ... essentially the distinctions between things and fields ... but to become malign when those boundaries become restrictive or based for instance on the fear of the unknown.

 

In the first picture the knight seems to have ridden out of a forest - a wilderness and there are some strange looking squares of grass or perhaps planted fields on the ground.  In the second picture there is a cultivated farm/garden and a building on the left suggesting a structured environment where the maiden/princess lives (?).  

 

In the first picture there is a strange cloud formation shown over the trees which could be compared to the coils of a serpent which form a kind of giant eye.  Note the original meaning of dragon as to do with light and vision.

 

The cave is the lair of the dragon and also the entrance to the hidden realm.  The dragon guards the hidden realm and has captured the maiden/princess - she is shown chained to the dragon in one picture but her position in the second is more enigmatic as she appears to be praying.

 

Any thoughts?

 

She is chained to the dragon ?  or is it the other way around ? If she is chained to dragon , she does not look too worried about it . It seems more like a pet on a lead . And her look and posture seems to be  ( to the knight )  ; " Now look what you have gone and done ! "

 

- I give no significance to the storm clouds , which strangely spiral .... unless  we are supposed to be looking up through a sideways cyclone  .... its just weird painting  ... like the 'cave ' entrance  , which somehow resembles a post apocalyptic Sydney Opera House with the front  view windows smashed in .

 

And I dont see the second one as  the woman 'praying' .  She seems to have clapped her hands together and is exclaiming " Oh , Good shot Sir George  !  ... and  that  'cave '  ???  .... seriously ? .... looks more like a bad  large tent I made out of bamboo framework and an old canvass !

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

well first of all he is not rescuing her. he is raping her given that the dragon protects her as her pet on the leash. secondly, the cave is shaped you know what, and the dragon's teeth are positioned right in front of it...so... you know...

 

Oh come on now TT !

 

next you will be telling us how a medieval  church has two domes as breasts ,  outer doors and inner doors resembling a vagina , a passage way through them where the host is carried in a high mass,  including two fonts either side at the beginning as lubrication glands ,  leading into an altar 'implant site'  with two passages coming from behind it ( where the eggs are kept )   and   ....

 

 

 

[Nungali]

So, some do equate dragons with serpentine creatures ; ie. snakes with extra-snake abilities ;  walking, flying etc .

 

And like many  such stories ,  it begins with a pair - this is the oldest one I know of  ;  the creation of the Rainbow Serpent .

 

One on earth ;  Ungud , one in the heavens  ; Wallenganda .    Their equivalent is diamond python and black snake . One a constrictor and the other venomous  ; or in 'Aussie pidgin'   One 'rubbish snake' the other 'cheeky snake ' .

 

The one in the heavens is also the dark space within the Milky Way ; she spat water down on to Ungud , he took it underground where it formed a big pool, and went to sleep in it.  he had a dream where he multiplied himself  into many rainbow serpents  and spread out in all directions underground and the water followed them along their tunnels .  Where they burst out the ground made springs and the beginnings of rivers , where they dove back into the earth in the desert made 'soaks' .... eventually they all made their way to the end of the big disc floating in space , churning up the land, making hills and valleys and when getting to the edge flowed out and made the ocean that surrounds the 'great island' .

 

 

 

 

 

                                                                                  

[Apech]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

She is chained to the dragon ?  or is it the other way around ? If she is chained to dragon , she does not look too worried about it . It seems more like a pet on a lead . And her look and posture seems to be  ( to the knight )  ; " Now look what you have gone and done ! "

 

- I give no significance to the storm clouds , which strangely spiral .... unless  we are supposed to be looking up through a sideways cyclone  .... its just weird painting  ... like the 'cave ' entrance  , which somehow resembles a post apocalyptic Sydney Opera House with the front  view windows smashed in .

 

And I dont see the second one as  the woman 'praying' .  She seems to have clapped her hands together and is exclaiming " Oh , Good shot Sir George  !  ... and  that  'cave '  ???  .... seriously ? .... looks more like a bad  large tent I made out of bamboo framework and an old canvass !

 

The cave reminds me of Byzantine cave pictures eg.

