Jasper Lake Maoshan (Jason Read Daoist Magic)

[Nuralshamal]

Dear Dao Bums,

Question for you guys
Do you have any interesting experiences with Jason Read and his Jasper Lake Maoshan Daoist Magic?

I have seen a few posts here on Daobums about his books on daoist magic, but none about the actual daoist magic training with him.

My own few observations
A fellow qigong brother here on the forum that I'm corresponding with notified me about Jasper Lake Maoshan daoist magic training. I checked out his webpages and read all that I could, and am now reading through his book "Practical Daoist Magic".

Webpages:
I found the webpages extremely interesting, and I definitely felt what he's sharing to be real, authentic and substantial. I tried meditating on a talisman he's posted to connect with the energy of "the fire star" or Mars, and within 5 minutes I felt heat pouring into my body and getting heated up. I was extremely suprised how fast and powerfully it worked. I took this as a sign that what's he's sharing is truly legit!

Book so far:
The book is the same story in the sense that it feels very legit and authentic. All the history and mythology he's sharing is perfectly in line with what I've been taught by Master Zhongxian Wu (who I've learnt from for more than 6 years), as is his explanation for yin/yang, 5 elements, 8 trigrams (bagua) stems, branches etc. of course with some slight variations in their personal interpretations.

His beginning practices "to cultivate magical power" is also similar to what I've learnt from Master Wu, namely building the lower dan tien, purifying & strengthening the 5 organ system, "retriving" or calling back the spirits of your organs as well as daily mantras for purification (mind, mouth, body, surroundings, pacifying spirits, calling upon the golden light etc).

The idea of jing/qi/shen as well as mantra, mudra, visualisation and posture is also similar.

All in all I feel it to be very real. What I especially enjoy is that as a westerner he explains things very clearly so that it's easy to understand from a western viewpoint. He also divulges the "secrets" of how things really work and explain the whole process as well as the end result. This is something my chinese teachers never do, they simply encourage you to practice, shoot down your questions, and never explain linearly and in a straight-forward way what things are, how they work, what the process is like, what the result will be or how to measure your progress along the way.

The only thing that really made me stop and wonder, was that at some point in the book he says that 30 minutes before and after practice you shouldn't eat or drink (pretty standard advice), however then immediately after he says drinking "only cool water" is allowed. This is a huge shocker! Everyone knows that Chinese never suggest cold water, it should be either hot or lukewarm. This was a big suprise for me, and made me wonder and question how everything could be feel so real and authentic, yet this one basic thing was completely "off" for how Chinese qigong/TCM/cultivation usually rolls. Actually it was such a great shock that it made me question the authenticity of everything. Even though the fire star talisman worked (which I felt to build his credibility), and the explanations feel legit too (which also builds credibility) the advice to drink cool water was so off that it made me wonder and question everything about his whole story of training in China & Malaysia etc.

This is what made me write a post here on the forum, I wanted to speak to my dao brothers and sisters and hear your experiences (if any) with Jason Read and his Jasper Lake Maoshan Daoist Magic training.

I look forward to hear from you! 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Nuralshamal

[Nuralshamal]

Dear Dao Bums,

In the past couple of days I've continued my research.

I've now read 2 out of 3 of his books (Practical Chinese Magic and Thunder Magic), as well as watched 3 out 4 interviews on YouTube with him.

I must say I'm now fairly convinced that he's legit. 

I would still love to hear from you guys if you've had any experiences with him and his teachings.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Nuralshamal

[Taomeow]

  On 7/26/2023 at 3:52 PM, Nuralshamal said:

The only thing that really made me stop and wonder, was that at some point in the book he says that 30 minutes before and after practice you shouldn't eat or drink (pretty standard advice), however then immediately after he says drinking "only cool water" is allowed. This is a huge shocker! Everyone knows that Chinese never suggest cold water, it should be either hot or lukewarm. This was a big suprise for me, and made me wonder and question how everything could be feel so real and authentic, yet this one basic thing was completely "off" for how Chinese qigong/TCM/cultivation usually rolls. 

 

Taoist magic is very different from qigong/TCM.  Maoshan, in its turn, is very different from other types of taoist magic.  I wouldn't be surprised if the advice was to drink hard liquor before the practice, as some shamans do, or animal blood, or a psychedelic brew.  Perhaps cool water after practice has to do with the temperature of the spirits invoked, which may overheat the body, which may need a cooling-down.  Or perhaps it's a red flag.  I'm only familiar with Jason Read's offerings via a book of his, so I don't know for sure.  But I wouldn't dismiss him on the basis of this one statement alone, I would need more evidence of un-authenticity.       

