Wu-Wei: What is it? How does it feel? Share examples?

[Daniel]

5 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

@Daniel You failed to get my point:

You are arguing with ‘stirling’ while actually there is no argument, you are talking about different things.

Try to respect and accept other views.

 

 

 

I did.  I said I appreciate it.  I said it was true and useful.  Just not always.  But I see no reason to introduce it as daoist.

[Nungali]

'Utilizing the forces of nature via minimum personal effort  and conscious control . '

 

It works great !  Magical .....

 

but I did loose my gardener  .    

[Daniel]

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

but I did loose my gardener

 

Did you look in the shed?

[Cobie]

 

37 minutes ago, Daniel said:

… as daoist. …

 You totally failed to get my point. I’m leaving this thread now. Be well. 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Nungali]

17 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Did you look in the shed?

 

No, she ran off with some guy and married him 

 

I can confirm , practicing wu-wei for one day creates great benefit .... for everyone else ! 

 

Mhe .... if they are all happy   I suppose  I am too  .... ,  < grumble, mumble  .... under breath  > 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Nungali

[Daniel]

29 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 You totally failed to get my point. I’m leaving this thread now. Be well. 

 

I got your point.  But that doesn't mean I need to agree with you.  And I was making a point too.  But that doesn't mean that you need to agree with me.

 

As I said, I will do my best to research the later schools which adopted aspects of Buddhism into their practice to see if non-duality is actually included in daoism.  You seemed to agree with me at first, that non-duality is in opposition to daoist teachings, then you changed your mind and editted your post. 

 

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing.  Misrepresenting a text, though, is wrong.  I don't think anyone will disagree that it is wrong to do that.

 

This is a thread in a daoist forum, asking for input on a daoist concept which is bringing together opposing ideas in a positive way.  If a person is literally not capable of seeing these opposing forces working together, that means this thread, and perhaps this forum is not a place for them to submit answers, but instead it is place to ask questions and maybe listen to what others have to say.

 

I'm not saying that I have all the answers, nor that I have these ideas mastered.  But I am capable of seeing two sides working together with unique qualities.  And I think that is a prerequisite for daoist practice.  I do not think daoism is a syncretic free-for-all.

[Daniel]

19 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Wu Wei seems intimately woven with Tzujan.

 

I'm wondering if wu-wei divided from tzujan produces a form of death?  Not always literal death, but tzjuan, in a way, dies?  It's stifled?  suffocated? forced? coreographed? even ... anticipated?  I'm following the example you brought in my mind, petals are unfolding. When I exclude wu-wei, the petals are being, perhaps, forced open prematurely.  Or they are unfolding naturally and are being, perhaps, held back, forced to be closed?  Both, in my mind represent forms of death.

 

And if tzujan is divided from wu-wei, maybe slavery or maybe even some sort of self-delusion is produced?  maybe-maybe.  Two maybes.  Maybe the non-action is not in harmony with the dao?  Maybe instead it is submitting to some "other" master which is not in harmony with the dao?  But, maybe it is in harmony, and maybe the submission is to the dao. 

 

It's complicated, because, when I consider cause-effect, I consider them in chains:  long chains that seemingly never end and have no beginning.  But, not exactly.  I like the image of ripples that you brought.  Like ripples, eventually they reach the shore, or perhaps another ripple intersects with it, or even a large wave is produced which renders the ripple insignificant.

 

So when tzjuan is divided from wu-wei, in my mind, it's almost like the stream of intuition ( literally, the rippling stream ) dissappears. The stream becomes concrete?  The individual would not be able to recognize what is in harmony with the dao because the qualities that define harmony no longer exist?  And this would maybe produce a slave who is serving an unknown master which not in harmony with their own true nature?  And/or the individual might delude themself into "certainty".  Because there is nothing to interpret, there is no tzujan, there is only wu-wei?   But!  It could be that the actions happens to be in harmony with the dao, even though there is no stream of intuition.  So, it's a maybe for me.  But the odds are, that it won't be in harmony, because there are so many unwise choices compared to the few which are good. Chaos is encouraged, with the slight possibilty of a happy-accident.

