Lao zi the dragon

[Mig]

I think in the Historian Records for Sima qian,  chapter 63, ‘Biographies of Laozi and Hanfei’ [laozi hanfei liezhuan老子韩非列传]: there is a passage about the Master Kong talking about Laozi as a dragon.

  ，吾知其能飛；魚，吾知其能遊；獸，吾知其能走。走者可以為罔，遊者可以為綸，飛者可以為矰。至於龍，吾不能知其乘風雲而上天。吾今日見老子，其猶龍邪！

I know that birds can fly, I know that fish can swim, and I know that wild animals can run. Those that run can be [trapped in] nets. Those that swim can be [caught by] fishing lines. Those that fly they can [be shot by] arrows trailing a silk string. But with dragons I cannot know if they ride the winds and clouds and ascend to the heavens. Today I met Lao Zi, who is just like a dragon!

 

What's this story all about?

[Daniel]

25 minutes ago, Mig said:

What's this story all about?

 

"But with dragons I cannot know if they ride the winds and clouds and ascend to the heavens. Today I met Lao Zi, who is just like a dragon!"

 

Lao Zi is unknowable?  It's not even knowable IF they have a domain.  So how can it be tracked and pursued?

 

And yet, the author met him.  Spontaneously?

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Cobie

[damdao]

The modifier comes before the modified, so we can leave aside the meaning "malefic", "deleterious", etc.

I think that it could be interpreted as a rhetorical question: "Is he not, perchance, like a dragon?" Implying a "yes" as an answer.

I don't know what the OP was asking, but the wording could have a different meaning depending on the context.

In a Daoist book, it is something definitely positive. Riding the clouds and winds is a favorite occupation of immortals (maybe alluding to an ethereal quality in their bodies).

[Cobie]

.
 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, damdao said:

we can leave aside the meaning "malefic", "deleterious"

 

Which would also contradict the general theme/genre?  Do you think it's fair to expect a biography of this sort to consider Lao Zi as a positive figure? 

 

I know nothing about the author.  A cursory wikipedia search indicates that they are influenced by Confucius.  These are the citations they bring in support of this.  The trend they are identifying is a historian who considers themself duty bound to establish fairness, correct the record, and that fairness and correctness exist.  If I understand, they consider this historian believes that conclusions can indeed be developed per a natural order and this historian is reflecting that in their work.  ( all of this assumes a proper translation ).

 

夫春秋 ... 別嫌疑，明是非，定猶豫，善善惡惡，賢賢賤不肖，存亡國，繼絕世，補敝起廢。
It [Spring and Autumn Annals] distinguishes what is suspicious and doubtful, clarifies right and wrong, and settles points which are uncertain. It calls good good and bad bad, honours the worthy, and condemns the unworthy. It preserves states which are lost and restores the perishing family. It brings to light what was neglected and restores what was abandoned.

 

或曰：天道無親，常與善人。若伯夷、叔齊，可謂善人者非邪。積仁絜行如此而餓死。... 盜蹠日殺不辜，肝人之肉 ... 竟以壽終。是遵何德哉。 ... 余甚惑焉，儻所謂天道，是邪非邪。
Some people say "It is Heaven's way, without distinction of persons, to keep the good perpetually supplied." Can we say then that Boyi and Shuqi were good men or not? They clung to righteousness and were pure in their deeds yet they starved to death ... Robber Zhi day after day killed innocent men, making mincemeat of their flesh ... But in the end he lived to a great old age. For what virtue did he deserve this? ... I find myself in much perplexity. Is this so-called "Way of Heaven" right or wrong?

 

 蘇秦兄弟三人，皆游說諸侯以顯名，其術長於權變。而蘇秦被反閒以死，天下共笑之，諱學其術。 ... 夫蘇秦起閭閻，連六國從親，此其智有過人者。吾故列其行事，次其時序，毋令獨蒙惡聲焉。
 Su Qin and his two brothers all achieved fame among the feudal lords as itinerant strategists. Their policies laid great stress upon stratagems and shifts of power. But because Su Qin died a traitor's death, the world has united in scoffing at him and has been loath to study his policies ... Su Qin arose from the humblest beginnings to lead the Six States in the Vertical Alliance, and this is evidence that he possessed an intelligence surpassing the ordinary person. For this reason I have set forth this account of his deeds, arranging them in proper chronological order, so that he may not forever suffer from an evil reputation and be known for nothing else.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian

 

For me, I am focusing on the contrast between what is natural, "[The seasons] distinguish ... settle right and wrong." And what is, maybe unnatural(?) "Some people say... heavens way is without distinction..."

 

"Some people say..." is a polite form of dissent?  If so, Sima Qian is favoring the seasons which "settles points and uncertainty".  This would further support that their writing would take a firm position on Lao Zi's mysterious origins.

 

Kind of a fun idea?  firmly-mysterious?  or certainly-mysterious?  certainly-uncertain?   

 

1 hour ago, damdao said:

[a dragon riding on the clouds] it is something definitely positive

 

Are there any common images or symbols which might indicate "malefic", "deleterious"?

 

Thank you,

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Daniel

[damdao]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

That’s the rule in modern Chinese. This is not the case in Classical Chinese, there it can come either before or after. Grammar is extremely important in reading classical. The classical grammar was different from the modern one. 

 

Sorry , but I think that you are mistaken. 

In Classical Chinese more than in Modern Chinese, there are no word classes per se, so position is all important in determining if you are before a verb, a noun or an adjective (or any other class). So, if you change the order you change the meaning, the function and the class, even the pronunciation can change.