[Nuralshamal]

  On 7/28/2023 at 1:40 PM, Taomeow said:

 

Taoist magic is very different from qigong/TCM.  Maoshan, in its turn, is very different from other types of taoist magic.  I wouldn't be surprised if the advice was to drink hard liquor before the practice, as some shamans do, or animal blood, or a psychedelic brew.  Perhaps cool water after practice has to do with the temperature of the spirits invoked, which may overheat the body, which may need a cooling-down.  Or perhaps it's a red flag.  I'm only familiar with Jason Read's offerings via a book of his, so I don't know for sure.  But I wouldn't dismiss him on the basis of this one statement alone, I would need more evidence of un-authenticity.       

Hey @Taomeow, thanks for chiming in and sharing your thoughts, I appreciate that 

Could you share some of your insights and experiences using his "offerings"? And which book of his was it?

I look forward to hear from you! All the best  

Edited July 28, 2023 by Nuralshamal

[Nuralshamal]

Dear Dao Bums

UPDATE:

I've joined MaoShan and cultivated daily for almost 6 months now, slowly but steadily working my way through Jason Read's Jasper Lake Maoshan curriculum.

It is legit!

The only thing I would say if you're going to join, is to pay attention to the following points:

1) make sure you do physical exercise daily,  ideally things like physical yoga, taichi or a moving qigong form to circulate your qi and maintain and strengthen your physical body. I understand why Jason has not included much of this on the online part, seeing that the physical aspect of qigong is very widely available on the market today, whereas the secret, magical and more esoteric aspect he so freely shares is not. So just make sure you tick this off and commit to a daily physical regimen.

2) don't cheat yourself, actually do the exercises in 49 day practice cycles, take your time, feel it, get into it, document it. Go at it with respect, dedication, commitment and as a true, authentic and commited quest for your own personal, spiritual journey.

 

If you pay attention to these 2 points, you are set

I am personally extremely happy and thankful for having found MaoShan - the way Jason teaches and explains complicated chinese metaphysics are simply unparalleled. It's so clear and crisp, I've never seen it explained in a way so easy to understand before. Further, the things he shares are pretty much impossible to find anywhere else.

Lastly, the man is simply incredible - he works a normal full day job besides maintaining the school, and he still finds time to make new lessons for the students, translate chinese works, write and publish books as well as regularly posting never-seen-before bits on magic on his twitter and facebook. And joining MaoShan is a flat rate fee of 108gbp FOR LIFE! For all lessons.

He is truly a giving and sharing person, God bless him

Thank you Jason! 

Edited February 27, 2024 by Nuralshamal

[Nuralshamal]

Dear Daobums,

I've cultivated daily under Jason for more than 1.5 years now, and wish to give you all a warning, which is in pretty stark contrast to my former positive messages.

WARNING
He's a very knowledgeable guy regarding this exceptionally niche subject "chinese folk magic", and he's very good at explaining things to westerners.

You can also get results from all his methods, provided you do daily cultivation in a serious manner, doing the 49 day cycles etc.

HOWEVER, I feel a need to share this warning.

If you see him in his interviews or join some live classes, he looks quite pale and always has big black bags under the eyes. In other words, he doesn't exude the vitality that's usually associated with high level internal alchemy and cultivation. This is of course a huge warning sign, it has also been mentioned on the forum before. Chinese Magic is super tangible, you can physically see and feel it, health wise, money wise, relationship wise, career wise and so on, including health. So him not exuding health is not a good sign at all.

Epic health and longevity is pretty much the unique trademark of the chinese branch of magic and cultivation if you compare it to other systems around the world.

Having cultivated with his teachings daily without fail for more than 19 months and interacted with him in classes, I got two visions I'd like to share.

Dark Entity Siphoning Your Life Force
Firstly, he's connected to some sort of dark spiritual entity siphoning his life force. That's why he looks so pale and black bags under the eyes. In my whole life I never suffered from this, even during brutal army life with zero sleep. Whenever I was in contact with him, suddenly my face also turned pale and lifeless, and I had huge black bags under my eyes. It would last for weeks and even months.

Only after not being in contact with him for several months did I go back to normal.

Secondly, you might know I'm also into Kabbalah and Sufism, which focuses on developing the ego so it gets refined over time and is transmuted into soul. This happens through working with oneself and one's ego actively.

This is not there in the same way in Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism and so on, here you either transcend your ego, seek to destroy it, or just regulate it or tame it somewhat. It's not the very specific a grain of sand into a pearl transformation known from Sufism.

