Wu-Wei: What is it? How does it feel? Share examples?

[Daniel]

Hello, I would like to read about your understanding of the concept of wu-wei?

 

Intellectually, what is it?  Emotionally, how does it make you feel?  When you observe it in the world, what does it look like?  Please share examples, practical or theoretical?

 

Thank you,

[oak]

I guess it feels just like this

 

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, oak said:

I guess it feels just like this:  Johnny B.Good

 

 

~confused~  go johnny, go, go ,go ???  that's what wu-wei feels like to you???

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Daniel

[oak]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

 

 

~confused~  go johnny, go, go ,go ???  that's what wu-wei feels like to you???

 

Johnny had little instruction but was spontaneous playing his guitar. Persevering in doing what felt good and right for him turned him into a success. There, simple and profound. 

That is why I gave you a song instead of a rational answer, to try to make you feel it somehow.

[Daniel]

19 minutes ago, oak said:

 

Johnny had little instruction but was spontaneous playing his guitar. Persevering in doing what felt good and right for him turned him into a success. There, simple and profound. 

That is why I gave you a song instead of a rational answer, to try to make you feel it somehow.

 

Thank you,  the feeling I get from the song, is, like I said, go,go,go.  I think that's common.  And seems to contradict what I would expect from wu-wei.

 

And to be honest, I wasn't sure if you were taking my request for input seriously.  Yes, he could play guitar like ringing a bell.  Chuck Berry is also known for a famous song about looking for a volunteer to play with his ding-a-ling-a-ling.  

 

If I understand, the fundemental aspects that you are indentifying, are coming from the lyrics, not the feeling from the song.  Those aspects are?

 

1. lack of institutional indoctrination?
2. spontaneity?
3. doing what feels good to the individual as a method for success?

 

If I have interpretted this correctly, thank you very much for your input.  If not please correct me?

 

I have no problem with listening to a song and appreciating the feeling that is being produced.  Hopefully you can appreciate that "go,go,go" doesn't sound like wu-wei to me?  The guitar riff is "pushing", isn't it?

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Daniel

[oak]

27 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

 Hopefully you can appreciate that "go,go,go" doesn't sound like wu-wei to me?  The guitar riff is "pushing", isn't it?

 

 

I kinda like the "go,go,go" it sounds to me as grow, grow, grow in the cultivation of your personal Dao 🙂 I can live with your deslike of the guitar riff 😁

I think you got the message I wanted to deliver now.

My best wishes, Daniel.

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by oak

[Daniel]

10 minutes ago, oak said:

 

I kinda like the "go,go,go" it sounds to me as grow, grow, grow in the cultivation of your personal Dao 🙂 I can live with your deslike of the guitar riff 😁

I think you got the message I wanted to deliver now.

My best wishes, Daniel.

 

 

I love that song!  I love the riff!  I'm trying to think of something that I would consider producing the feeling of what wu-wei means to me.

 

The first thing that comes to mind is Miles Davis "Agharta" - recorded live and improvised and no lyrics.  But that's me, that's what just pops into my head.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agharta_(album)

 

"Davis led a septet at the concert; saxophonist Sonny Fortune, bassist Michael Henderson, and guitarist Pete Cosey were given space to improvise against a dense backdrop of riffs, electronic effects, cross-beats, and funk grooves from the rhythm section"

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Daniel

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

Hello, I would like to read about your understanding of the concept of wu-wei?

 

Intellectually, what is it?  Emotionally, how does it make you feel?  When you observe it in the world, what does it look like?  Please share examples, practical or theoretical?

 

Thank you,

This is my example: suppose there is the monkey mind and a higher self, both at sea in a boat, and the sea is stormy. To me it is the monkey minds job to calm the mental/emotional stormy sea which then gives the whole system the chance to allow the underlying current (the Dao) to move the boat to shore. It’s the higher self at this point that is aware that nothing needs to be done to effectively get to the shore as the current is moving the boat, while the monkey mind that up to this point has been actively working on calming the storm doesn’t have the knowledge or sense to allow this to happen. It is of course imperative at this point that the monkey mind is trained enough to trust these other forces (Wu-wei), though only after its initial effort (you-wei). 