 

And then going back to precisely what you said:  "woven".  Maybe when wu-wei is divided from tzujan, in a way, the dao itself is being unwoven?  Like a tapestry?  Instead of continuously being made, it would be continuously being unmade?  Harmony is both being stifled and random chaos is being encouraged?

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

'Utilizing the forces of nature via minimum personal effort  and conscious control . '

 

It works great !  Magical .....

 

but I did loose my gardener  .    

 

Path of least resistance, as opposed to the brute force approach, but brute force is not excluded if it's the path of least resistance?

 

And, stacking the deck in your favor is encouraged?  That's what they're there for?

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

@oak,

 

How about this for the feeling of wu-wei?

 

"... we're one... but we're not the same.  We get to... carry each other, carry each other... one...."

 

Carrying.  How can they carry each other simultaneously?  Yet that's exactly what's happening.   In order to carry it, it needs to be released, to be free, to survive and thrive.  Then this natural survival and natural thriving is doing the carrying.  But it cannot carry anything, if, it's not being carried.  There's a double meaning here.    "it cannot carry anything, if, it's not-being-carried".  "not-carrying-is-carrying".  

 

They're one.  ---->  They're both "carrying"

But they're not the same. -----> one is carrying directly, the other is carrying in-directly by not-carrying

They get to carry each other... carry each other... but not in the same way and this is how they are one.

 

Here's the video in case you don't know it or remember it.   Lot's of great natural/freedom imagery.  Great song too, imo.  Some people don't like bono, though.  

 

 

[silent thunder]

[oak]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

@oak,

 

How about this for the feeling of wu-wei?

 

"... we're one... but we're not the same.  We get to... carry each other, carry each other... one...."

 

Carrying.  How can they carry each other simultaneously?  Yet that's exactly what's happening.   In order to carry it, it needs to be released, to be free, to survive and thrive.  Then this natural survival and natural thriving is doing the carrying.  But it cannot carry anything, if, it's not being carried.  There's a double meaning here.    "it cannot carry anything, if, it's not-being-carried".  "not-carrying-is-carrying".  

 

They're one.  ---->  They're both "carrying"

But they're not the same. -----> one is carrying directly, the other is carrying in-directly by not-carrying

They get to carry each other... carry each other... but not in the same way and this is how they are one.

 

Here's the video in case you don't know it or remember it.   Lot's of great natural/freedom imagery.  Great song too, imo.  Some people don't like bono, though.  

 

 

Hi Daniel

Quite profound thinking there. Sorry mate but at the moment there's no time for me to do that. Will reply when possible. Cheers.

[Daniel]

35 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

Why did the kitty cross the lilies?

 

To get to the other-side.  

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Path of least resistance, as opposed to the brute force approach, but brute force is not excluded if it's the path of least resistance?

 

'Brute force' would seem natural , but  wasted effort is wasted effort .

 

 

 

And, stacking the deck in your favor is encouraged? 

 

I'd say so . I'd even go as far as to say that might be necessary pre birth to be able to embrace wu-wei .

 

That's what they're there for?

 

Which  'they '   are those ? 

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Why did the kitty cross the lilies?

 

 

 

Daobums answer :   Because it was the easiest , less disruptive and most obvious and natural  pathway to the other side .    

 

Real answer :  .....

 

Spoiler

kitty aint crossing nowhere. He is just desperately trying to get back to 'shore' without drowning as someone tossed him out there on to a big lily leaf .... in order to get a 'cute' photograph.

 

[Daniel]

23 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Brute force' would seem natural , but  wasted effort is wasted effort .

 

Agreed 100%.  I'm thinking of maybe, carefully slowly walking through the underbrush.  Or perhaps wearing long sleeves and long pants and just going for it.  I'm thinking long-sleeves and long-pants are wu-wei for me, because it's quicker and, more fun, and even if I pick up a few ticks along the way, the ticks won't kill me and ticks are predictable.  So, I can stop once per hour or so, do a tick check and keep on moving.

