Unpopular Opinions

[old3bob]

17 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Luke ... Luke ... I am shocked and ashamed that you of all people would think that THE AMULET can be earned so cheaply.  I need more.  For instance if you had revealed that when vacuum cleaning your apartment you had actually discovered an indigenous tribe living in a remote corner of your living room - that would have been the kind of exceptional claim which the panel might have considered Amuleting.

 

 

maybe Luke found such in one of his living room corners during a transcendent mystical vision... but considering his find was of a smaller dimension along with its tiny and vulnerable inhabitants beseeching him not to reveal their existence,  and with him being the good Samaritan that he is he went along with their request to remain hidden from the giant people with big feet.  (Just as Rod Sterling had done for them decades before, alas they still tried to go for walks outside with mostly fatal results)

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Luke ... Luke ... I am shocked and ashamed that you of all people would think that THE AMULET can be earned so cheaply.  I need more.  For instance if you had revealed that when vacuum cleaning your apartment you had actually discovered an indigenous tribe living in a remote corner of your living room - that would have been the kind of exceptional claim which the panel might have considered Amuleting.

 

Wait, wait!  What's unpopular about discovering an indigenous tribe living in a remote corner of the living room while vacuuming?  For that matter, why is that an opinion?

I demand a recount!

[Nungali]

On 8/7/2023 at 3:20 AM, Apech said:

who, why, what?

 

 

<  -  that one there , my Great Uncle,  Alphonse .

[Nungali]

On 8/7/2023 at 3:30 AM, Apech said:

Yes of course it will be an amulet 🪬 which makes everyone instantly revolted by anything you say.  The runner up will get two amulets.

 

Hey !  ... who said you could give my amulet away ?  

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

I don't know the accurate numbers  but there has been a couple of thousand years of various degrees of genocide against various native people, along with however many non-native peoples caught the wrath of inquisitions  and such...

 

Now I am waiting for a 'Christian Historian'  to turn up and start waving the proof around that the church never did that ,,,, it was the secular arms of government .  The Christians 'merely' rooted them out ... then handed them over to other authorities for punishments .

 

Hmmm ... shame they could not do that with their own criminals hiding within their ranks  .

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, old3bob said:

Eureka...here is the most powerful of amulets, just beware of the smiling face which may not be what it appears...

 

I have no idea what that is .

 

Looks like pajamas for a pocket watch .

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Yes history sucks.  Everyone is violent.  Even the Buddhists.  In group preference is hard written into the human mind I think.  War is normal, empires are normal.  Sad but true.  The contest remains as to who has the best formula for belief and living.  As things are best assessed by results the winner is right.  In fact might is right.  But then maybe this is just how the Tao is destroyed in the human world.

 

 

 

 

  My Goodness ! 

 

  You are not an  oligarchic amoralist , are you ? 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

The Rabbis who codified the law believed that the transgressions might have been the cause, or they thought it was a prophecy that was playing out in Deut. 28.  There is an effect for these actions, but it's not a 1-to-1 cause and effect, like boiling water or making ice.

 

Thats immaterial to my point .

 

According to the story, the 1st temple was destroyed for 3 reasons.  Murder, Immoral sexual behavior, and idolatry.  It took around 600 years for the consequences of these actions to occur.  Transgression and consequence are complicated concepts.

 

and those where their  laws which they broke .  

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

OK... I can use other words.  Decree, ordinance, commandment...

 

That still does not explain how they had secular laws and religious laws  , they are just different terms for 'law' .

 

Or if you like , ancient peopleS saw no distinction between  religious decrees, ordinances and commandments  and secular decrees, ordinances and commandments 

 

 

. it doesn't change that these are not considered to be laws like natural laws.  That sets up the human as a deity over the natural law.  That's not what the ancient hebrews did.

 

No human is set up that way,  in what I am saying .

 

 

I know you're not attacking it.  The point is, those ideas were rejected by the ancient hebrews.  I understand that academics and scholars say a lot of things about Judaism, but a lot of it is bunk.

 

Its not specifically about Judaism though .  Maybe by including Judaism as  an ancient religion  that did this, like the others , it feels like something is being 'singled out ' . Its not about Judaism but about the way the ancient mind worked to 'classify' things .

 

 

 

  All one needs to do to confirm it is research all the so-called canaanite/ugarite/akkadian/babylonian connections to the hebrew myths.  It's all ridiculous.   Hebrew scripture was written on animal hide, using a specific ink, it's intended to be perishable so that it, the scripture, does not become an idol.

 

Oh really Daniel  ???

 

 

  Scholars simply don't have anything on which to base their assumptions. 

