ABC News anchor credits meditation and mindfulness with recovery from drug addiction

[thelerner]

I'd add aids are nice but to grow we have to get rid of them.  I collect guided meditations, yoga nidras, bi-aural sounds, new age music and meditation apps.  They're nice, but also crutches.  They occupy the mind, give it a little something to follow.   Just sitting,  You vs Mind, you learn more. 

 

Facing the physical and mental itches, you can choose big or small.  I used to go small.  Quieting the thoughts, seeking peace.  Nowadays I'm going big.  I itch, I think, but I'm also above it; they run and quiet of their own accord.  Instead of shutting down my senses, I honor and listen them with bright awareness.    

[C T]

I've met a good number of sadhus and yogis who's succumbed to bliss addiction. They're not exactly exemplars of Right Action. 

[Ajay0]

25 minutes ago, C T said:

I've met a good number of sadhus and yogis who's succumbed to bliss addiction. They're not exactly exemplars of Right Action. 

 

 Is the bliss of intrinsic nature or is it that of drugs ?

 

The drug users are not enlightened, and are not exemplars of right action , as you put it. They cannot be considered sadhu (ascetic) or yogi. Because a sadhu is one who is austere and practice austerities.  What is the austerity involved in easy and superficial usage of drugs !

 

A yogi is one who is yoked to the higher Self through the yogic methods. Drug use addiction only means more cravings and unconsciousness, and greater non-alignment with the Self. This is actually an unnatural state. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Ajay0

[C T]

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

 

 Is the bliss of intrinsic nature or is it that of drugs ?

 

The drug users are not enlightened, and are not exemplars of right action , as you put it. They cannot be considered sadhu (ascetic) or yogi. Because a sadhu is one who is austere and practice austerities.  What is the austerity involved in easy and superficial usage of drugs !

 

A yogi is one who is yoked to the higher Self through the yogic methods. Drug use addiction only means more cravings and unconsciousness, and greater non-alignment with the Self. This is actually an unnatural state. 

 

Wasn't referring to the ones found all along the Ganges and elsewhere. These are long term, serious adepts who could not, as much as they wanted to, find balance in harmonising spiritual practice and secular life, who then withdrew from society, either becoming reclusive or simply shut down. Not much different than those who, lost in the world of alternate AI reality, become dysfunctional. Both instances, quite blissfully ignorant. 

[Ajay0]

24 minutes ago, C T said:

These are long term, serious adepts who could not, as much as they wanted to, find balance in harmonising spiritual practice and secular life, who then withdrew from society, either becoming reclusive or simply shut down.

 

 If they are blissed by their own nature, I would consider them more successful than unhappy kings and billionaires who depend on external factors and intoxicants for their highs and pleasure.

 

 If they are not joyful by their own nature, it obviously means they are in a deluded state and their spiritual and material aspirations have ended in failure, due to poor knowledge and drive.

 

Quote

Not much different than those who, lost in the world of alternate AI reality, become dysfunctional. Both instances, quite blissfully ignorant. 

 

 Meditation induced bliss is different from that of the temporary euphoria involved in facebook and video/computer games, TV, WWF and cinemas.

 

The roman rulers brought about the colosseum games to dumb down the population and citizenry so that they will overlook faulty administration policies and corruption, and be impressed by the state's power to the point of  meek submissiveness.

 

 Modern governments do similar things as well with similar success rates.

[Nungali]

yet the 'sadhus' that sit around all day smoking dope .... in India ..... are  'spiritual' and that is considered acceptable .

 

It seems if one is an Indian , and one  takes drugs in their 'old fashioned , Indo- European ' way  ( ie. as part of ritual or 'being spiritual' ) , thats okay and a valid path .

 

Besides ;  'conscious is chemical' .    Religion, meditation and certain mental states   change the internal brain chemicals .  Circuit 7 - the neuro-genetic  is said to be activated by DMT  or advanced yoga practices .

[Ajay0]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

yet the 'sadhus' that sit around all day smoking dope .... in India ..... are  'spiritual' and that is considered acceptable .

It seems if one is an Indian , and one  takes drugs in their 'old fashioned , Indo- European ' way  ( ie. as part of ritual or 'being spiritual' ) , thats okay and a valid path .