For many soul qualities, there are 2 variants: ego variant (negative, before working with oneself, base state for most people on planet Earth) and the soul variant (positive state, either inherited or developed through inner work).

They're usually referred to using archetypes, just like in fairy tales: e.g. Gremlin (trickster, devoid of fun, only gets joy from tricking and manipulating others), which is the fake ego variant of True Joy (being joyful without cause, just as a natural state), Satan or "The Beast" (hateful and vengeful, wishing to in the end destroy all that is good), which is the fake ego variant of true inner power (actually serving humanity), and there are many variants like that. E.g. lust is transformed over time to fulfillment, anger is transformed to strength and so on.

His ego is a Goblin: meaning he's hoarding gold (all this knowledge of cultivation and magic), yet he doesn't understand the true worth of it. Meaning he's simply hoarding for hoarding's sake, instead of actually applying it. If he applied just 1% of what he knew (he's super knowledgeable), there's no way he would exude this lack of vitality, nor be the victim of some dark, spiritual entity.

Lastly, he also tricks all people connected to him in a manipulative way. This is to "get them off their game", which then in the end opens the person to allow this dark entity to also siphon their life force.

He has a pattern, it never fails. Let me explain and give examples.

Manipulative Mind Games
When it comes to classes, he will announce them. Everyone will pay and mark it in their calendar, spending time and effort to make time for it, looking forward to it etc.

On the day he will post nothing and do nothing, simply wait back until confused people who had looked forward to the meeting start desperately messaging "what's going on? when's the event? where's the link?". This "chaos phase" is where people go into negative states, where they focus their attention on Jason, and this is where the evil entity can come in and feed off of them.

Then he will post an excuse after sufficient people have been negatively impacted and the entity has been fed.

It's the same if you make an agreement to talk with him.

He will set a day.

Then on the day he will wait for you to reach out.

Then he will not respond.

Finally after sufficient energy had been sapped he will cancel and come up with an excuse.

Then you schedule a new day.

On the day he will suddenly ahead of time say "i'm ready now". Then you reach out, he doesn't respond. Suddenly he says "oh sorry, something's come up, can you meet at this  other time instead?". You go out of your way, change your daily schedule to agree.

Then before that time he will suddenly call and say "it's now or never, something else has come up".

So it's a kind of manipulative mind game, and it's each and every time, it's a pattern. It's just not one time, it's every, single, time. And it's the exact same pattern.

It's a method this dark entity can eat the life force of all these people when they "spiritually" depend on him or open themselves to him, and then force them into negative states through the mind games.

Conclusion
So if you're into all this chinese magic, by all means, you can study and learn a lot from the rare materials and methods he posts, but just be extremely cautious if you decide to interact with him personally.

A true master is content, as they practice what they preach and find true inner fulfillment, whereas this Goblin attitude shows that he has not harvested the true fruit of cultivation, namely contentment, chivalry, honesty, compassion and wishing the best for oneself and others (not to mention vitality!!!!).

And it's nothing like the "testing" usually done by chinese masters; this I've unfortunately experienced first hand many times as well, where they test your commitment over time. The difference is the intent (testing to see your true mettle actually with the noble intent of eventually passing knowledge and power on to you, vs manipulating to get someone off their game and let the dark entity feed on your life force).

Disturbingly for a self-proclaimed maoshan black magic master, he might not even know this is happening to him, or that the entity is making him do it. Or even more disturbingly, he might be fully aware, and still cooperate with it for whatever knowledge or power it gives him and consciously suck so many people's vitality.

So be warned and tread wisely my dear brothers and sisters.

Personal Epilogue
I had personally really hoped I could be friends with him and skip this whole terrible chinese mind game culture, which I don't feel suits the straight forward western mind at all. Honestly I feel it's a waste of time. Even if you give someone the most powerful method, they would never be able to use it, as no one has the discipline to do daily cultivation. I see it all the time, I've taught almost 100 people SKY now, opening their chakras, empowering them, and no matter how blown away they are at the courses when they feel the energy, and they feel the boost to their health and happiness, none continue as daily practitioners. It's just a one-off experience, something to tell their friends. I think of these 100, maybe 2 actually knew the worth of "the gold" they were given and still use it daily.

I would love to just talk to a "normal white guy friend" in a direct manner, exchanging experiences and growing in knowledge. Or even as a coach or mentor, seeing your personal life, energy and destiny, wishing you the best, and helping you reach your full potential with a personalized, individual approach.