 

23 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I'd say so . I'd even go as far as to say that might be necessary pre birth to be able to embrace wu-wei .

 

Nice.

 

23 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Which  'they '   are those ? 

 

"That's what they (the forces of nature) are there for?"  - Sounds like you agree.  Creating an advantage for reduced effort and conscious control.

 

A water wheel might be a nice example?  Stacking the deck in favor of turning the millstones automatically with minimal effort and almost zero conscious thought.  Using the force of gravity and and nice powerful stream?

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

39 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Agreed 100%.  I'm thinking of maybe, carefully slowly walking through the underbrush.  Or perhaps wearing long sleeves and long pants and just going for it.  I'm thinking long-sleeves and long-pants are wu-wei for me, because it's quicker and, more fun, and even if I pick up a few ticks along the way, the ticks won't kill me and ticks are predictable.  So, I can stop once per hour or so, do a tick check and keep on moving.

 

Naked or near naked is  more 'fun' .  I got this feedback after a treck with some Aboriginals ( most of whom have been living a 'wu-wei lifestyle' for several tens of thousands of years )  : " We like walking out with you ."

"Why is that ?"

"We been watching you , you follow the small animal tracks, and walk around things and treat nature gently . "

" I do ? Oh , okay .... but what do others do ? "

" Oh ... they got these big boots on and all the 'proper gear'  and just stomp along not watching where their feet go and not being aware of much . "

 

Quicker ?    Maybe in the short term  ... maybe if you are hungry and running down food with a spear you might be less focused on other things . Not quicker in long term though .  Another little story :

 

They had this 'race across Australia ', just a part of it, in the middle ; three guys , a Euro 'survivalist ' an American 'endurance champion' ( whatever that is ? ) and an old Aboriginal guy . The American decided to go the direct route and since it doesnt follow the natural water supply route he had a cart made with all his stuff on it and a HUGE water tank and a harness he strapped himself into to pull it      .  The Euro guy set off along the route with the waterholes , so did the Aboriginal . 

 

After a few days the American broke down , the Euro was close to it too , they where not in good condition . What about the old guy ? He is a lot older, maybe he is trouble .... we better find him .  But they couldnt , then they got worried . eventually they found him asleep under some bushes . He was very confused . So where the race officials  :  " What are you doing asleep ? This is supposed to be a race ! "  Which confused him even more , until  he realized  the crazy implications involved ;

 

" Wait a minute ," he said " ' do you mean to tell me the other two are walking during the day time and sleeping at night ! ?  What they doing that for ? Dont they realize you can DIE doing that ? Tell them to walk at night in the desert , nice and cool, beautiful, starlight alone is enough to see , sleep in daytime.  "

 

 

Jeeze !

 

( I did it myself once ; roofing- mid summer , it was hell  up there on the new shiny metal. I suggested to boss we quit and come back at night , he was surprised, said ' no one does that ' . I reminded him it was a full moon , so we tried it .   Excellent !  Beautiful night , cool, easily enough light. )

 

 

 

Nice.

 

 

"That's what they (the forces of nature) are there for?"  - Sounds like you agree.  Creating an advantage for reduced effort and conscious control.

 

( Oh ... my ability top split a post just returned  !   )

 

I lolst the context of my statement , sorry , -  I work better if any quote is shown fuller so I can remember what context my comments are made in .  But  it seems to me that  ' the forces of nature are not there to create that advantage ' , I would not say that , myself ...  too .... 'anthropocentric '  ?

 

 

 

Quote

A water wheel might be a nice example?  Stacking the deck in favor of turning the millstones automatically with minimal effort and almost zero conscious thought.  Using the force of gravity and and nice powerful stream?

 

 

Yes.

 

I like the better example of 'crossing the stream ' ; its much easier to first observe what the stream is doing ; its currents , eddies, surges, etc . then walk up stream a bit and go in using the current to diagonally 'flow across' with the current , using the flows and surges to your advantage  to arrive , or even 'be delivered to ' you chosen exit point .

