Unpopular Opinions

[old3bob]

18 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

How is it that you keep to the law, then, if not through the exercise of will?

 

forgive for butting in, but I'd say that is possible in willing to be a conduit of zero or near zero resistance for a greater will

[whocoulditbe?]

Wearing my Immanuel Kant mask: Maybe he's confusing will with inclination?

[Daniel]

45 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

How is it that you keep to the law, then, if not through the exercise of will?

 

it's not my law, so it's not exercising my will.  It is submission.  "Thy will be done" is following the law which is different than "My will be done" which is a happy coincidence that the law and my own motives are in alignment.

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

21 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

forgive for butting in, but I'd say that is possible in willing to be a conduit of zero or near zero resistance for a greater will

 

If God's will is for submission, than even if willful submission acheived, it is still completely empty of individual will. 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Daniel

[old3bob]

13 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

If God's will is for submission, than even if willful submission acheived, it is still completely empty of individual will. 

 

 

if a particular soul is involved and volunteering then no, but if only basic elements are involved and directed then yes.

for it takes a will to surrender a will...

[Mark Foote]

22 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

it's not my law, so it's not exercising my will.  It is submission.  "Thy will be done" is following the law which is different than "My will be done" which is a happy coincidence that the law and my own motives are in alignment.

 

 

How 'bout this:
 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

((“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki Transcript, Sunday, February 22, 1970; San Francisco; shunryusuzuki2 dot com/detail1?ID=335); some "you know"'s removed)
 

 

So when you submit,  do you feel as if you are "doing something"--is it a preparatory practice for submission, or submission?  Any trace of one-pointedness, when you're making surrender to the divine will the object of thought?
 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.
 

(SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)
 

 

Asking that last one, for a friend... 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Daniel]

14 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

How 'bout this:
 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

((“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki Transcript, Sunday, February 22, 1970; San Francisco; shunryusuzuki2 dot com/detail1?ID=335); some "you know"'s removed)
 

 

So when you submit,  do you feel as if you are "doing something"--is it a preparatory practice for submission, or submission?  Any trace of one-pointedness, when you're making surrender to the divine will the object of thought?
 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.
 

(SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)
 

 

Asking that last one, for a friend... 

 

 

The ideal is the law is executed as an expression of the divine will which is actualized by the individual.  Prior to executing the commandment there is an invocation, a "bracha" spoken which declares this.  If it isn't truthfully spoken that would be a rather serious transgression because the name of God is being invoked in vain.  In fact, if the wrong bracha is verbalized, there is a counter-bracha uttered (Baruch sheim k'vod, malchuso, l'olam va'ed), then the proper bracha is invoked.

[Daniel]

29 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

if a particular soul is involved and volunteering then no, but if only basic elements are involved and directed then yes.

for it takes a will to surrender a will...

 

If the will is surrended to a "will-to-surrender"?

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

If the will is surrended to a "will-to-surrender"?

 

my sentence  could be changed to,  it takes a will to surrender its will or its own designs.

[Michael Sternbach]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

it's not my law, so it's not exercising my will.  It is submission.  "Thy will be done" is following the law which is different than "My will be done" which is a happy coincidence that the law and my own motives are in alignment.

 

 

Which presupposes a dichotomy between God and yourself. God may be transcendent in your view, but He is not immanent.

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

So wandering into a foreign territory and harvesting their crop is fine?  How does a traveler, a stranger, know what's free for the taking?  Or is it just a free for all?  I invest time and energy plowing and working the soil, then someone wanders through and helps themself?  That's OK?

 

Maybe in primitive times when there was very much open spaces, but, what about a deity?  How does a person know that tree is permitted to a human?

 

Answer:  It's so abundant and there's so much fruit it's falling to the ground and rotting.  In that case, it's probably OK to take some fruit, especially if it's on the ground.

 

‘probably’

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

So wandering into a foreign territory and harvesting their crop is fine?  How does a traveler, a stranger, know what's free for the taking?  Or is it just a free for all?  I invest time and energy plowing and working the soil, then someone wanders through and helps themself?  That's OK?

 

Maybe in primitive times when there was very much open spaces, but, what about a deity?  How does a person know that tree is permitted to a human?

 

Answer:  It's so abundant and there's so much fruit it's falling to the ground and rotting.  In that case, it's probably OK to take some fruit, especially if it's on the ground.

 

 

 

Eh ?     Ummm no.    Wot ?    Pardon  ?

 I  was saying that is exactly what it is based on  ; 

 

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

I can see some old landowners law  that got embedded in religion to justify it .

 

 

 

 

How did you get  your above questions from that comment ?

 

 

In any case I can answer them , yes, in 'primitive times' , for example right here in Oz before colonial settlement   . 

It WAS the garden of eden , no one got kicked out, people strictly obeyed 'law'  - problem was they got invaded .... by lawbreakers.