 

Well, they did not write in magic ink that evaporated .  Thats why we still have books, and research and stuff      like the

 reference I gave you  ... see Butterworth , is a good education , rather essential for understanding what 'happened ' top the mind as it made its transition into 'modernity' .

 

The dating methods used are circular logic. 

 

Nup .  The dating has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about, except the wide dating of the transition in mental view  16- 1700  and that applies to 'western civilization' and not Judaism at all .

 

Often they don't even know the hebrew mythology well enough to make any judgements at all, and virtually none of them know the hebrew language.  They refuse to consult with Rabbis, of course, because they're not sciencey.

 

RUBBISH ! 

" A few weeks ago, we brought together nine rabbis and nine scientists to launch Scientists in Synagogues. We spent the morning exploring the historical, theological and sociological relationships between Judaism and science with three experts.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/2016/07/21/bringing-rabbis-and-scientists-together/

 

and some Rabbis where even behind the scientific revolution I have been talking about ;

 

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/the-hub/rabbis-of-the-scientific-revolution-jews-and-early-modern-science/

 

This seems to be your personal biased opinion , I think I will go with what I learnt from Uni in Anthropology, Comparative religion and Divinity courses .

 

 

[liminal_luke]

Who could have imagined, a scant few days ago, that a thread devoted to unpopular opinions would provide a home for erudite religious commentary, that Bums would compete for mythical boobie prizes, that, fourteen pages in, our most unpopular views would prove such a perversely popular topic of conversation or inspire such graphic creativity.  To put an end to the speculation, yes I did find an indigenous tribe living in a remote corner of my living room and the tribal elders told me that according to their astrological calculations I should open a new Trump Talk thread in the Rabbit Hole.  OK...now can I have my amulet?  

Edited August 7, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

41 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

  My Goodness ! 

 

  You are not an  oligarchic amoralist , are you ? 

How unpopular would that make me?

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Who could have imagined, a scant few days ago, that a thread devoted to unpopular opinions would provide a home for erudite religious commentary, that Bums would compete for mythical boobie prizes, that fourteen pages in our most unpopular views would prove such a perversely popular topic of conversation or inspire such graphic creativity.  To put an end to the speculation, yes I did find an indigenous tribe living in a remote corner of my living room and the tribal elders told me that according to their astrological calculations I should open a new Trump Talk thread in the Rabbit Hole.  OK...now can I have my amulet?  

I have referred your submission to the Amulet Review Board .

[Nungali]

 

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Who could have imagined, a scant few days ago, that a thread devoted to unpopular opinions would provide a home for erudite religious commentary, that Bums would compete for mythical boobie prizes, that fourteen pages in our most unpopular views would prove such a perversely popular topic of conversation or inspire such graphic creativity.  To put an end to the speculation, yes I did find an indigenous tribe living in a remote corner of my living room and the tribal elders told me that according to their astrological calculations I should open a new Trump Talk thread in the Rabbit Hole.  OK...now can I have my amulet?  

 

Nope . because you  called it  YOUR  living room .... you invading westerner !   Those guys where there BEFORE your house was even built ! They just refused to move and your house was built around them .

 

 

.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Nungali

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

How unpopular would that make me?

 

As unpopular  as  Callicles .

[Nungali]

When the British came to Australia, no one really lived here . So they where able to claim it for themselves as 'uninhabited land ' - 'terra nullius ' .

[Nungali]

10 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Nope . because you  called it  YOUR  living room .... you invading westerner !   Those guys where there BEFORE your house was even built ! They just refused to move and your house was built around them .

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

When the British came to Australia, no one really lived here . So they where able to claim it for themselves as 'uninhabited land ' - 'terra nullius ' .

They then sent reprobates and criminals of disturbing aspect and possessing only the lowest cunning to live there for ever after.

[Nungali]

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

They then sent reprobates and criminals of disturbing aspect and possessing only the lowest cunning to live there for ever after.

 

Ahhhh !  Thats why Rene called me a reprobate !

[old3bob]

some people are frozen like stone in their opinions, and won't budge an inch.

2129.webp

[oak]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I live now in a Catholic country - having been born in a Protestant one - and I am learning to relate to the level of 'mystery' still preserved in Catholicism - particularly around the Virgin Mary.  There's a lot of heart in it and an acceptance that there are 'things' beyond the mundane in the Saints and so on.  

 

Being a Portuguese citizen and having received the catholic baptism as a child makes me having to comment on this. It

has been quite an interesting thread in which I'm not participating much due to lack of time. Thanks for having started the riot, Apech.

