Unpopular Opinions

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

What is dividing them?  And I would very much appreciate a hint towards a solution?  In your opinion, of course?

 

 

" Love's  sake  "

 

(   "  I am divided  , for love's sake, for the chance of union .This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all."  )

 

The solution is dissolution .     

 

 

[Mark Foote]

11 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Oh well... It's all a matter of perspective. 

 

 

One Nan-yueh went to Ta-chi and said:

"Worthy one, what are you figuring to do, sitting there in meditation?"

 

Chiang-hsi said, "I'm figuring to make a Buddha."

 

At this point, Nan-yueh took up a tile and began to rub it on a stone.  At length, Ta-chi asked, "Master, what are you doing?"

 

Nan-yueh said, "I'm polishing this to make a mirror."

 

Ta-chi said, "How can you produce a mirror by polishing a tile?"

 

Nan-yueh repllied, "how can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"

Ta-chi asked, "Then, what is right?"

 

Nan-yueh replied, "When a man is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should he beat the cart or beat the ox?"

Ta-chi  did not reply.

(excerpt "Lancet of Seated Meditation", Dogen's Shobogenzo; tr Carl Bielefeldt "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation" ed 1 p 191)

 

Now we have yet another solution:  get the ox to go backwards!

Whatever is Nan-yueh talking about!  In my unpopular opinion:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(A Way of Living)

 

 

I encourage myself to exercise presence of mind with the location of attention, and to allow the location of attention to generate automatic activity in the body in inhalation and exhalation, even as attention moves.  That, rather than to exercise volition in the activity of the body (beating the cart).

 

One time Huike climbed up Few Houses Peak with Bodhidharma.  Bodhidharma asked, "Where are we going?"  Hike said, "Please go right ahead--that's it."  Bodhidharma said, "If you go right ahead, you cannot move a step."

 

("Transmission of Light (Denkoroku)", tr Cleary, Shambala p 111

 

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

" Love's  sake  "

 

(   "  I am divided  , for love's sake, for the chance of union .This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all."  )

 

The solution is dissolution .     

 

Thank-you-thank-you.  This looks truly great!

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

ok, but did the historic Buddha have to give up the fun of swimming underwater? 

(via, "relinquish volition in the activity of inhalation and exhalation")

 

My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. He was trained to do so in a manner similar to how they train Navy Seals. They are able to do relaxation techniques and override their body’s impulse to panic. I’m not sure if everyone can accomplish this or if they are outliers. But one important point that I think fits into the topic here. They have to be wary of something called shallow water blackout. They will hold their breath without the panic response literally until they pass out underwater, and drown (even if they are only sitting on the bottom of a pool with a foot or two of water above them).

(“The Case of the Suffocating Woman”, posted on Slate Star Codex April 5, 2017 by Scott Alexander; http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/
commenter “liz”, April 5, 2017 at 10:41 am)

 

In one of his letters, the twelfth-century Chinese Zen teacher Yuanwu wrote:

 

… Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality.

(“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr J.C. & Thomas Cleary, p 84)

 

 

To my mind, Yuanwu is describing something similar to the Navy Seal training: the abandonment of activity in connection with the movement of breath, through continued relaxation even in the midst of suffocation panic. On the other side of that panic, an acuity of the senses necessary to the movement of breath comes forward (including the senses connected with self-location–”it is as open as empty space”), an acuity that lends weight to the stretch and activity of the body (“you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality”).

(my part of the above is from my post:  The Case of the Suffocating Woman)

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Nungali]

 

 

A parable.

 

The fox and the stork had fought for years . They decided to make friends and call a peace . So the fox invited the stork to dinner, but served up chicken in a dish . The stork, horrified at eating another bird, instead of frogs and not being  able to  eat off the flat plate due to its long bill went hungry and sat there watching the fox eat his full .

 

" Ill get even with him." thought the stork and invited the fox to dinner . He served up boiled frogs in a a long necked vase . Which of course the fox could not eat and sat there watching the stork dip his long beak in and  eat his fill . The fox complained ; " What this muck, and this strange eating vessel ... I cant eat ."