 

Smoking dope does not bring enlightenment, and anyone with a proper understanding of Hindu and Buddhist philosophy can figure it out. 

 

If there are 'sadhus' that sit around all day smoking dope, they are drug addicts and not ascetics.

 

But judging them by photographs taken by some western tourist is not correct as well, as it does not cover the whole aspect of the austerities they may perform, and the religious rules and regulations they follow supplementing the cannabis they take, which is sanctioned by religion, and is proven to be less addictive than nicotine or alcohol.

 

The naga sadhus, who is the main sect which consume cannabis, lead a spartan life, devoted to lifelong celibacy, high levels of selfcontrol, eat only once a day, sleep on the bare earth , perform ancient physical austerities similar to that of modern commando training, and have a warrior tradition that would make any army on earth proud.

 

They are known to walk stark naked even in cold weather, meditate amongst crocodiles and venomous snakes, and perform other feats impossible for western drug addicts to emulate.

 

Quote

 

Besides ;  'conscious is chemical' .    Religion, meditation and certain mental states   change the internal brain chemicals .  Circuit 7 - the neuro-genetic  is said to be activated by DMT  or advanced yoga practices .

 

 

 

 

This is the part where scientific materialism comes to the picture.  As per ancient Hindu philosophy , pure unitary consciousness is the fundamental substratum of existence, and all matter, energy, space, time and causation are its diverse manifestations.

 

The sayings of two female enlightened masters will help to understand this better...

 

Quote

 

“There is One unchanging indivisible Reality which, though unmanifest, reveals Itself in infinite multiplicity and diversity.” ~ Anandamayi Ma

It is through the multiplicity of name and form that one can arrive at the One. It is from this One that this Infinite Variety has manifested. In the end all return to that effulgent One.~ Shivayogini Matha (1923-1981)

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Ajay0

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

 

4 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

 

Smoking dope does not bring enlightenment, and anyone with a proper understanding of Hindu and Buddhist philosophy can figure it out. 

 

If there are 'sadhus' that sit around all day smoking dope, they are drug addicts and not ascetics.

 

But judging them by photographs taken by some western tourist is not correct as well, as it does not cover the whole aspect of the austerities they may perform, and the religious rules and regulations they follow supplementing the cannabis they take, which is sanctioned by religion, and is proven to be less addictive than nicotine or alcohol.

 

The naga sadhus, who is the main sect which consume cannabis, lead a spartan life, devoted to lifelong celibacy, high levels of selfcontrol, eat only once a day, sleep on the bare earth , perform ancient physical austerities similar to that of modern commando training, and have a warrior tradition that would make any army on earth proud.

 

They are known to walk stark naked even in cold weather, meditate amongst crocodiles and venomous snakes, and perform other feats impossible for western drug addicts to emulate.

 

 

This is the part where scientific materialism comes to the picture.  As per ancient Hindu philosophy , pure unitary consciousness is the fundamental substratum of existence, and all matter, energy, space, time and causation are its diverse manifestations.

 

The sayings of two female enlightened masters will help to understand this better...

 

 

So Western drug addict = bad

Indian drug addict = good

Edited July 20, 2023 by Pak_Satrio

[Ajay0]

42 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

 

So Western drug addict = bad

Indian drug addict = good

 

Drug addicts, whether Indian or Western , is under the influence of his or her cravings for drugs, and hence is manipulated by unconscious tendencies and is a puppet in their hands.  It is a form of slavery and is bound to result in reactivity due to the emotional energy of the desires involved . 

 

Those who smoke or take drugs/intoxicants  without the least craving for them at any moment, are those who can take away any positive benefits they have to offer.  They cannot be called addicts, though. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Ajay0

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

22 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

 

Drug addicts, whether Indian or Western , is under the influence of his or her cravings for drugs, and hence is manipulated by unconscious tendencies and is a puppet in their hands.  It is a form of slavery and is bound to result in reactivity due to the emotional energy of the desires involved . 

 

Those who smoke or take drugs/intoxicants  without the least craving for them at any moment, are those who can take away any positive benefits they have to offer.  They cannot be called addicts, though. 

Ok so then by your own words drugs are not the problem, addiction is!

 

Are those who can take away any positive benefits they have to offer also able to take away all the negative benefits they have to offer too?