Don't agree at all that modern Portuguese people are practicing catholics at all. The supersticious part of the population however resort to "catholic magic" when in need, like for example reciting the prayer of a specific saint or going to Fatima ( the place where the Virgin Mary seems to have appeared to three children) hoping for a miracle. Unfortunately the catholic church never did much directly to make people grow in their faith. You will find the old lady in church very knowing of the rituals to invoke the protection of a multitude of saints but when asked what Jesus said regarding this or that matter, totally unaware of the religion she should be practicing. And... let's follow the Pope because he knows better than us. If the Pope says the vaccine is good let's all have it or if he says condoms are bad even if they save lives, he knows best.

Mysteries are real and to be accepted, but when turned into a big money making industry... lets sell millions of candles and rosaries plus the payment of promisses, etc.

The catholic church however gives opportunity for people to grow in it, just not directly. Catholic Bibles have beautiful, revealing comments in them and the catholic church not having a fundamentalist view of the Bible, sugesting its esotericism and an approach of faith instead of an intellectual one gives an opportunity for those who want to make a serious investment to grow in wisdom...eh eh...just like the I Ching. What would the I Ching give back to you if you were to attack it intellectualy?

But I digress...

Time for bed.

Edited August 8, 2023 by oak

[Apech]

8 hours ago, oak said:

 

Being a Portuguese citizen and having received the catholic baptism as a child makes me having to comment on this. It

has been quite an interesting thread in which I'm not participating much due to lack of time. Thanks for having started the riot, Apech.

Don't agree at all that modern Portuguese people are practicing catholics at all. The supersticious part of the population however resort to "catholic magic" when in need, like for example reciting the prayer of a specific saint or going to Fatima ( the place where the Virgin Mary seems to have appeared to three children) hoping for a miracle. Unfortunately the catholic church never did much directly to make people grow in their faith. You will find the old lady in church very knowing of the rituals to invoke the protection of a multitude of saints but when asked what Jesus said regarding this or that matter, totally unaware of the religion she should be practicing. And... let's follow the Pope because he knows better than us. If the Pope says the vaccine is good let's all have it or if he says condoms are bad even if they save lives, he knows best.

Mysteries are real and to be accepted, but when turned into a big money making industry... lets sell millions of candles and rosaries plus the payment of promisses, etc.

The catholic church however gives opportunity for people to grow in it, just not directly. Catholic Bibles have beautiful, revealing comments in them and the catholic church not having a fundamentalist view of the Bible, sugesting its esotericism and an approach of faith instead of an intellectual one gives an opportunity for those who want to make a serious investment to grow in wisdom...eh eh...just like the I Ching. What would the I Ching give back to you if you were to attack it intellectualy?

But I digress...

Time for bed.

 

 

I belong to a generation - assuming that this generation includes others besides me - that lost its faith in the gods of the old religions as well as in the gods of modern nonreligions. I reject Jehova as I reject humanity.
 

Fernando Pessoa

[oak]

21 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I belong to a generation - assuming that this generation includes others besides me - that lost its faith in the gods of the old religions as well as in the gods of modern nonreligions. I reject Jehova as I reject humanity.
 

Fernando Pessoa

 

That's beyond unpopular for its time and place 😄

Pessoa was a fascinating ultracomplex figure put on earth to deliver many different messages.

The keeper of sheep by Alberto Caeiro, one of his heteronyms, is a book I love. I think of it as the portuguese daodejing. According to the legend it was channeled which must be in part truth.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, oak said:

 

That's beyond unpopular for its time and place 😄

Pessoa was a fascinating ultracomplex figure put on earth to deliver many different messages.

The keeper of sheep by Alberto Caeiro, one of his heteronyms, is a book I love. I think of it as the portuguese daodejing. According to the legend it was channeled which must be in part truth.

 

I agree - I love 'The Keeper of Sheep' and also the Book of Disquiet.  As I live on the Alentejo border I also like to recite Alentejo as seen from a train  ... which is still accurate to this day.

 

 

[Taomeow]

12 hours ago, oak said:

What would the I Ching give back to you if you were to attack it intellectualy?

 

 

I couldn't help myself.  I went to the I Ching to ask this:
"A member of the forum divines: 'What would the I Ching give back to you if you were to attack it intellectually?'  Please give me an image."

 

HEXAGRAM 33-- RETREAT

Other titles: The Symbol of Retirement, Yielding, Withdrawal, Retiring, Strategic Withdrawal, Inaccessibility, Disassociation from Inferior Forces.

 

Judgment

Legge: Retreat means successful progress. Advantage comes from firm correctness and attention to details.

 

Wilhelm/Baynes: Retreat . Success. In what is small, perseverance furthers.

 

Blofeld: Yielding. Success! Persistence in small things wins advantage. 