[liminal_luke]

I think all art is rooted in wu-wei -- that's what makes it art. So yeah, Johnny B. Good counts for sure. But what we see and experience is not wu wei itself but only it's echo as it comes spinning out of us in creativity or kindness or an inspired decision.  I don't know what wu wei in it's purest form feels like.  Most likely nobody on the board does, though I've learned not to underestimate the Bums.  

[Daniel]

Thank you @Bindi and @liminal_luke :)

[stirling]

Wu Wei is how action would appear if you had the realization that your separateness as a "self" was a delusion, and you could see things as they really are. The world already flows spontaneously from its empty source, it is only thinking mind creates the imagining of a "self" with its own agency. Only the Dao can ride a bike, play the drums, or even breathe... it would be impossible for the thinking mind to divide up and control the body through all of the discreet and numberless steps necessary. It is possible to notice Wu Wei in meditation, especially with the guidance of a teacher.

 

Quote

You have only to rest in inaction and things will transform themselves. Smash your form and body, spit out hearing and eyesight, forget you are a thing among other things, and you may join in great unity with the deep and boundless. - Zhuangzi, The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu

 

[Indiken]

I guess wu wei is when you retreat to move forward. yin produces yang and vice versa.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Indiken

[Indiken]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

Wu Wei is how action would appear if you had the realization that your separateness as a "self" was a delusion, and you could see things as they really are. The world already flows spontaneously from its empty source, it is only thinking mind creates the imagining of a "self" with its own agency. Only the Dao can ride a bike, play the drums, or even breathe... it would be impossible for the thinking mind to divide up and control the body through all of the discreet and numberless steps necessary. It is possible to notice Wu Wei in meditation, especially with the guidance of a teacher.

 

 

 

stirling, as far I read your posts, everything for you is filtered by the same your subjective idea, again and again. Seem like the same idea is an answer to you for all the problems. 

[liminal_luke]

5 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

 the same idea is an answer to you for all the problems. 

 

Your post seems to suggest stirling's consistency is a drawback but what if he's on to something?  Many problems, one solution.  

Edited July 24, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Indiken]

14 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Your post seems to suggest stirling's consistency is a drawback but what if he's on to something?  Many problems, one solution.  

 

Good for stirling, I guess.  

[oak]

14 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I love that song!  I love the riff!  I'm trying to think of something that I would consider producing the feeling of what wu-wei means to me.

 

The first thing that comes to mind is Miles Davis "Agharta" - recorded live and improvised and no lyrics.  But that's me, that's what just pops into my head.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agharta_(album)

 

"Davis led a septet at the concert; saxophonist Sonny Fortune, bassist Michael Henderson, and guitarist Pete Cosey were given space to improvise against a dense backdrop of riffs, electronic effects, cross-beats, and funk grooves from the rhythm section"

 

 

Maybe, yes... what makes me wonder is the ammont of drugs used while recording that album...

[Taoist Texts]

19 hours ago, Daniel said:

Hello, I would like to read about your understanding of the concept of wu-wei?

why? what for?

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, stirling said:

You have only to rest in inaction and things will transform themselves. Smash your form and body, spit out hearing and eyesight, forget you are a thing among other things, and you may join in great unity with the deep and boundless. - Zhuangzi, The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu

 

Thank you.  If possible, are you able to provide more of this as a direct quotation from the Zhuangzi?  In my studies, especially in daoism, the surrounding words/statments are vital in understanding the intentions of the source.  Because of this, I am very cautious about one-line quotations.  Even a chapter# would enable me to locate the entire passage for myself.

 

Thank you again for your valuable input, btw.  I sincerely appreciate it. 

[Daniel]

52 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

why? what for?

 

I feel like I understand it, and I feel like I can recognize it when I see it.  But, in many ways I lead a sheltered life.

 

More data is good.  Sharing is caring

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, oak said:

 

Maybe, yes... what makes me wonder is the ammont of drugs used while recording that album...

 

Excellent point, and thank you.  I still like the album eventhough I'm what some would call a "straight-edge".  At least that's what it was called in the rave-scene in the 90s.  In college I had a different label, "The confirmed designated driver."

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Indiken said:

stirling, as far I read your posts, everything for you is filtered by the same your subjective idea, again and again. Seem like the same idea is an answer to you for all the problems. 

 

The non-dual principle is at the heart of many "Eastern" philosophical and spiritual traditions. Daoism is one amongst them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonduality_(spirituality)

 

Wu Wei is one of the conceptual lenses on the non-dual perspective commonly discussed in Daoism. 