Edited July 21, 2023 by Pak_Satrio

[Nungali]

On 7/20/2023 at 2:46 PM, Ajay0 said:

 

Smoking dope does not bring enlightenment, and anyone with a proper understanding of Hindu and Buddhist philosophy can figure it out. 

 

If there are 'sadhus' that sit around all day smoking dope, they are drug addicts and not ascetics.

 

But judging them by photographs taken by some western tourist is not correct as well, as it does not cover the whole aspect of the austerities they may perform, and the religious rules and regulations they follow supplementing the cannabis they take, which is sanctioned by religion, and is proven to be less addictive than nicotine or alcohol.

 

So, now you are saying the stoned state is okay as long as religious rules and regulations are followed .  You seem to have changed the thrust of your argument .   You where saying it is a false state, not like meditation  .  But apparently it isnt   the drug itself now .... but the user and method .

 

 

The naga sadhus, who is the main sect which consume cannabis, lead a spartan life, devoted to lifelong celibacy, high levels of selfcontrol, eat only once a day, sleep on the bare earth , perform ancient physical austerities similar to that of modern commando training, and have a warrior tradition that would make any army on earth proud.

 

That happens in the west too ;  you smoke dope all day , you will end up not owning much, having no girl friend , be homeless , have little food .... and if you going to spend all day sitting in the street like that .... may as well take up meditating .   

 

They are known to walk stark naked even in cold weather, meditate amongst crocodiles and venomous snakes, and perform other feats impossible for western drug addicts to emulate.

 

Hmmmm .... I would have thought ; ' impossible for westerners to emulate ' . . . .   drug addicts or not .

 

 

This is the part where scientific materialism comes to the picture. 

 

Eh ?   How did that happen ?    Why does  that 'enter the picture' now ?   Because I mentioned the valid classification of Exo-psychology regarding psychological states and  psycho-active drugs ?  All that does is show that the west understands the effects of different types of drugs  better  and not classify being drunk and stoned or tripping as the same thing .

 

And I do believe various philosophies in India explore and name different psychological states , no ?   But that is where  ' un scientific spirituality '  enters the picture .... yes ?

 

As per ancient Hindu philosophy , pure unitary consciousness is the fundamental substratum of existence, and all matter, energy, space, time and causation are its diverse manifestations.

 

Its interesting that you  claim that is 'per ancient Hindu philosophy'  .... they dont have a monopoly on that, you realise .  For starters  try TTC CH  42.   Or western number theory , or Hermetics , or some forms of Christianity  etc etc .

 

But why put this here all of a sudden ?  Is it  to say we cant have different psychological circuits as  'pure unitary consciousness is the fundamental substratum of existence,'  if so, why cannot these circuits be  a manifestation of ' its diverse manifestations.'

 

The sayings of two female enlightened masters will help to understand this better...

 

Maybe they had been  reading TTC Ch 42 ?

 

 

[Nungali]

On 7/20/2023 at 7:20 PM, Pak_Satrio said:

 

So Western drug addict = bad

Indian drug addict = good

 

 

No no no  ....

 

Indian   drug addict    ( or anything )   =  bad

 

BUT

 

Pakistani  ... everything   =     GOOD !  

 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Ok so then by your own words drugs are not the problem, addiction is!

 

Are those who can take away any positive benefits they have to offer also able to take away all the negative benefits they have to offer too?

 

 

    That aint how he started this mess though is it .

 

Looks like he argued himself  all the way around and back to what we where saying in the first place     

[thelerner]

I think it's a mistake to put all drugs in the same category, especially when it comes to addiction.  They differ.  Alcohol, heroine, tobacco are all very physically addictive.  MJ can be psychologically addictive, but not so much physically. 

 

Drugs being used honestly in a religious ritual should be judged differently than a casual user looking for a high.  When something is held as sacred with a long tradition of use, it's much less likely to be abused.   A Western problem is we throw away the tradition and discipline and tend to use and abuse the drug.  Good example is tobacco, sacred to many Indian tribes.  We get addicted, they used it for ceremonies.  

 

The naga sadhus are an amazing group.  They link marijuana to Shiva and from my limited research may smoke it daily.  Yet their extreme asceticism puts them in a category imo, beyond 'dopers'.  To my Western eyes they are a mix of holy and crazy.  (I expect in their eyes I'd merely be crazy)  It'd be fascinating to study their beliefs in depth.  