But instead it's been 19 months of cultivating with a goal of actually going somewhere "real" with Maoshan, instead of the more "pop" (albeit powerful and effective) health and healing qigong that's out there, and I have been blown away at these "forbidden" methods actually working, honestly I have, but I feel it's more due to the 12 years of daily meditation and 10 years of daily qigong cultivation I've already done, which allows the methods to work, than due to mentoring or coaching.

If any of you out there know real masters, with real power, skill and cultivation, who're also "normal" in the sense they don't play games, you can actually talk to them directly, they want to help you, and they have the skills and power to do so, please let me know

Wish you all the best, God bless you, be mindful, stay safe and take common sense precautions on your journey. Judge a person by their actions, which show their true character, not their words, which is just an attempt to show a certain image or facade.

[johndoe2012]

  On 3/27/2025 at 5:33 PM, Nuralshamal said:

On the day he will post nothing and do nothing, simply wait back until confused people who had looked forward to the meeting start desperately messaging "what's going on? when's the event? where's the link?". This "chaos phase" is where people go into negative states, where they focus their attention on Jason, and this is where the evil entity can come in and feed off of them.

 

Exactly what narcissists with entity attachments also do. They confuse you into a negative state to eat your energy. 

[Nuralshamal]

Yes, that sounds very true.

I don't want to bad mouth him or ruin his reputation, he also does a good deed by sharing and translating all this stuff, I don't hold any real grudge, contempt or animosity towards him personally.

I just saw this pattern over many months, and was of course personally hurt by it (my wife freaked out because I had never had black bags under the eyes before), so it is indeed quite serious.

I simply wish to give people a fair warning, so they can be mindful and make an informed and conscious choice

[johndoe2012]

Entity attachment is usually caused by trauma, mostly from childhood. Most people are blind to it. 

 

I work with Merlin and asked Merlin to help Jason with the entity. Let's see if something shifts. 

[Lairg]

  On 3/27/2025 at 6:33 PM, johndoe2012 said:

Entity attachment is usually caused by trauma, mostly from childhood. Most people are blind to it. 

 

My long term observation is that such situations are part of a more complex and organized agenda.

 

For example I know a woman who as a very young child was anally raped by her brother.  When I look at her past lives, anal abuse is a repeated pattern of domination.  And the brother appears in various roles in some of those past lives.

 

The rest of her family are complex too, incarnating together, subject to entity capture over many lives.  The family has had much political and economic power in the past and the apprenticeship for obtaining that power has typically been practicing upon one's family members.

 

The family grouping, over the centuries has been targeted by entities external to the planet that use the family as instruments in controlling parts of the human race.

 

The external entities are part of a bigger system/empire that has cosmic agendas.

 

It seems that both the human race and this planet are seen as highly desirable possessions.

 

Then there is the matter of karma: personal, group, planetary, systemic, galactic....

 

 

Fortunately most humans have a way out: cultivation of the heart

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 09:01 PM by Lairg

[silent thunder]

[stirling]

  On 3/27/2025 at 5:33 PM, Nuralshamal said:

This is not there in the same way in Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism and so on, here you either transcend your ego, seek to destroy it, or just regulate it or tame it somewhat. It's not the very specific a grain of sand into a pearl transformation known from Sufism.

 

Just for clarity sake - the "self"/ego (as opposed to "Self") isn't transcended, destroyed, regulated, or tamed, it is seen for the illusory construct it always has been. It is a realization and a perspective shift into seeing something that is blatantly obvious and was always the case.

[johndoe2012]

  On 3/27/2025 at 5:33 PM, Nuralshamal said:

This is not there in the same way in Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism and so on, here you either transcend your ego, seek to destroy it, or just regulate it or tame it somewhat. It's not the very specific a grain of sand into a pearl transformation known from Sufism.

 

What you are talking about is what I have done through inner child work, healing and therapy to grow up parts of the psyche. 

 

Some do not do it and prefer spiritual bypassing either consciously or unconsciously. 

[Nuralshamal]

  On 3/28/2025 at 12:04 AM, stirling said:

 

Just for clarity sake - the "self"/ego (as opposed to "Self") isn't transcended, destroyed, regulated, or tamed, it is seen for the illusory construct it always has been. It is a realization and a perspective shift into seeing something that is blatantly obvious and was always the case.

Hey, thanks for chiming in!

 

And thanks for clarifying.

 

I like your use of lowercase self and uppercase Self, great way to illustrate it.

 

Of course many viewpoints on this exist in different traditions. 

Maybe I can clarify a bit more what I meant with the Sufi view, which is so unique. Then again, it’s quite similar to standard, western ideas as well, going all the way back to Ancient Greek philosophy too, so it is indeed shared by many. 