 

Another fav 'Aussie example' , many of us ( beach going Aussies ) have this drilled into our heads as kids ;

"if you get caught in a rip , DO NOT try to swim against it back to shore , swim across it until you get out of the rip and then , in  calmer water swim to shore . OR you might even find a current that takes you back in .

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Nungali

[Daniel]

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Naked or near naked is  more 'fun'

 

Not all bush is the same.  We have stinging nettle here.  Although, it sounds lovely in the right time and place.

 

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

We been watching you , you follow the small animal tracks, and walk around things and treat nature gently . "

" I do ? Oh , okay .... but what do others do ? "

" Oh ... they got these big boots on and all the 'proper gear'  and just stomp along not watching where their feet go and not being aware of much . "

 

It's always a trade-off.  The faster one goes, the less they need.  But if they don't need to go anywhere, what's the rush?  And local knowledge of the terrain always wins.  I'm not a tracker.  But I enjoy "listening to the trail" and imagining what "could-be" that left those signs.  Again, if I'm not on a schedule.

 

And, things grow like crazy around here.  There's lot's of vine maple, that's what is often reaching into the trail.  Super springy.  They don't care about me and my tromping.  I kind of think they like it.  Anything I push out of the way is bringing sunlight and fresh air to anything below.  The fresh air is key because it slows down the moss.  And moss can suffocate a beautiful grove.

 

It's all trade offs.

 

15 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Tell them to walk at night in the desert , nice and cool, beautiful, starlight alone is enough to see , sleep in daytime.  "

 

Some of my favorite memories were night-hikes, full moon, no head-lamp needed.  But... we have cougars here.  And it's not the desert.  So they can be right next to you and you'd never know.  I've seen two.  One at night while I was hiking, and one came right into my camp.

 

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Not all bush is the same.  We have stinging nettle here.  Although, it sounds lovely in the right time and place.

 

Oh ?   They sound nasty . Can they kill a horse though  ( or at least have it thrashing and foaming and rolling around on the ground )  ? 

 

excuse my sarcasm .... we got em here too .   And we got these  as well ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_excelsa

 

 and lawyer vine  .... it is tough and hard to break, has a backward barb that hooks into your skin ( there is an art in removing them ) and if you struggle against them (in stead if applying the removal art ) they can wrap you up ( just like a nasty legal case can )

 

Thing is, if you 'know wu-wei'  you won;t be walking through nettles .... unless you want to collect them for food . - did you know you can pick them and eat them raw ? Straight in your mouth ?  Errrmmm, dont try that unless you know how   

 

It's always a trade-off.  The faster one goes, the less they need.  But if they don't need to go anywhere, what's the rush?  And local knowledge of the terrain always wins.  I'm not a tracker.  But I enjoy "listening to the trail" and imagining what "could-be" that left those signs.  Again, if I'm not on a schedule.

 

And, things grow like crazy around here.  There's lot's of vine maple, that's what is often reaching into the trail.  Super springy.  They don't care about me and my tromping.  I kind of think they like it.  Anything I push out of the way is bringing sunlight and fresh air to anything below.

 

I shall remember that  Daniel - next time I am waiting in a queue   

 

  The fresh air is key because it slows down the moss.  And moss can suffocate a beautiful grove.

 

?  Never heard that before !  I like moss .... it breathes out 0²   ya know .  And IMO makes the rainforest tree trunks and floor all green carpety . And can make a pretty good mattress  too

 

It's all trade offs.

 

Mmmmmmm ....  ?

 

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Some of my favorite memories were night-hikes, full moon, no head-lamp needed.  But... we have cougars here.  And it's not the desert.  So they can be right next to you and you'd never know.  I've seen two.  One at night while I was hiking, and one came right into my camp.

 

and people often ask how Aussies can live here due to 'all of our deadly creatures' .   I might have to watch out for a stinging tree , but  cougars , bears  nah . Unless you further north  ;  crocs .

 

 

 

( wow ... editing on this site has been nutso for a few days ! )

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Oh ?   They sound nasty . Can they kill a horse though  ( or at least have it thrashing and foaming and rolling around on the ground )  ? 