 

I can write a little dissertation on  how they knew which tree  is permitted to which human , or no humans .  It seems you have little knowledge of such things ?

 

- aboriginal culture, moiety, law, environmental management and  rights of usage (in the garden ) are more complex than we can probably imagine .... regardless of their 'primitive status'   (That is an Aussie anthropologist professor specialists opinion  , by the way , that has studied many of the worlds cultures . )

[Shadow_self]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

And on that Tree the 'fall of man is depicted as different and a little more complex  than 'double speak ' . 

 

 

Clearer images and and a study of the symbology

 

 A discussion regards the  ens vegetalis, and the related conceptual framework might be useful in that regard

[old3bob]

native cultures throughout the world and across ages of time knew of the Law, yet those cultures were also human and had human problems, as in tribe against tribe, region against region, thus were also evolving and or devolving back and forth...  as handed down and recounted in their histories.   For example the ancient Hawaiian island peoples lived in a bountiful paradise yet were often in very bloody and destructive wars with one another!  (before European outsiders arrived)

[Michael Sternbach]

12 hours ago, old3bob said:

I don't see any way to reconcile all of the stated contradictions (given by their prophets or founders) among or within the Abrahamic religions;  which also extends to whatever degree (?) even in their esoteric versions... granted there is some important and related common ground but that can only reach so far imo.  Good luck

 

To me as a metaphysicist, that's the part that truly matters. For that's the part that is universal and timelessly valid.

 

The external framework, however, contains the rules that pertain to specific times and cultures. Little of that will remain in the long run.

[Daniel]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

In any case I can answer them , yes, in 'primitive times' , for example right here in Oz before colonial settlement   . 

It WAS the garden of eden , no one got kicked out, people strictly obeyed 'law'  - problem was they got invaded .... by lawbreakers.

 

I can write a little dissertation on  how they knew which tree  is permitted to which human , or no humans .  It seems you have little knowledge of such things ?

 

I would love that.  And thank you for considering it.

 

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

aboriginal culture, moiety, law, environmental management and  rights of usage (in the garden ) are more complex than we can probably imagine .... regardless of their 'primitive status'   (That is an Aussie anthropologist professor specialists opinion  , by the way , that has studied many of the worlds cultures . )

 

please know that when I use the word 'primitive' it is not pejorative.

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Which presupposes a dichotomy between God and yourself. God may be transcendent in your view, but He is not immanent.

 

My view is complex.  Immanent+Transcendent+Monist are all happening simultaneously but do not nullify each other.  They are united and interdependent.  Understanding my point of view requires temporarily breaking it down into a process, a sequence of events, then at the end reapplying the simultaneity.

 

The dichotomy is energetic, "valence", for lack of a better word, but not "substance", for lack of a better word.

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I would love that.  And thank you for considering it.

 

It works through individuals via  a type of guardianship related to totems .  Say my totem  ( I am really simplifying things here ) is  a bandicoot ... little fellah , the long nosed type .  Thats my 'family', all the bandicoots.  I am certainty NOT allowed to eat them , no way . Its forbidden . One of my jobs is to  receive , retain and store knowledge about them .  I can sit right next to someone who is eating one , no problem, but I cant .  Unless I have told them not to ;  " Hey guys , there is  ( some problem or issue )  with the bandicoots , lay off them until I say so ."  or maybe its a drought , everyone hungry , I have observed, the bandicoot numbers are high and other factors ; go and hunt a lot of them . I also have to manage their environment  to help them , observe the laws about them and make sure others do to . Also I have to protect their secret 'species increase site' , and know and perform the appropriate actions and rituals and protections there to protect the species .  and a whole lot of other responsibilities.

 

Why ?  Those guys are 'diggers' .  I observed recently ; bandicoot invasion - heaps of areas of  grass and clear ground dug up, especially around trees. Its been VERY dry , the winter flush (like an early spring ) started , wattle is blooming , a lot of other plants begin a growth spurt , but too dry . Then 2 days after  crazy bandicoot digging ( that looks like its been plowed in some parts ) , unpredictable,  'nonseasonal' rain , it didnt run off the dry soil but got absorbed due to what the bandicoots did .  Then things bloomed and shot .

 

Same with cicadas ....  the worst drought here , was followed by the  worst cicada year ever ! (  Worse because deafening  ), they live in larvae stage by  attaching and feeding to the bottom of tree roots . when they tunnel out they leave an 'irrigation channel from the surface direct to root ends , ensuring water capture in the dry soil .

 

Its the same for each tree species, each animal, each insect .

 

There is a tribal extension as well  as an individual one  relating to hunting and foraging rites .  Eg, local people here are 'goanna'  'Nungun  or Gungali type', where people in the next area north are  'carpet snake'  - Yumbar .