 

Liu: Retreat. Success. To persist in small matters is of benefit.

 

Ritsema/Sabbadini: Retiring, Growing. The small: Harvesting Trial. [This hexagram describes your situation in terms of conflict and consequent seclusion. It emphasizes that withdrawing from the affairs at hand to conceal yourself in obscurity is the adequate way to handle it.]

 

And so on.  The changing lines I got with this (not quoting them here) I interpreted as a general consensus that it would be a very useful undertaking for the great person, but perilous if attempted by learned idiots.  

[oak]

15 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I couldn't help myself.  I went to the I Ching to ask this:
"A member of the forum divines: 'What would the I Ching give back to you if you were to attack it intellectually?'  Please give me an image."

 

HEXAGRAM 33-- RETREAT

Other titles: The Symbol of Retirement, Yielding, Withdrawal, Retiring, Strategic Withdrawal, Inaccessibility, Disassociation from Inferior Forces.

 

Judgment

Legge: Retreat means successful progress. Advantage comes from firm correctness and attention to details.

 

Wilhelm/Baynes: Retreat . Success. In what is small, perseverance furthers.

 

Blofeld: Yielding. Success! Persistence in small things wins advantage. 

 

Liu: Retreat. Success. To persist in small matters is of benefit.

 

Ritsema/Sabbadini: Retiring, Growing. The small: Harvesting Trial. [This hexagram describes your situation in terms of conflict and consequent seclusion. It emphasizes that withdrawing from the affairs at hand to conceal yourself in obscurity is the adequate way to handle it.]

 

And so on.  The changing lines I got with this (not quoting them here) I interpreted as a general consensus that it would be a very useful undertaking for the great person, but perilous if attempted by learned idiots.  

 

Loved it. Thanks Taomeow 🥰

[Daniel]

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Thats immaterial to my point .

 

Would you please restate your point so i can stay on topic?

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

and those where their  laws which they broke .

 

Divine law, not natural law.   Essentially the divine-monach got angry.  But they were ale t break those laws for 600+ years without any real consequences.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Or if you like , ancient peopleS saw no distinction between  religious decrees, ordinances and commandments  and secular decrees, ordinances and commandments 

 

Many or most did not.  In any large group there will be outliers.  Hebrews were consistenly the outliers.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

No human is set up that way,  in what I am saying .  ( that way = human setup as a deity over the natural laws )

 

Sure they are   That's witchcraft, wizardry, sorcery, invoking angels and demons.  That's why it's forbidden.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Its not specifically about Judaism though .  Maybe by including Judaism as  an ancient religion  that did this, like the others , it feels like something is being 'singled out ' . Its not about Judaism but about the way the ancient mind worked to 'classify' things .

 

 

Generally speaking the ancient mind classified natural/spiitual forces as in conflict and chaos.  At some point that paradigm was shifted to divine providence.  According to the hebrew myths, this was always known by a small minority.  Here's a good article about it surveying the various viewpoints.  If you don't want to read it, in summary, there is a natural law which governs in general.  Then there is also a divine law which governs in particular.  When the divine law is followed, blessings are produced.  When it is not followed, the blessings cease and the individul or group is left to the forces of nature, cause and effect.

 

https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/80723/jewish/Brief-on-Hashgachah-Pratis.htm

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Oh really Daniel  ???

 

 

 

That looks pretty new.  They don't last forever.  The oldest scrolls are the DSS from 100BCE.  In order to confirm that the ancient hebrews had the samemindset as the others, one would need something goind back to 2000BCEish.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Nup .  The dating has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about, except the wide dating of the transition in mental view  16- 1700  and that applies to 'western civilization' and not Judaism at all .

 

 

All I'm saying is that PHD and "Scholar" does not mean that their conclusions are good and reliable.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

RUBBISH ! 

" A few weeks ago, we brought together nine rabbis and nine scientists to launch Scientists in Synagogues. We spent the morning exploring the historical, theological and sociological relationships between Judaism and science with three experts.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/2016/07/21/bringing-rabbis-and-scientists-together/

 

and some Rabbis where even behind the scientific revolution I have been talking about ;

 

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/the-hub/rabbis-of-the-scientific-revolution-jews-and-early-modern-science/

 

This seems to be your personal biased opinion , I think I will go with what I learnt from Uni in Anthropology, Comparative religion and Divinity courses .

 

 

The point is, if Judaism and the ancient hebrews are not being considered, outliers, iconoclast, and polemic, then the conclusion is liable to be faulty.  Without evidence that these people were following the conventional practice of all the others, there is a consistent pattern by these people to go against the trend no with it.