 

Eternal, uncreated, unborn individual Self, or individual consciousness we could also call it. Incarnates forever in an ascending manner as mineral, plant, animal, human being and beyond. 
 

It’s always untouched and unaffected by experience.

 

Then of course the well-known universal consciousness, maybe this is the capital letter Self you mean? Feel free to chime in here  

 

However the ‘self’, ego, pearl, what I was referring to before is a created thing, it’s a ‘soul organ’ if you will, the connector between the untouched and uncreated universal consciousness, manifesting as the individual consciousness, contacting or connecting these two eternally untouched consciousnesses (which are in reality One, just mentioning them for clarity) with this physical world. Not the ‘ego image’ we carry in our minds, the true, objective reality manifesting as the physical world.

 

This soul organ, connecting organ if you will, is affected by everything we go through.

 

Childhood, trauma, schooling, you name it. 
 

However, it can be developed, also through spiritual practice. 
 

This secret organ is what allows one to be functional in the world, yet not of it.

 

Not as an ego or mental construct or idea, but as your true soul. 
 

It’s what’s alluded to in all our fairy tales - the individual goes through a journey and ends up transforming to a higher level. 
 

It’s your personal, magical adventure. All the beauty and magic of overcoming the obstacles we go through in life, and the material and spiritual rewards we earn, all are included. 
 

Most western people will never find true soul satisfaction through the eastern denial of a True, individuated self. 
 

I’m not denying it’s possible, of course there are great things to be learnt, but in the end most flush out the baby with the bath water.

 

That’s what I’ve seen with myself, and also from a lifetime in spiritual circles (Hinduism, Buddhism and Sufism).

 

I made a post about this difference between East and West recently, I see it as so important.

 

This unique individual soul organ was what I was referring to earlier, not the psychological construct that is the false, ego-self (lower case, simply an empty idea, no substance). This soul organ is made of spiritual substance, soul, it feels incredibly at ease, contactful, personal and just soul-ful, fulfilling and is referred to as ‘the pearl beyond price’, the Mohammadan pearl in Sufism, and many different forms all over the world, especially as jewelry or alchemical substances. 
 

The above was the ‘cherry on top’, the magical missing piece in my own spiritual journey  

[Lairg]

In the age of Pisces it was common to choose a spiritual path that was isolated, often monastic.  Thus the practitioner could withdraw from most of humanity and focus on union with The Source of All.

 

Generally TSoA was not asked if this was a good idea.

 

It could be that TSoA has some purposes for humanity that are best achieved when the human leaders have united their personality with their transcendental spirit.

 

I have observed that the personal will in humans is an intelligence directed to defense and self-esteem.  Don Juan refers to it as "a foreign installation" but it does have its value in forcing the human to get its act together - unifying its persona.

 

Unification of the persona is one of the preconditions for the transcendental spirit to occupy the humanness.   When that happens the personal will transitions from defense to creativity.

 

The personal will is not abandoned - it is transformed.

 

In the coming age of Aquarius the spiritual paths are more open to group activities.  This requires earlier emphasis on managing the will of the persona.

 

The word "persona" is derived from Latin, where it originally referred to a theatrical mask used by actors in ancient Roman theater.

 

 

Edited Friday at 10:17 PM by Lairg

[stirling]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:19 PM, Nuralshamal said:

Maybe I can clarify a bit more what I meant with the Sufi view, which is so unique. Then again, it’s quite similar to standard, western ideas as well, going all the way back to Ancient Greek philosophy too, so it is indeed shared by many. 

 

I didn't intend to hijack your thread, only to clarify a misconception about the Buddhist view. My apologies if I have hijacked it. _/\_

 

  2 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 

Eternal, uncreated, unborn individual Self, or individual consciousness we could also call it. Incarnates forever in an ascending manner as mineral, plant, animal, human being and beyond. 
 

It’s always untouched and unaffected by experience.

 

Then of course the well-known universal consciousness, maybe this is the capital letter Self you mean? Feel free to chime in here  

 

Yes, by Self I mean the Oneness, or Unity of things, (Brahman, for example).

 

  2 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

However the ‘self’, ego, pearl, what I was referring to before is a created thing, it’s a ‘soul organ’ if you will, the connector between the untouched and uncreated universal consciousness, manifesting as the individual consciousness, contacting or connecting these two eternally untouched consciousnesses (which are in reality One, just mentioning them for clarity) with this physical world. Not the ‘ego image’ we carry in our minds, the true, objective reality manifesting as the physical world.