What it is more free are the coordinations, sometimes you cannot say if it is a word or two words, classical examples are 神仙, 鬼仙 that could be interpreted as two words coordinated or one word.

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, damdao said:

Sorry , but I think that you are mistaken.

You’re right, I looked it up: modifiers, such as adjectives and adverbs, precede the word they modify. I removed my posts.
 

I had this in mind: 道善 - the way is good. 

I looked it up (Bryan Van Norden, ‘Classical Chinese for Everyone’, page 46); my mistake, that’s not an adjective, that’s noun + stative verb. 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

12 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I think this is what applies here. 龍 邪 - his dragon is unorthodox/malefic.

 

What do you think this implies about the author's dispostion towards Lao Zi?

[Cobie]

 

老 子  其 猶 龍 邪 lǎozi, qí yóu lóng xié 

Lao Zi’s principle: the emperor is malefic.

 

~~~
Kroll 

 

猶 < interchangeable with 猷 you2 … principle > 

 

龍

< emblematic of celestial and imperial power >

 

邪

< unorthodox; 

malefic;

ye2 sentence-final interrogative GP equivalent to 也+乎 >

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Cobie

[damdao]

Here we have another translation that matches the first possibility ofered by @Cobie that of a question, it is from The Grand Scribe's Records, volume VII, Nienhauser, ed., Cheng, Lu, Nienhauser and Reynolds, transl.:

 

[Cobie]

Re. the author 

“Sima grew up in a Confucian environment,

and Sima always regarded his historical work as an act of Confucian filial piety to his father.

Emperor Wu … sentenced Sima to death.

At that time, execution could be commuted either by money or castration.

Since Sima did not have enough money to atone his "crime", he chose the latter …

[His ‘crime’ was unrelated to his writings about Laozi.] 

Sima Qian ( c. 145 – c. 86 BC)”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian#:~:text=Sima grew up in a,existed in the Han dynasty. 
 

“During the Han Dynasty, emperor Wu Di (reigned 141–87 B.C.E.)

made Confucianism the official state ideology.”
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/confucianism/ 
 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

5 hours ago, damdao said:

… In a Daoist book, it is something definitely positive. Riding the clouds and winds is a favorite occupation of immortals (maybe alluding to an ethereal quality in their bodies).

True. But apparently not always:

”… the Chinese dragon was also a demonic and monstrous creature. … The descriptions of the dragon as a monstrous creature, though eclipsed by the prevalent accounts of its auspicious nature, are widely present in ancient Chinese literature. … Wang Chong’s Lun Heng records a demonic yellow dragon encountered by the early sage king Yu 禹 …”

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40636-015-0025-y  

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

34 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Maybe not. 
“Sima grew up in a Confucian environment, and Sima always regarded his historical work as an act of Confucian filial piety to his father.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian#:~:text=Sima grew up in a,existed in the Han dynasty. 

 

Yes, I quoted this article as well earlier today.

 

Please help me understand what it is about "an act of Confucian filial piety to his father." would result in not having a positive dispostion towards LaoTzi?  Or is there something else I'm missing?

 

I just did a quick search to see if there was a rivalry, and this is what I found:

 

Laozi served as a keeper of archival records at the court of Zhou. Confucius (551–479 B.C.E.) had consulted him on certain ritual matters, we are told, and praised him lavishly afterward (Shiji 63). This establishes the traditional claim that Laozi was a senior contemporary of Confucius.

 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/#:~:text=Laozi served as a keeper,a senior contemporary of Confucius.

 

This is indicating to me that someone who is influenced by Confucius would also have the same positive dispostion.  But please correct me if I'm pointing in the wrong direction.  Sincerely.

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Daniel

[damdao]

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Please help me understand what it is about "an act of Confucian filial piety to his father." would result in not having a positive dispostion towards LaoTzi?  Or is there something else I'm missing?

 

 

The thing is that the writing of the historical records was commended to his father Sima Tan. As his father could not fullfil the project he finished it. But... he had his setbacks due to political issues, he was even castrated.

Although he was confucian (so to say) his adversary were the legalist not the daoists. If I not mistaken, he devised the distinction between philosophical Daoism (Dao Jia) and religiuos Daoism (Dao Jiao). This helped to safeguard the philosophical books such as Daode Jing, Lie Zi, Zhuang Zi and others.

Besides, he was who depicted the first emperor as a sadistic tyrant (because he was a legalist ruler). Truth is a little debatable though. 

So, I think that the reference to Laozi is neither particularly relevant here nor accurate (in the modern sense). It seems to me that he collected traditions and more or less composed a text. His more powerful endeavour was to depict the dynastic system, the characterization of leaders, etc. Political things.

[Cobie]

From the ‘180 commandments of Lord Lao’:

#20

Do not frequent the emperor or his officials;

do not engage in marital or other family relationships with them.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/51119-180-precepts-of-lord-lao/?do=findComment&comment=935075 

From DDJ Ch. 5:

聖 人 不 仁  sheng4 ren2 bu4 ren2 

the emperor is not humane, 

 

以 百姓 為 芻狗 yi3 bai3xing4 wei2 chu2 gou3 

treats people as disposables.

 

On 25/07/2023 at 2:16 AM, Mig said:

… What's this story all about?

 

I think the meaning is in the last words:

On 25/07/2023 at 11:21 PM, Cobie said:

老 子  其 猶 龍 邪 lǎozi, qí yóu lóng xié 

Lao Zi’s principle: the emperor is malefic.

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Cobie