 

Long ago I read a book, I believe about this group.  It didn't mention drugs but talked about a practice some of them had about pointing straight up.  24/7/365 an arm and it's finger pointed straight up, awake and asleep.  The straighter the more holy.  A bizarre, debilitating practice.  To achieve it points to a will and persistence that's nearly superhuman.  Powered by unwavering faith yet in my eyes pointless.  

 

I intuit describing my day and actions to one of them, would elicit a similar feeling of Why and Pointlessness.  Which makes them valuable as a prism into human and my own life.  

Edited July 21, 2023 by thelerner

[C T]

Not realising the impediment, some spiritual practitioners resort to using soft drugs under the misguided notion that doing so augment the practice. 

 

Perhaps they're stuck, or perhaps they're weak, unable to cope with being stuck despite years of austerities. When a whole sect becomes dependent on a substance, you bet there'll be efforts made to normalise, or even idealise, the dependency. Society as a whole does this too, in a general sense, for various other mass beliefs and delusions. 

 

No wonder J. Krishnamurti said its no measure of health to be well adjusted to a sick society. 

[Ajay0]

20 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Ok so then by your own words drugs are not the problem, addiction is!

 

 

Well, I know of yogis who have taken drugs and alcohol in large quantities without being the least affected or loss of sobriety. 

 

They did not develop cravings for the same,  or lose their mental clarity. 

 

But this is not the norm for general humanity, for whom the chances for addiction, anti-social behavior, poor physical and mental health and other issues is high. 

 

Quote

Are those who can take away any positive benefits they have to offer also able to take away all the negative benefits they have to offer too?

 

Well, there are yogis like Shirdi Sai Baba and Bharat Thakur who smoked hookah and cigars to relax without any of the negative benefits. They were perfectly okay if they did not have the same.

[Ajay0]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

So, now you are saying the stoned state is okay as long as religious rules and regulations are followed .  You seem to have changed the thrust of your argument .   You where saying it is a false state, not like meditation  .  But apparently it isnt   the drug itself now .... but the user and method .

 

 

Cannabis is the only drug sanctioned in certain sects of Hinduism connected with Shaivism.  It is also associated with lower addiction levels compared to alcohol and nicotine.  

 

It can help as an aid to meditation in certain settings, and provided it is supplemented by meditation and hard austerities. This is the doctrine followed by Naga Sadhus, but what do westerners have for the same ! 

 

They do not have any holistic theological doctrine for which the drug becomes a stepping stone rather than an obstacle. 

 

Even snake venom has therapeutic properties when it is properly used , and it is in this manner that the Naga sadhus use cannabis. 

 

Quote

That happens in the west too ;  you smoke dope all day , you will end up not owning much, having no girl friend , be homeless , have little food .... and if you going to spend all day sitting in the street like that .... may as well take up meditating .   

 

Well, they have my sympathies. 

 

But it is hard to meditate and be aware or mindful, when your mind is filled with cravings for drugs, and without the necessary yama niyamas ( rules and regulations attending meditation practice).

 

 

Quote

 

Eh ?   How did that happen ?    Why does  that 'enter the picture' now ?   Because I mentioned the valid classification of Exo-psychology regarding psychological states and  psycho-active drugs ?  All that does is show that the west understands the effects of different types of drugs  better  and not classify being drunk and stoned or tripping as the same thing .

 

And I do believe various philosophies in India explore and name different psychological states , no ?   But that is where  ' un scientific spirituality '  enters the picture .... yes ?

 

 

Lol. 

 

Advaitan and vedic philosophies are time-tested philosophies milleniums old. 

 

Many ancient, medieval and modern enlightened masters around the world have testified to the validity of these philosophies from the vantage point of enlightenment. 

 

The state of enlightenment is beyond all psychological states. That is why western psychology still does not have a clue on how to treat depression effectively because they are stuck in the mind and psychology. It is like a gardener tending to the branches and leaves instead of the roots. 

 

Quote

Maybe they had been  reading TTC Ch 42 ?

 

Tao Te Ching, Dhammapada , Upanishads were created by enlightened masters who were able to perceive existence from the vantage point of enlightenment. 