 

Yes. In Buddhism, anything created is a "Relative" or provisional construct which relies on other things for its reality, seeming to have a reality as a separate thing but always truly an Absolute ("uncreated") reality. We believe we interact in the world as "self", but are always actually "Self". 

 

  2 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

It’s what’s alluded to in all our fairy tales - the individual goes through a journey and ends up transforming to a higher level. 
 

It’s your personal, magical adventure. All the beauty and magic of overcoming the obstacles we go through in life, and the material and spiritual rewards we earn, all are included. 

 

True in Buddhism also , but ultimately any reality of true separateness from the Absolute is eventually understood to be a delusion. Also, I wouldn't say "transforming", it is ultimately discovered that we have always been the Absolute, and that all Relative appearances have also always been the Absolute:

 

  Quote

...form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not
differ from form. Form itself is emptiness, emptiness
itself form. Sensations, perceptions, formations, and consciousness are also like this. ...all dharmas are marked by emptiness; they neither arise nor cease,
are neither defiled nor pure, neither increase nor decrease. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

 

  2 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Most western people will never find true soul satisfaction through the eastern denial of a True, individuated self.

 

As I mentioned before, there is no denial of "self", but an admonition to see how durable "self" is as an object that has it's own intrinsic reality. Is realization that the "self" doesn't exist as we thought it did a realization that is satisfying to a "self"? That wouldn't make any sense, if you think about it.

 

Deep respect to you on your path, and for the well-being and realization of all Sufis. _/\_

[johndoe2012]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:21 PM, stirling said:

 

I didn't intend to hijack your thread, only to clarify a misconception about the Buddhist view. My apologies if I have hijacked it. _/\_

 

 

Yes, by Self I mean the Oneness, or Unity of things, (Brahman, for example).

 

 

Yes. In Buddhism, anything created is a "Relative" or provisional construct which relies on other things for its reality, seeming to have a reality as a separate thing but always truly an Absolute ("uncreated") reality. We believe we interact in the world as "self", but are always actually "Self". 

 

 

True in Buddhism also , but ultimately any reality of true separateness from the Absolute is eventually understood to be a delusion. Also, I wouldn't say "transforming", it is ultimately discovered that we have always been the Absolute, and that all Relative appearances have also always been the Absolute:

 

 

 

 

As I mentioned before, there is no denial of "self", but an admonition to see how durable "self" is as an object that has it's own intrinsic reality. Is realization that the "self" doesn't exist as we thought it did a realization that is satisfying to a "self"? That wouldn't make any sense, if you think about it.

 

Deep respect to you on your path, and for the well-being and realization of all Sufis. _/\_

 

Stirling, there is a human psyche as well. This is what therapists work with. 

 

Buddhism is not exempt from the reality of the human. Which is why you see some Buddhist teachers add psychological techniques to deal with the psyche. 

 

Just focusing on Self is what people call spiritual bypassing. 

 

In VortexHealing we have a transmission to work with the human psyche and do therapy in a way not seen in other systems. 

 

You can realize Self and the psyche will still be that of a child. Which happens if you look in spiritual communities. One example is the student clinging to the teacher instead of growing up and being their own teacher. 

[Nuralshamal]

@stirling

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

I actually enjoy our exchange.

Yes, I agree, this is also the view I was philosophically taught and forced myself to subscribe to most of my life, that we are Brahman or the Absolute. Which I still agree with

I also really like and enjoy Buddhism and see all the benefits it brings, including its views. It's super helpful for meditation and self-inquiry, and really great to go to the Absolute.

However, I always felt it weird and in complete opposition to my own personal basic experience of life, as well as that of the vast majority of people; firstly that the one true God doesn't exist, and secondly the individual as a True Person (as opposed to a construct) also doesn't really exist.

The very first spiritual experiences I had was of this unique, individual Self, the Atman in Hinduism, the Ruh in Sufism, I felt it to be self-evident that this is the basic, fundamental reality for all of us.

A bear, a cat, a fish, they're individuals moving about in the ocean of existence, full of other individuals. All one in the ocean, but each with their unique characteristica.

Just like two raindrops (even though water) are completely unique in structure if you zoom in with a microscope. Similarly with snowflakes, or grains of sand, or even just two rocks.

If you go and speak to people and ask how they experience themselves and their daily life, they indeed experience themselves as an individual interacting with other individuals. 

Of course great scientists and great saints see and experience reality in a profound way that the majority might not, but if what they come up with is in direct opposition to the basic experience of reality, of course we should be curious as to why, and which of these findings it really makes sense for us to take and live by as our own.