 

It relates in a complex way to trees. I am ( was given ) ' Webrajali' name in Bundjalung ;  webra - fire , jali - tree .  'Flame Tree'

( Brachychiton acerifolius ) ;

 

Or , on a larger scale ;   I have a painting of this on my wall ;   a Gumbaynggirr  story ; ' The Tree of Life ' ;  'The Muurrbay Tree:

 

https://www.gumbaynggirrjagun.org/stories/muurrbay-tree-of-life

 

please know that when I use the word 'primitive' it is not pejorative.

 

Same with them, they are proud of the word and will use it to describe themselves  ( I am talking about 1 group or clan here ) .

 

No, not pejorative but it does imply a lack of complexity and technology .  There is no lack in these areas however , just difference  ( eg .  The 'thermoplastic' process in which  substances are combined and fired, using a base of grass tree resin , is virtually early chemistry  )

 

[Nungali]

Oh !   Non permission , what tree NOT to eat  'of'   (off the tree OR ground ) .  No power trips here , some are POISON . This is covered by tribal knowledge of the plants and uses in the area .

 

There is a half way though  ;   saw a 'bush expert ' (white guy ) with an elder , sampling bush food as they walked  ;   " can I eat this ... that ? "   one plant , Elder ; " Yes , you can eat that ."

 

The guy takes a bite grimaces   "  Glack ! Oh my God ! "  spits it out  " I thought you said you could eat this ."

 

" Well, you can  eat it , it won't hurt you  .  But we dont eat it ..... tastes terrible . '

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:08 PM, Nungali said:

 

I have a painting of this on my wall ;   a Gumbaynggirr  story ; ' The Tree of Life ' ;  'The Muurrbay Tree:

 

https://www.gumbaynggirrjagun.org/stories/muurrbay-tree-of-life
 

Really beautiful!

Navajo sand painting, back at you (not on my wall, alas):

 

(from https://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa083.shtml)

[Taomeow]

Many opinions I hold are unpopular, so as time goes by and more and more of my opinions wind up in the "unpopular" bin, I keep more and more of them to myself. 

Was digging in that bin for a reasonably innocuous one to share.  Heard something that might fit the bill in a conversation this morning:  

 

Roads built in a river bed will always revert to river during a good rain.

(In anticipation of hurricane Hillary, which according to current forecasts is going to be downgraded to the biggest storm we had in 80 years once it reaches our parts this weekend.)

 

Another innocuous unpopular opinion:

SoCal has shit for water collection.  Not only are good rains rare, they mostly get wasted even when they arrive.  You get the  drought, come rains you get the flooding, then back to the drought.    

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Many opinions I hold are unpopular, so as time goes by and more and more of my opinions wind up in the "unpopular" bin, I keep more and more of them to myself. 

Was digging in that bin for a reasonably innocuous one to share.  Heard something that might fit the bill in a conversation this morning: 

 

Roads built in a river bed will always revert to river during a good rain.

(In anticipation of hurricane Hillary, which according to current forecasts is going to be downgraded to the biggest storm we had in 80 years once it reaches our parts this weekend.)

 

Another innocuous unpopular opinion:

SoCal has shit for water collection.  Not only are good rains rare, they mostly get wasted even when they arrive.  You get the  drought, come rains you get the flooding, then back to the drought.    

I'm right there with you on the unpopular nature of my paradigm of reality.  Been that way all my life, and it's only become more intense noticeable as cycles pass.

 

and as for SoCal and the ridiculous oddness of the lack of rain collection,  I know you didn't forget, but I'll mention the mud slides that the rain brings after the fire season... 

Edited August 18, 2023 by silent thunder
word swap

[liminal_luke]

Where have all the good misinformationists gone?  Now that Covid is no longer top of mind for most, they're largely silent and who can blame them?  Spreading misinformation truth is thankless work.  Even so, I'll always look back wistfully on the bad ole days.

[silent thunder]

When I poke my nose into the news at any point these daze... I'm struck by the keen insight of Samuel Clemens' quote regarding news.  "If you don't read the news, you're uninformed, if you read the news, you're misinformed."

 

That always comes to mind along with the old Chinese curse which once heard, has never left my mind.

"May you live in interesting times.

[Taomeow]

3 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

I'm right there with you on the unpopular nature of my paradigm of reality.  Been that way all my life, and it's only become more intense as cycles pass.

 

and as for SoCal and the ridiculous oddness of the lack of rain collection,  I know you didn't forget, but I'll mention the mud slides that the rain brings after the fire season... 

 

Here we are mostly into bluffs collapsing.  After a good rain, I usually worry that 1) my favorite walking qigong trail might disappear into the ocean --it's been steadily shrinking, and 2) what about the railroad tracks and the trains?  Cutting it a bit close from the get-go, and closer every time...