 

The stork replied , ' Well, this is virtually what you did to me last week and I went hungry  . I am now doing it to you so you know how I felt about that ."

 

So the fox  contemplated this for a moment ......    and then ate the stork .

[Nungali]

9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Thank-you-thank-you.  This looks truly great!

 

Oh, there is more !  That is just a 'little  summary . 

[Nungali]

although it wasnt my question ...

[Nungali]

 

Apech and Mark Foote  discussing Buddhism .

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

The right crus is stronger, broader and longer than the left, and originates from the anterolateal surface of the first three lumbar vertebral bodies and intervertebral discs (IVDs). The left crus arises from similar surfaces of the upper two lumbar vertebrae and the intervening IVD. 

 

 

Just an unpopular opinion, of course.

 

size doesn’t necessarily relate to importance though. For example, which is more important in reproduction, a relatively huge ovum or a teeny weenie sperm? 

[Daniel]

11 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Oh, there is more !  That is just a 'little  summary . 

 

Yup.  I found a lot based on what you brought.  Just a little nudge is very helpful for those of us that are motivated and resourceful.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Daniel

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Ultimately not divided although effectively so if we are  divided...

I think effectively and ultimately divided. In terms of Shakti/Shiva, posit Shiva as the higher Self, undivided in himself, but undeniably divided from kundalini until kundalini is awakened and raised to the right place and in the right time to join with Shiva. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Bindi

[Nungali]

Unpopular opinions :

 

 

 

'Original Sin' .

 

Which basically is a prejudice ( pre-judgement with no consideration of information or situation ) , a finding and a punishment, not just before any crime is permitted , but before incarnation even happens ! 

[Bindi]

49 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

" Love's  sake  "

 

(   "  I am divided  , for love's sake, for the chance of union .This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all."  )

 

The solution is dissolution .     

 

 

I truly hesitate to ask, but very briefly (pleeeeease) dissolution of what and how is it a solution? 

[Bindi]

14 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Unpopular opinions :

 

 

 

'Original Sin' .

 

Which basically is a prejudice ( pre-judgement with no consideration of information or situation ) , a finding and a punishment, not just before any crime is permitted , but before incarnation even happens ! 

Couldn’t karma be referred to as original sin, that which we are born with though not entangled with some weird god belief?

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Gautama taught three principal cessations:  the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) speech, deed, and thought.

And now the unpopular opinion:  what folks regard as an "enlightened" teacher in the world today, is a person who has acquired the ability to relinquish volition in the activity of inhalation and exhalation as a part of a rhythm of mindfulness in daily living.  

That was Gautama's way of living, before and after his enlightenment, but the cessation of volition in inhalation and exhalation (cessation in action of the body) is different from the cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving (action of the mind).  The latter attainment is the attainment associated with Gautama's insight into dependent causation (his enlightenment).

 

 

This makes me think of wu wei.

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

To say that enlightenment is a burden is to call the spirit of Brahma Sahampati down upon oneself (he's the one who persuaded Gautama to teach, in spite of knowing what a pain in the ass that would be).  It's not so much that the opinion is unpopular, as it is that Brahma Sahampati has incredible bad breath, having been dead for so long...

 

 

[Nungali]

15 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I truly hesitate to ask, but very briefly (pleeeeease) dissolution of what and how is it a solution? 

 

well since you pleeeeeaded  , I'll be brief as  possible ;

 

Dissolution of separation .

 

Its a solution because you are not separated anymore ... its a solution to separation .

 

- 'Solve et coagula' .

[Bindi]

11 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

well since you pleeeeeaded  , I'll be brief as  possible ;

 

Dissolution of separation .

 

Its a solution because you are not separated anymore ... its a solution to separation .

 

- 'Solve et coagula' .

okay, thanks for the brevity  I couldn’t understand because dissolution according to the dictionary is “decomposition into fragments or parts”, also “Indulgence in sensual pleasures/debauchery”. ‘Decompose separation into its fragments’, at a bare minimum it’s an odd way of saying create union, if your interpretation of the sentence is correct. I would suspect debauchery to be more the meaning he was intending given it’s Crowley. 
 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Bindi

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. He was trained to do so in a manner similar to how they train Navy Seals. They are able to do relaxation techniques and override their body’s impulse to panic. I’m not sure if everyone can accomplish this or if they are outliers. But one important point that I think fits into the topic here. They have to be wary of something called shallow water blackout. They will hold their breath without the panic response literally until they pass out underwater, and drown (even if they are only sitting on the bottom of a pool with a foot or two of water above them).