 

excuse my sarcasm .... we got em here too .   And we got these  as well ;

 

I doubt it.  Just an annoyance.  But the stingers, I understand are very thin, and very difficult to remove.  Kind of like sea-urchin.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Thing is, if you 'know wu-wei'  you won;t be walking through nettles .... unless you want to collect them for food . - did you know you can pick them and eat them raw ? Straight in your mouth ?  Errrmmm, dont try that unless you know how   

 

I haven't eaten it, but there is a tea company that makes nettle tea.  I was aware that it has medicinal properties, but I don't know what those propoerties are.  Generally, the same plant that harms has its own remedy?  So I would expect that it somehow is soothing.  Perhaps, that fits with the commercial market for the tea.

 

My favorite forest floor snack here is oxalis.  It's lemony, and wonderful, and grows like crazy here in large lucious blankets.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_excelsa

 

 and lawyer vine  .... it is tough and hard to break, has a backward barb that hooks into your skin ( there is an art in removing them ) and if you struggle against them (in stead if applying the removal art ) they can wrap you up ( just like a nasty legal case can )

 

Respect.  Kapu.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

I shall remember that  Daniel - next time I am waiting in a queue

 

People aren't nearly as forgiving nor springy as a friendly maple... leaves like open palms, with nothing but love to give.  

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

?  Never heard that before !  I like moss .... it breathes out 0²   ya know .  And IMO makes the rainforest tree trunks and floor all green carpety . And can make a pretty good mattress  too

 

Moss is fantastic!  I have indeed slept on moss.  But, it's kinda soggy round here.  Makes a fabulous water filter though.  The varierty here has a bit of iodine in it.  And it's great for other...stuff too.

 

The thing with moss is it will populate in the inner junctions of of trees and then those junctions will rot out.  Then the tree splits apart.  So that's a problem.  Also, when the moss climbs up a tree, it won't produce leaves in that section.  The branches get weak.  And it just is a disaster.

 

Here''s what I'm talking about:

 

 

Just chokes the life out of those trees.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

and people often ask how Aussies can live here due to 'all of our deadly creatures' .   I might have to watch out for a stinging tree , but  cougars , bears  nah . Unless you further north  ;  crocs .

 

I bet you have some wonderful reptiles and insects there?  Also rodents?

 

The cougars and bears aren't usually too much of problem.  People aren't really on their menu.  My encounter wasn't too bad.  It was after my soup.  But a truly miraculous beast.  Bouncy!  That's what I wasn't expecting.  Like a boxer.  But once the soup was gone.  It almost immediately lost interest and rather slowly turned and headed back into the forest.  I wasn't too worried about it after that.  I did eat cold food though in that area in the evenings.  That specific location is where the US forest service deposits misbehaving felines.  The ones that are getting into people's trash and stuff.  So it makes sense that it smelled my food and was drawn to it.

 

We have a friend who was attacked by a bear though ths season.  Nothing major she fought it off.  Had bruises and scratches all over her face.  But no major punctures.  Had bear spray, couldn't deploy it fast enough.  Was on her own.  Luckily in an area with cell service.  Not really sure what happened, but she ended up off trail by about a mile and needed help finding her way back, I guess.

 

The thing is with these animals is, they are unpredictable.  Not like ticks, not like snakes.  When the season is harsh on them, they'll adapt and start trying things they haven't tried before or seen other animals do successfully.  And that's when man-flesh gets put on the menu.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

the forces of nature are not there to create that advantage ' , I would not say that , myself ...  too .... 'anthropocentric '  ?

 

Yes, you're right.  That was wrong of me.  Thank you.

 

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

I like the better example of 'crossing the stream ' ; its much easier to first observe what the stream is doing ; its currents , eddies, surges, etc . then walk up stream a bit and go in using the current to diagonally 'flow across' with the current , using the flows and surges to your advantage  to arrive , or even 'be delivered to ' you chosen exit point .

 

Another fav 'Aussie example' , many of us ( beach going Aussies ) have this drilled into our heads as kids ;

"if you get caught in a rip , DO NOT try to swim against it back to shore , swim across it until you get out of the rip and then , in  calmer water swim to shore . OR you might even find a current that takes you back in .