 

 

 

[Apech]

I agree to a certain extent that the relationship of maiden to dragon is possibly ambiguous - although I think in later Romantic art she is always shown in distress and chained to a rock or similar.  (Tastes change over time!).  Obviously also as in much mythological and religious symbolic art there is a strong sexual element.  But if we reduce this to some kind of record of ancient sexual assault (#metoo dragon) then we would have to do the same with all tantric art also.  Beauty and art are in the eye of the beholder and if you see rape rather than rescue in this, then so be it.  It may say more about your eye than the intent of the artist (?).

 

I see the cave as the doorway to the otherworld which is guarded by the dragon - even though it does look like a canvas mock up stage cave than a real one.  Thus I would say that we have three worlds in the picture.  The ordered 'fields' or garden - 'the known', the wild wood 'the unknown' and the hidden darkness of the cave 'the unknowable'.

 

I would take the maiden/princess to be the psyche or soul (or subtle body), the dragon to be the appetival primal energy (originally sky born awareness but cast down through greed, lust etc.) and the knight to be the 'hero' - the cultivator on the path who liberates the subtle by pinning the dragon.

 

?

[Apech]

 

"Hey up!  What's in the bag darling?"

[Taoist Texts]

55 minutes ago, Apech said:

pinning the dragon.

whats 'pinning'? is the dragon killed or not? what happens to the princess and the knight? do they get married have kids? Do they go separate ways?  A  painting is a snapshot. We gotta have the full story arc to understand what happens in the snapshot.

 

And  a partial   story arc is:  

The narrative was first set in Cappadocia in the earliest sources of the 11th and 12th centuries, but transferred to Libya in the 13th-century Golden Legend.^[1]

 

When the king saw he might no more do, he began to weep, and said to his daughter: Now shall I never see thine espousals. Then returned he to the people and demanded eight days' respite, and they granted it to him. And when the eight days were passed they came to him and said: Thou seest that the city perisheth: Then did the king do array his daughter like as she should be wedded, and embraced her, kissed her and gave her hls benediction, and after, led her to the place where the dragon was.

When she was there S. George passed by, and when he saw the lady he demanded the lady what she made there and she said: Go ye your way fair young man, that ye perish not also. Then said he: Tell to me what have ye and why weep ye, and doubt ye of nothing. When she saw that he would know, she said to him how she was delivered to the dragon. Then said S. George: Fair daughter, doubt ye no thing hereof for I shall help thee in the name of Jesu Christ. She said: For God's sake, good knight, go your way, and abide not with me, for ye may not deliver me. Thus as they spake together the dragon appeared and came running to them, and S. George was upon his horse, and drew out his sword and garnished him with the sign of the cross, and rode hardily against the dragon which came towards him, and smote him with his spear and hurt him sore and threw him to the ground. And after said to the maid: Deliver to me your girdle, and bind it about the neck of the dragon and be not afeard. When she had done so the dragon followed her as it had been a meek beast and debonair. Then she led him into the city, and the people fled by mountains and valleys, and said: Alas! alas! we shall be all dead. Then S. George said to them: Ne doubt ye no thing, without more, believe ye in God, Jesu Christ, and do ye to be baptized and I shall slay the dragon. Then the king was baptized and all his people, and S. George slew the dragon and smote off his head, and commanded that he should be thrown in the fields, and they took four carts with oxen that drew him out of the city.

Then were there well fifteen thousand men baptized, without women and children, and the king did do make a church there of our Lady and of S. George, in the which yet sourdeth a fountain of living water, which healeth sick people that drink thereof. After this the king offered to S. George as much money as there might be numbered, but he refused all and commanded that it should be given to poor people for God's sake; and enjoined the king four things, that is, that he should have charge of the churches, and that he should honour the priests and hear their service diligently, and that he should have pity on the poor people, and after, kissed the king and departed.

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/goldenlegend/gl-vol3-george.asp

 

note how the story ends in in disintegration

[oak]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

is the dragon killed or not? what happens to the princess and the knight? do they get married have kids? Do they go separate ways?  A  painting is a snapshot. We gotta have the full story arc to understand what happens in the snapshot.

 

 

 

This is an interesting debate and I do appreciate your contribution with the original story, legend, TT. Although it is an important point and some artists must have based themselves in the original story it is obvious that not all of them did. Some tried to share theirs or someone elses experiences or beliefs using this images, many people throughout history have had visions of St. George slaying the dragon...and a vision most times equals a snapshot.

