Unpopular Opinions

[Taomeow]

Taking hurricane updates to another thread -- Stranger Things in The Rabbit Hole.  

[Apech]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

 

You were just joking, right Apech, and I've wasted my breath?

 

and @oak

 

Well this thread is called unpopular opinions isn't it?  So maybe I was being provocative - but not joking really.

 

Obviously 'right concentration' is part of the 8 fold path and so levels of deepening concentration are an integral part of the way.  However (according to my understanding) they do not comprise liberation whereas prajna does.  The lure of bliss, release and indeed higher powers of the mind (siddhis) which come from jhanas is still a possible cause of attachment and thus states of further suffering.  So jhanas does not equal enlightenment - and so in a sense I was right (?).

 

 

[Apech]

22 hours ago, Apech said:

UNPOPULAR OPINION

 

No system, or method or religion will produce the results as advertised.

 

 

 

 

It's like when you go to the supermarket and buy packaged food with a lovely illustration of a meal on the front - and when you get home inside is a plastic tray with some frozen gloop in it.  You go back to the shop and insist on seeing the manager.  You point at the picture and the gloop - the manager says : ' Dear Sir/Madam (or variously gendered shopper) it says 'serving suggestion' under the picture.  The picture is what a meal could be in an ideal world and not what is in the box.  Since you have opened the box there will no refund.'

 

 

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Well this thread is called unpopular opinions isn't it?  So maybe I was being provocative - but not joking really.

 

Obviously 'right concentration' is part of the 8 fold path and so levels of deepening concentration are an integral part of the way.  However (according to my understanding) they do not comprise liberation whereas prajna does.  The lure of bliss, release and indeed higher powers of the mind (siddhis) which come from jhanas is still a possible cause of attachment and thus states of further suffering.  So jhanas does not equal enlightenment - and so in a sense I was right (?).

 

Well, but really--"Includes a step-by-step procedure to full enlightenment; not as easy as one might think"?

I think of that as the popular opinion, actually.

 

You're right, that while the insight into dependent causation is associated with "the cessation of perceiving and feeling", the concentration is not the insight, in the teaching of Gautama.  

Gautama said that there was a happiness associated with all the jhanas, including the last, but bliss, I'm not so sure.  I don't think so.  That's more of an East Indian thing, Hindu maybe, or later Buddhism, in my estimation.

Attachment is a possibility with anything in this world.  

Right concentration:

 

And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments?  It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness.  Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.
 

(MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added)

 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.
 

(SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)
 

 

Gautama sometimes spoke of the "five limbs of concentration", those being the first four jhanas together with the "survery-sign" of the concentration, an overview of the body arrived at from the fourth concentration.  The fourth concentration is marked by "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) inbreathing and outbreathing", and Gautama's way of living included the witness of cessation in connection with an inhalation or an exhalation as part of a rhythm of thoughts applied and sustained.

Not necessary to knock oneself out to attain the cessation of perceiving and feeling and insight into dependent causation, to realize a way of living that is "a thing perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living besides."  But yeah, they stopped passing along the robe and bowl in China, after the sixth patriarch was chased and his life threatened because of the perceived value of the objects.  Everybody wants "full enlightenment", even though it's "not as easy as one might think!"  

Most of the folks receiving transmission have only experienced the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing, in my estimation.  Some, not even that, but they profess unshakeable insight into the lack of any abiding self.  I wonder about that, but I know there's a sermon where Gautama said that among his followers, there were those enlightened in two different ways.  Can't quote chapter and verse, right now.

Only necessary to remain awake to where I am, as I am:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

Random Buddhist on the web:

 

"Nibanna is bliss, but not bliss with the senses, not even the bliss from the jhana. It is the other kind of bliss and you can't know it before being enlightened."

[C T]

7 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Random Buddhist on the web:

 

"Nibanna is bliss, but not bliss with the senses, not even the bliss from the jhana. It is the other kind of bliss and you can't know it before being enlightened."

 

That's correct, because I am of the view this bliss spoken of... it transcends the limits of the body-mind, a transpersonal entry into the Christian-equivalent of a "peace beyond (*mundane*) understanding." (Philippians 4:7).

 

 

 

 

**my emphasis

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

No system, or method or religion will produce the results as advertised.

why not?

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

It's like when you go to the supermarket and buy packaged food with a lovely illustration of a meal on the front - and when you get home inside is a plastic tray with some frozen gloop in it.

IRL this happens very rarely. most  of the time the content matches the advert on the cover. so not sure this is a good analogy.

 

(this subj interests me because it bears on scamgongs. and those are useful as laboratory experiments for the real thing.)

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

why not?

IRL this happens very rarely. most  of the time the content matches the advert on the cover. so not sure this is a good analogy.

 

(this subj interests me because it bears on scamgongs. and those are useful as laboratory experiments for the real thing.)