(“The Case of the Suffocating Woman”, posted on Slate Star Codex April 5, 2017 by Scott Alexander; http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/
commenter “liz”, April 5, 2017 at 10:41 am)
 

In one of his letters, the twelfth-century Chinese Zen teacher Yuanwu wrote:

 

… Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality.

(“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr J.C. & Thomas Cleary, p 84)

 

To my mind, Yuanwu is describing something similar to the Navy Seal training: the abandonment of activity in connection with the movement of breath, through continued relaxation even in the midst of suffocation panic. On the other side of that panic, an acuity of the senses necessary to the movement of breath comes forward (including the senses connected with self-location–”it is as open as empty space”), an acuity that lends weight to the stretch and activity of the body (“you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality”).

(my part of the above is from my post:  The Case of the Suffocating Woman)

 

 

ok but a picture is worth a thousand words...

[Nungali]

42 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Couldn’t karma be referred to as original sin, that which we are born with though not entangled with some weird god belief?

 

Not unless your 'karma'  can be instantly resolved in accepting Jesus as the one true and only God .

 

 

 

[Nungali]

27 minutes ago, Bindi said:

okay, thanks for the brevity  I couldn’t understand because dissolution according to the dictionary is “decomposition into fragments or parts”, also “Indulgence in sensual pleasures/debauchery”. ‘Decompose separation into its fragments’, at a bare minimum it’s an odd way of saying create union, if your interpretation of the sentence is correct. I would suspect debauchery to be more the meaning he was intending given it’s Crowley. 
 

 

 

Briefly ;

 

Death is Union .   Of course depending on what you are attached to ;  the physical parts  fragment and decompose ,  the 'other parts' return to their 'source ' , that is the 'greater union' .

 

Both parts 'dissolve ' into greater 'solutions'  .

 

 

 

.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Nungali

[Bindi]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Briefly ;

 

Death is Union .   Of course depending on what you are attached to ;  the physical parts  fragment and decompose ,  the 'other parts' return to their 'source ' , that is the 'greater union' .

 

Both parts 'dissolve ' into greater 'solutions'  .

 

 

 

.

 

 

Surely that leads to the notion that if I kill you I would have done you a service because I brought you to the greater union?  Anyway if karma and rebirth exist death is no final solution. 

[Bindi]

14 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Not unless your 'karma'  can be instantly resolved in accepting Jesus as the one true and only God .

 

 

 

Yes, the definition of original sin would have to be majorly reworked. 

[old3bob]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

I think effectively and ultimately divided. In terms of Shakti/Shiva, posit Shiva as the higher Self, undivided in himself, but undeniably divided from kundalini until kundalini is awakened and raised to the right place and in the right time to join with Shiva. 

 

Shiva/Shakti as transcendent "God" or Supreme Being who is also immanent is far beyond the limitations of form, (including even the soul light form)  thus has no division of any kind including with Kundalini or Shakti,  as a jiva in human/astral form and thus not yet being a fully evolved soul that has merged in unification with the Supreme Being there is still some remaining  degree of division/duality...even if there are periods of Self-realization.  (aka coming and going)

Edited August 2, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

12 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Surely that leads to the notion that if I kill you I would have done you a service because I brought you to the greater union?  Anyway if karma and rebirth exist death is no final solution. 

 

when death has fully died then the Life of life fully lives

Edited August 1, 2023 by old3bob

[whocoulditbe?]

Karma and original sin might both better be called "original trauma," since they cause sorrow and sickness, but do not on their own deserve to be treated with shame.

 

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

" Love's  sake  "

(   "  I am divided  , for love's sake, for the chance of union .This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all."  )

The solution is dissolution .   

Cupis dissolvi.

Edited August 1, 2023 by whocoulditbe?
typo