 

 

OK.  Thank you again.  That's very helpful.

 

[Daniel]

A couple of brief but important corrections:

 

1)  I was confusing the Guanzi with the Zhuangzi when I spoke about a political treatise which contains a few important passages/sections on self-cultivation. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanzi_(text)

 

2)  There is a radical approach to wu-wei which interprets it in a way which sees no differences, no distinctions, and lifts it up as an ideal for promoting anarchy.  Although it appears that this is a modern application in response to a rejecting political communism.

 

3)  The non-dual "experience" is certainly included in daoism.  ( arguably, everything is included ), although I reserve the right to have a a natural spontaneous reaction to it when it is lifted up as the "only way to understand the eternal dao".  This non-dual experience is called "zouwang"  Oblivion(?) Forgetfulness(?) To-Neglect(?).  It seems to be precisely what I said, "favoring WU which is denying WEI".  Seems to have made an appearance in writing somewhat late.  The definitive english text on it comes from Livia Kohn, who happens to be the one who wrote the entry on it in the Encyclopedia of Daoism.  I have not read the book, but searching it for "wu-wei" and "wuwei" produces no results.

 

https://archive.org/details/sitting-in-oblivion-daoist-meditation-livia-kohn/page/n1/mode/2up?view=theater&q=wuwei

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuowang

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Daniel

[Bindi]

Back on wu wei, to me it’s not allowing the ‘natural’ to happen as opposed to the mentally contrived, it’s allowing more spiritual forces to take control. One view reverts to what is natural, to what is always potentially there in the background, in my perspective something new has to first be generated, for example the neidan child, which then takes over operations. 
 

I have the same issue about going beyond yin and yang, it’s not operating from emptiness or void, but something has to be established, a new platform from which to operate from. 
 

My view is not the standard view, it’s definitely not along the lines of ‘we are already enlightened we just don’t know it’, far closer to the neidan view that a spiritual child has to be established. 

[Daniel]

12 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Back on wu wei, to me it’s not allowing the ‘natural’ to happen as opposed to the mentally contrived, it’s allowing more spiritual forces to take control. One view reverts to what is natural, to what is always potentially there in the background, in my perspective something new has to first be generated, for example the neidan child, which then takes over operations. 
 

I have the same issue about going beyond yin and yang, it’s not operating from emptiness or void, but something has to be established, a new platform from which to operate from. 
 

My view is not the standard view, it’s definitely not along the lines of ‘we are already enlightened we just don’t know it’, far closer to the neidan view that a spiritual child has to be established. 

 

Thank you Bindi,

 

If possible, I would very much appreciate reading more about the neidan child.

[whocoulditbe?]

18 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Back on wu wei, to me it’s not allowing the ‘natural’ to happen as opposed to the mentally contrived, it’s allowing more spiritual forces to take control. One view reverts to what is natural, to what is always potentially there in the background, in my perspective something new has to first be generated, for example the neidan child, which then takes over operations. 
 

I have the same issue about going beyond yin and yang, it’s not operating from emptiness or void, but something has to be established, a new platform from which to operate from. 
 

My view is not the standard view, it’s definitely not along the lines of ‘we are already enlightened we just don’t know it’, far closer to the neidan view that a spiritual child has to be established. 

The old gradualism vs. subitism, eh? When Buddhism gets mixed in, the idea of the "spiritual child" seems to be similarly divided between the idea of the 如來藏 rulaizang, translating tathagatagarbha, and the 養聖胎 yang shengtai.

Edited August 10, 2023 by whocoulditbe?

[Bindi]

17 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Thank you Bindi,

 

If possible, I would very much appreciate reading more about the neidan child.

Hi Daniel, to be honest you wouldn’t want to hear about the neidan child from me, much better to go with the acknowledged neidan masters that frequent this board. To me neidan is just one more part of the elephant, and a fairly odd part at that. 
 

My own perspective on the child is that it is the result of shiva and Shakti conjoining for want of a better analogy, which is central channel work.