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

whats 'pinning'? is the dragon killed or not? what happens to the princess and the knight? do they get married have kids? Do they go separate ways?  A  painting is a snapshot. We gotta have the full story arc to understand what happens in the snapshot.

 

 

I was perhaps letting my Egyptian studies creep in a little too much - the serpent Apep is pinned with knives and shackled rather than killed - perhaps this is a device to allow for him to appear again in the regular cycle of the passage of the sun.  In another Egyptian myth the god Atum (who is himself a great serpent) does battle with Apep and in order to win creates the harpoon with which he spears his opponent - but in the fight Atum becomes 'injured in the mouth' which is why he has to go down in the West to rest and recover - thus becomes the eternal solar cycle of the day.

 

In the story you kindly posted the dragon has his head cut off and he is 'thrown in the fields' - is this perhaps a suggestion of the decomposing body of the dragon fertilising the fields?  In Buddhism the rite of Mahakala has all the unclean rotting flesh of animals and other stuff thrown into his cauldron to make amritsa the nectar for the gods.

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

"Hey up!  What's in the bag darling?"

 

 

Its full of knight's testicles .

 

As my ' expecting the approach of the crash of everything - post apocalyptical expecting'  mate says   ( as he prepares to bury the shipping container he bought in the giant hole he dug with a rented digger ..... )  in his conversation about people having to eat rouge travelers in the future  due to lack of food  :

 

In a woman's voice :  "  Oh no, its not my turn  again to get tied to the tree  again ..... what do I get for it  !  "

 

Me ;  " You get  the kidneys . " 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I was perhaps letting my Egyptian studies creep in a little too much - the serpent Apep is pinned with knives and shackled rather than killed - perhaps this is a device to allow for him to appear again in the regular cycle of the passage of the sun.  In another Egyptian myth the god Atum (who is himself a great serpent) does battle with Apep and in order to win creates the harpoon with which he spears his opponent - but in the fight Atum becomes 'injured in the mouth' which is why he has to go down in the West to rest and recover - thus becomes the eternal solar cycle of the day.

 

Ahh , the 'great' battle .  One was held west of here ; the local Gumbayngir totem ; giant goanna , fought with the next north country; Bunjalung totem giant snake.  But this was probably earth based territorial matters .  The fight culminated  at Ebor Falls , where one can still see the giant goanna scratch marks and damage in the rocks   

 

 

 

In the story you kindly posted the dragon has his head cut off and he is 'thrown in the fields' - is this perhaps a suggestion of the decomposing body of the dragon fertilising the fields?

 

That's  an ancient rite !   Sometimes  ( previously, in 'ungodly times' ) it would have been a person .   For an interesting graphic representation with  patched together with some  interesting old stock footage + retro hollywood, see the film Medea

 

"  In the film's prologue, the centaur Chiron teaches the young boy Jason about the world and tells him about the voyage he will one day embark on to Colchis. The land of Colchis houses the Golden Fleece and is home to many bizarre rituals, like human sacrifice. "     - this is rather graphic and disturbing in the film but shows a good example of the practice ; the slaughtered and chopped up boy's  ( previously treated like a great treasure / prince  ) body parts and organs are distributed to the populace and they race off yelling , burring little parts of him all over the place under the crops .

 

- worth watching ;  some amazing scenery ; Cappadocia , costumes and some old stock ritual footage .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea_(1969_film)

 

 

 

 

 

  In Buddhism the rite of Mahakala has all the unclean rotting flesh of animals and other stuff thrown into his cauldron to make amritsa the nectar for the gods.

 

Yes  thats the good stuff (as we assure them )   .....

meanwhile, us poor old humans stuck down here with

 

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

12 hours ago, Apech said:

In the story you kindly posted the dragon has his head cut off and he is 'thrown in the fields' - is this perhaps a suggestion of the decomposing body of the dragon fertilising the fields?

yes it is,  also irrigating (remember the living water fountain) because similarly to china dragon was a rain/river/crops  god in the west as well. 'Dragon appearing in the field. (as in a clay figurine of a dragon spirit)   http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?no=1&l=Yijing or a constellation https://www.yijing.nl/origins/01_dragons.html

 

15 hours ago, oak said:

and a vision most times equals a snapshot.

of course it is. but unless we decode the arc the snapshot remains a mirror in which Apech sees the battle of energies, i see a mating ritual, you something else... and all of it is fine. Its a completely legit way to use the image. And another way is to deconstruct the background in order to reconstruct the story arc.