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

stirling, as far I read your posts, everything for you is filtered by the same your subjective idea, again and again. Seem like the same idea is an answer to you for all the problems. 

 

sometimes simple is good, sometimes it's not?

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Your post seems to suggest stirling's consistency is a drawback but what if he's on to something?  Many problems, one solution.  

 

What I see, sadly, often in a stereotypical western mindset, is creating a problem for the purpose of knocking it down, reinforcing a rigid-self-identity.  The begining of the cycle, though, is accurately identifying a problem or problems.  Those problems do exist.  But once the rigid-self-indentity has solved the problem, it needs to create more-of-the-same or else its own self-indentity feels compromised ( eventhough it isn't )

 

I am not immune to this.  I freely admit it.  My sincere hope is that if I can sustain this acknowledgement about myself, and put it into action in my life, it will prevent the condition I've described above for myself.  But it will be an on-going process.  Hopefully with practice it will become easier, and more automatic, but I don't think I can trust myself to permit it to become fully autonomous and reflexive.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Daniel

[stirling]

13 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Thank you.  If possible, are you able to provide more of this as a direct quotation from the Zhuangzi?  In my studies, especially in daoism, the surrounding words/statments are vital in understanding the intentions of the source.  Because of this, I am very cautious about one-line quotations.  Even a chapter# would enable me to locate the entire passage for myself.

 

Thank you again for your valuable input, btw.  I sincerely appreciate it. 

 

The works of Zhuangzi are available for free all over the internet. Search:

 

Zhuangzi The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu

 

In this case the quote is from Chapter 11, full chapter quoted here:

 

Quote

Big Concealment said, "If you confuse the constant strands of Heaven and violate the true form of things, then Dark Heaven will reach no fulfillment. Instead, the beasts will scatter from their herds, the birds will cry all night, disaster will come to the grass and trees, misfortune will reach even to the insects. Ah, this is the fault of men who 'govern'!"
"Then what should I do?" said Cloud Chief.
"Ah," said Big Concealment, "you are too far gone! [僊僊] Up, up, stir yourself and be off!"
Cloud Chief said, "Heavenly Master, it has been hard indeed for me to meet with you—I beg one word of instruction!"
"Well, then—mind‑nourishment!" said Big Concealment. "You have only to rest in inaction and things will transform themselves. Smash your form and body, spit out hearing and eyesight, forget you are a thing among other things, and you may join in great unity with the deep and boundless. Undo the mind, slough off spirit, be blank and soulless, and the ten thousand things one by one will return to the root—return to the root and not know why. Dark and undifferentiated chaos—to the end of life none will depart from it. But if you try to know it, you have already departed from it. Do not ask what its name is, do not try to observe its form. Things will live naturally end of themselves."
Cloud Chief said, "The Heavenly Master has favored me with this Virtue, instructed me in this Silence. All my life I have been looking for it, and now at last I have it!" He bowed his head twice, stood up, took his leave, and went away.

 

(11, tr. Burton Watson 1968:122-3)

 

Zhuangzi The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu

 

The instruction from "Big Concealment" is the heart of the matter (bolded).

[Daniel]

5 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The works of Zhuangzi are available for free all over the internet. Search:

 

Zhuangzi The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu

 

In this case the quote is from Chapter 11, full chapter quoted here:

 

 

The instruction from "Big Concealment" is the heart of the matter (bolded).

 

Thank you very kindly.  I haven't read the Zhuangzi, but I understand, in general, it is a politcal treatise?  Included there are some, powerful and important passages regarding self-cultivation?

 

I would like to spend some time on chapter 11, perhaps the chapters which bracket it as well.  What's interesting to me, just on the initial reading is, these are the words of the "dark concealment" which is advocating "undifferenitated chaos".

 

The cloud chief considers this a "heavenly master", but I am not sure if this "master" is the "only master", and "master" of what?  What are the motives of the cloud chief?  Why would it consider the "dark concealment" its master?  Do my principles and values align with the cloud chief?  Maybe-maybe not.  

 

And then zooming out, big-big picture:  how can a text which is a political treatise advocate consistently for a "dark concealment which is a master of undifferentiated chaos"?  That does not add-up for me.  I would expect that the source of a political treatise to favor order not chaos.

 

Can you offer some insight on this?