 

Anandamayi Ma and Shivayogini Matha did not receive much education beyond the third or fourth grade in those times. But after enlightenment, they attained wisdom and knowledge through experiential understanding and communicated the same.

 

They did not spend any effort in attaining intellectual understanding, but they were more wiser and knowledgeable than the scholars and pundits around who used to come in large numbers to learn from them and clarify their own doubts.

 

An analogy is that of successfully climbing to the summit of the mountain.  You can then see the view clearly instead of relying on written accounts of the same.  This is why the sayings of these enlightened sages are quite similar even though they may be placed in different points in space and time. 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Ajay0

[silent thunder]

ack ackack ackack

ackack ackack ackackack

ackackack ack ack

[C T]

@Ajay0 the 2 yogis you mentioned above that smoke hookah and cigars to relax... are you sure about this? In your opinion,  enlightened masters are above and beyond laymen's frailties around substances... but here you're saying those 2 esteemed gurus are somehow, in their 'clean' state, prone to agitations that require external relaxation downers? Do you know if they would've encouraged their student followers to do likewise?

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by C T

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

4 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

 

Well, I know of yogis who have taken drugs and alcohol in large quantities without being the least affected or loss of sobriety. 

 

They did not develop cravings for the same,  or lose their mental clarity. 

 

But this is not the norm for general humanity, for whom the chances for addiction, anti-social behavior, poor physical and mental health and other issues is high. 

 

 

Well, there are yogis like Shirdi Sai Baba and Bharat Thakur who smoked hookah and cigars to relax without any of the negative benefits. They were perfectly okay if they did not have the same.

So there you go. You agree with us that drugs and alcohol are not the true problem, addiction is. Now you can stop spamming the site with anti drug posts, we have reached a conclusion.

Case closed

[Ajay0]

1 hour ago, C T said:

@Ajay0 the 2 yogis you mentioned above that smoke hookah and cigars to relax... are you sure about this? In your opinion,  enlightened masters are above and beyond laymen's frailties around substances... but here you're saying those 2 esteemed gurus are somehow, in their 'clean' state, prone to agitations that require external relaxation downers? Do you know if they would've encouraged their student followers to do likewise?

 

 

 

Shirdi Sai Baba and Bharat Thakur used hookah and cigars to relax or probably to keep themselves warm.  Both had lived in cold climates and hard conditions in India,  ( Thakur grew up in the Himalayas in sub-zero temperatures )and probably smoked to keep themselves warm or to relax. These are exceptions I know. 

 

Quote

but here you're saying those 2 esteemed gurus are somehow, in their 'clean' state, prone to agitations that require external relaxation downers? Do you know if they would've encouraged their student followers to do likewise?

 

 It was not inner agitation, but probably need for physical relaxation or warmth that resulted in the same.  They have not encouraged their students to do the same.  

Edited July 22, 2023 by Ajay0

[Ajay0]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

So there you go. You agree with us that drugs and alcohol are not the true problem, addiction is. Now you can stop spamming the site with anti drug posts, we have reached a conclusion.

 

 I stated that drugs and alcohol are not a problem for enlightened masters or accomplished yogis. There were some who took it in exceptional circumstances , just like Neem Karoli Baba took a heavy dosage of drugs to convince Ram  Dass of its superficiality. 

 

It is an obvious problem for untrained minds though as I have shown in my threads on the subject. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Case closed

 

edit: sorry i had to open it once more 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Pak_Satrio

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

47 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

 

Shirdi Sai Baba and Bharat Thakur used hookah and cigars to relax or probably to keep themselves warm.  Both had lived in cold climates and hard conditions in India,  ( Thakur grew up in the Himalayas in sub-zero temperatures )and probably smoked to keep themselves warm or to relax. These are exceptions I know. 

Lmao are you for real? Hookah and cigars were invented in hot climates, no one smokes them to keep warm. 
 

Please stop talking about things you know nothing about.

[Ajay0]

5 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Lmao are you for real? Hookah and cigars were invented in hot climates, no one smokes them to keep warm. 

 

 

I have come across people in cold climatic conditions in India, who were smoking to keep themselves warm.  I was mostly into hot soups for the same.

 

Quote

Please stop talking about things you know nothing about.

 

I would ask the same of you.