Simply to hold it up to our own basic experience and see where it matches up and where it doesn't. Not as a final conclusion, but a temporary hypothesis.

Just to avoid being mindless followers and instead think for ourselves.

And I generally feel (myself included) that it brings more harm than good to take the conclusions of others from thousands of years ago and praise it as absolute truth, even if it doesn't match our own basic experience of life and of ourselves.

I think it should be the other way around: firstly we investigate our own basic experience of life, then we sample the conclusions of the wise (scientists and saints) and see how it helps explain our experience.

If I had done this I would have been a much happier and fulfilled man today, instead of living on group-think (no matter how well-intentioned) for decades.

But of course I had to go through all these experiences in order to find my own truth, which is now resulting in my personal fulfillment and happiness.

It kind of makes sense, that at the end of the day, fulfilling your own dreams will give you more personal happiness and satisfaction than fulfilling the ultimate dream of a complete stranger from 1000s of years ago.

It's kind of like taking a tiger and training it to shave, beg for food, meditate and be a vegetarian, it's just silly. That's not the level it's at. It needs to live in harmony with it's evolutionary step, in Hinduism and Buddhism its personal dharma. Only then will it firstly enjoy personal fullfillment and happiness, but it will also serve it's intended purpose in the cosmos (the Brahman).

Similarly that's what happened to me and honestly the vast majority of white, western people I've seen in my life. They're really a tiger, but force themselves to live like sheep.

Or they're really a fish, but force themselves to live like a lizrd (just to give an example that's more neutral, I see the tiger vs sheep could indicate a bias, which wasn't my intention).

Just meaning that they pursue something else than the basic truth of their life and station (as intended by the cosmos), so firstly they never find true happiness, and even worse, they actually avoid fulfilling their true dharma.

If you're intended to be a lifelong celibate monk on a mountain, go for it. You'll achieve happiness and also serve your dharma.

However, if you're intended to be a businessman, a family man, a warrior or soldier, a security guard, a tantric sex master, a scientist, you'll never find happiness as a celibate monk on a mountain, and most importantly you'll actually let down the intention of the cosmos.

My intention is not to say that any path is superior, as I obviously think it's true for some people to go down that path towards the Absolute, my intention is simply to share my own personal experience in order to hopefully inspire people to think for themselves, and realize that if they're really a bear deep down, go live a bear life, if you're a fish, go swim, if you're a bird, go fly.

Instead of trying to be a cat when you're really a dog

If you're really an Absolutist, go for it! Surf in the Absolute, enjoy the cosmic experience however, if you deep down long for love, great sex, living a sucessful life materially, that's what you should go for, not what someone else prescribed a completely different people 1000s of years ago.

So if your soul is really a Buddhist, go for it Stirling!! glad you're on your true path

[stirling]

  On 3/29/2025 at 1:09 PM, Nuralshamal said:

However, I always felt it weird and in complete opposition to my own personal basic experience of life, as well as that of the vast majority of people; firstly that the one true God doesn't exist, and secondly the individual as a True Person (as opposed to a  construct) also doesn't really exist.

 

Having non-dual understanding replace the assumption that separateness is the base reality IS weird, yes, but it isn't foreign, since it is an experience all people already have at times in their everyday lives.

 

  8 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Of course great scientists and great saints see and experience reality in a profound way that the majority might not, but if what they come up with is in direct opposition to the basic experience of reality, of course we should be curious as to why, and which of these findings it really makes sense for us to take and live by as our own.

 

Anyone curious to see what enlightenment looks like can have it pointed out by a teacher who has seen it from any tradition. 

 

  8 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

And I generally feel (myself included) that it brings more harm than good to take the conclusions of others from thousands of years ago and praise it as absolute truth, even if it doesn't match our own basic experience of life and of ourselves.

 

I agree! This is why Buddhists are encouraged to try the practices for themselves. Buddhism is not intended as a belief system.

 

  8 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

I think it should be the other way around: firstly we investigate our own basic experience of life, then we sample the conclusions of the wise (scientists and saints) and see how it helps explain our experience.

 

In our case, we are encouraged to test a set of propositions by looking at why underlies experience when the mind is still. It is experiential knowledge that truly matters, not conceptual overlays. 

 

  8 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

But of course I had to go through all these experiences in order to find my own truth, which is now resulting in my personal fulfillment and happiness.

 

That's great.

 

  8 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

If you're intended to be a lifelong celibate monk on a mountain, go for it. You'll achieve happiness and also serve your dharma.