[Taomeow]

 

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes it is,  also irrigating (remember the living water fountain) because similarly to china dragon was a rain/river/crops  god in the west as well. 'Dragon appearing in the field. (as in a clay figurine of a dragon spirit)   http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?no=1&l=Yijing or a constellation https://www.yijing.nl/origins/01_dragons.html

 

Chinese dragons have many functions, sizes, and meanings.  They have a different anatomy -- e.g. most Chinese dragons have no wings and none breathe fire -- they breathe mists and clouds instead.  Most Chinese dragons go through metamorphoses during their life cycles, starting out with typical yin characteristics (living in bodies of water) followed by a flip over to yang --  that's when they can fly and produce things like thunder and lightning.  For flight, they use different means -- specific anatomical organs (chimu and/or poshan), gravity manipulation through magic, etc..  They don't normally eat maidens nor are interested in forcing unwanted sex on them.  They can eat up whole empires though if sufficiently pissed off or harmed by humans, but otherwise are mostly benevolent.  Some are very large and are perceived as mountain ranges -- they move in a different timeline, which to ours appears so slow as to be imperceptible.  Others are very small -- worm-sized or even smaller.  Some reside in the human body and participate in its physiological functions, e.g. peristalsis.  Some can assume human form and live a human life as rulers or wise taoists (which according to apocryphal accounts is what Confucius discerned when he met Laozi -- "he is not a man, he is a dragon," he reportedly asserted.)       

  

[idquest]

On 13/07/2023 at 3:47 AM, Apech said:

 

Why must the knight slay the dragon and rescue the damsel?  And while you're at it what is that cave doing there?

Unravel the symbolism.

Let us try.

 

The cave is a treasury, the dragon is the guardian of the treasury, the knight is short of cash (as always) so he must rob the treasury. The role of the maiden is somewhat ambiguous, she might even be the owner of the treasury, but she can''t do anything against the brute knight.

[Apech]

16 hours ago, idquest said:

 

The cave is a treasury, the dragon is the guardian of the treasury, the knight is short of cash (as always) so he must rob the treasury. The role of the maiden is somewhat ambiguous, she might even be the owner of the treasury, but she can''t do anything against the brute knight.

 

The maiden is saying 'Look I just work here and we don't accept credit cards at this time.'

[Michael Sternbach]

On 13.7.2023 at 5:59 PM, oak said:

 

The Archangel Michael killing the dragon is a biblical theme. Not sure when or why in history the brits replaced him by St. George 🤪

 

Correction: Archangel Michael hurls the dragon to the Earth, but does not kill him in the Revelation of John.

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, idquest said:

 

The cave is a treasury, the dragon is the guardian of the treasury, the knight is short of cash (as always) so he must rob the treasury. The role of the maiden is somewhat ambiguous, she might even be the owner of the treasury, but she can''t do anything against the brute knight.

 

This a common mistake . The Dragons actually make the treasure themselves that they guard .  They fly high up into the mountains where they find the right rock face and with their claws delicately and intricately carve out  various shapes as molds into the rock. Then with their metal stash , that they have previously blasted out of ores and smelted, they hold some over the mold and breath  intense fire on to it so it melts into the mold. Then they get various gems that they have cut with their teeth and set them into the objects , a bit of breath brazing  some finish off polishing on their skin and viola !   beautiful jeweled rings , necklaces, chalices  .... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

By the way, I own this icon, and since we have St.George savvy folks here, maybe someone can tell me more about it?  What I do know is that it is, in all likelihood, Armenian Apostolic (one of the oldest branches of Christianity, founded in the 1st century AD and the first one to become a state religion -- in 301 AD), authentic, created no later than the 19th century (painted on a thick oak board that was made using a technique that wasn't used later than that) -- and it has a boy in it instead of a maiden.  I've been meaning to investigate it further for years but could never get around to it.  All input welcome.         

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Taomeow