However, if you're intended to be a businessman, a family man, a warrior or soldier, a security guard, a tantric sex master, a scientist, you'll never find happiness as a celibate monk on a mountain, and most importantly you'll actually let down the intention of the cosmos.

My intention is not to say that any path is superior, as I obviously think it's true for some people to go down that path towards the Absolute, my intention is simply to share my own personal experience in order to hopefully inspire people to think for themselves, and realize that if they're really a bear deep down, go live a bear life, if you're a fish, go swim, if you're a bird, go fly.

Instead of trying to be a cat when you're really a dog

If you're really an Absolutist, go for it! Surf in the Absolute, enjoy the cosmic experience however, if you deep down long for love, great sex, living a sucessful life materially, that's what you should go for, not what someone else prescribed a completely different people 1000s of years ago.

 

There are enlightened "beings" walking the world that I know that are contractors, librarians, accountants, painters, and more enjoying their lives living amongst people enjoying the world just as it is moment to moment. NO need for austerity, and certainly no need to pretend to "be" anything. 

 

  8 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

So if your soul is really a Buddhist, go for it Stirling!! glad you're on your true path

 

Thank you. I'd say the same for you. No soul to find here, however! I'd call myself "post-Buddhist". No path left. 

 

It is my feeling that there is room for all practices and paths. I only stopped by to clarify a few points about Buddhism. _/\_

[stirling]

  On 3/29/2025 at 11:06 AM, johndoe2012 said:

Stirling, there is a human psyche as well. This is what therapists work with.

 

Some people need the help of a therapist, yes. Buddhism does not recognize, or attempt to work with the psychological model.

 

  10 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

Buddhism is not exempt from the reality of the human. Which is why you see some Buddhist teachers add psychological techniques to deal with the psyche. 

 

IMHO, a Buddhist teacher has no business attempting psychological work. These are two very different and incompatible ideas about what "mind" is. I encourage all of my students to seek help from a psychologist where their need diverge from dharma.

 

  10 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

Just focusing on Self is what people call spiritual bypassing.

 

It CAN be, yes. Buddhism has its own methodologies for working with "bypassing", primarily through compassion/loving-kindness practices. A good teacher includes such teachings and practices from the beginning for this very reason.

 

  10 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

You can realize Self and the psyche will still be that of a child. Which happens if you look in spiritual communities. One example is the student clinging to the teacher instead of growing up and being their own teacher. 

 

It is entirely possible to be an enlightened asshole. Unripened knowledge of enlightenment can lead a student down myriad rabbit holes, agreed. 

[johndoe2012]

  On 3/29/2025 at 1:09 PM, Nuralshamal said:

And I generally feel (myself included) that it brings more harm than good to take the conclusions of others from thousands of years ago and praise it as absolute truth, even if it doesn't match our own basic experience of life and of ourselves.

 

I tried that and it didn't work. I believe from personal experience that we need to heal our broken parts to lead a fullfilling life. 

 

I have interacted with others that show signs of spiritual bypassing, eg not dealing with romantic relationships because that's what old texts told them to do. Totally silly and will lead to what I call the stone face of the spiritual person.

 

Another example is myself. For a long time in daily life I would suddenly suffer from temporary moments of deep sadness and longing for love.

 

I went to a therapist and there my inner child was suddenly seen, heard, validated. I could sense the adult and grown up psyche in the therapist and suddenly because of mirroring my psyche would grow up as well. 

 

This lead to decreased suffering and more fulfillment in life. I think the name 'pearl' in Sufism is a perfect analogy for what it is like. 

 

Because of my own inner work, it has reflected back to my mother who acted like a child also some times. My deep listening to her helped her grow up her inner child as well which decreased her suffering 🙏

[Lairg]

  On 3/30/2025 at 8:50 AM, johndoe2012 said:

I believe from personal experience that we need to heal our broken parts to lead a fullfilling life. 

 

Perhaps it is not an accident that humans have both a spiritual part and a personality part.   Does the spiritual part wish to have a means for working in the outer world?

 

 

 

[johndoe2012]

[johndoe2012]

The soul is ever changing... But ignoring it will also lead to suffering in my opinion. 

[johndoe2012]

  On 3/30/2025 at 9:18 AM, Lairg said:

 

Perhaps it is not an accident that humans have both a spiritual part and a personality part.   Does the spiritual part wish to have a means for working in the outer world?

 

 

 

 

I think it does. Denying the wish is an imbalanced approach, but I know why people are doing it. Mostly because of suffering, to escape it and also from believing the myths of spirituality too much. That realization of the Self will lead to their daily life being totally wonderful.