 

Always the contrarian.

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Always the contrarian.

 

I'll defend him on this one .  

 

A friend gave me a jar of pickled whole small  limes .   (  Well, thanks a lot !  She  works in a place where they distribute food to the homeless , I guess no one wanted them .)

 

Anyway , its a clear jar with a clear liquid and some small suspect looking limes in there . The label has a picture of three of the limes sitting in a small bowl and under it  ' Serving suggestion ' .    And they look exactly like what is inside .

 

So my popular opinion regarding most  'spiritual teachings' is ; they are marketed, they are  given away as a 'gift' when no one wants them. I can clearly see what they are and how they are presented .... and served .

 

And I would have nothing to do with them .

 

( The limes are still in the jar , sitting in the cupboard .... its been nearly two years now and my friends birthday approaches  -  guess what she is getting for a birthday present .  )

[whocoulditbe?]

On 02/08/2023 at 2:16 AM, whocoulditbe? said:

Faith is a compromise employed by people who have had their own experiences and wish to proselytise. But in some contexts, the wish to proselytise seems to devalue the experience in some way, so both Buddhism (convinced by Brahma Sahampati) and Daoism (by Yin Xi) include some kind of reluctance to share the doctrine in their origin stories.

 

[Apech]

42 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I'll defend him on this one .  

 

A friend gave me a jar of pickled whole small  limes .   (  Well, thanks a lot !  She  works in a place where they distribute food to the homeless , I guess no one wanted them .)

 

Anyway , its a clear jar with a clear liquid and some small suspect looking limes in there . The label has a picture of three of the limes sitting in a small bowl and under it  ' Serving suggestion ' .    And they look exactly like what is inside .

 

So my popular opinion regarding most  'spiritual teachings' is ; they are marketed, they are  given away as a 'gift' when no one wants them. I can clearly see what they are and how they are presented .... and served .

 

And I would have nothing to do with them .

 

( The limes are still in the jar , sitting in the cupboard .... its been nearly two years now and my friends birthday approaches  -  guess what she is getting for a birthday present .  )

Have you ever in your life been to an actual real supermarket?

[Nungali]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

Have you ever in your life been to an actual real supermarket?

 

We dont have them down here . 

 

All food and produce is stored in local  distribution centers .  From there, what we need is distributed by 'couriers' direct to our homes .

 

 

 

 

trouble is , you often dont get your delivery  .... its hard to get anyone  to work down here

 

 

 

[old3bob]

...and what is the local beer brand?

[Taoist Texts]

16 hours ago, Apech said:

No system, or method or religion will produce the results as advertised.

oh i know! its because you guys dont read the fine print!

11 hours ago, Apech said:

Always the contrarian.

exactly. fine print.

9 hours ago, Apech said:

Have you ever in your life been to an actual real supermarket?

life is a cabaret my friend. we get what we pay for.

[oak]

19 hours ago, Apech said:

 

It's like when you go to the supermarket and buy packaged food with a lovely illustration of a meal on the front - and when you get home inside is a plastic tray with some frozen gloop in it.  You go back to the shop and insist on seeing the manager.  You point at the picture and the gloop - the manager says : ' Dear Sir/Madam (or variously gendered shopper) it says 'serving suggestion' under the picture.  The picture is what a meal could be in an ideal world and not what is in the box.  Since you have opened the box there will no refund.'

 

 

 

Even items without any label at all can be full of surprises. I remember buying a watermelon and when I got home and opened it, yeah it was juicy and tasty but yellow inside...it took a while for my brain to process that, if it did at all.

[C T]

48 minutes ago, oak said:

 

Even items without any label at all can be full of surprises. I remember buying a watermelon and when I got home and opened it, yeah it was juicy and tasty but yellow inside...it took a while for my brain to process that, if it did at all.

 

Did you enjoy it? Any noticeable difference in taste? 

 

Where I am, both red and yellow-fleshed watermelons are readily available, but I think the red is more popular. 

[oak]

18 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Did you enjoy it? Any noticeable difference in taste? 

 

Where I am, both red and yellow-fleshed watermelons are readily available, but I think the red is more popular. 

 

Yes, and no noticeable difference in taste. My interprrtaion of it is that it was a genetically modified watermelon and I should have been warned before buying it. Are you telling me it is a natural thing?

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh i know! its because you guys dont read the fine print!

exactly. fine print.

life is a cabaret my friend. we get what we pay for.

Life is a cabinet my friend and its full of frozen peas.

[C T]

34 minutes ago, oak said:

 

Yes, and no noticeable difference in taste. My interprrtaion of it is that it was a genetically modified watermelon and I should have been warned before buying it. Are you telling me it is a natural thing?

 

I believe they are natural, though in today's world, it will come as no surprise that some (most?) commercially sourced fruits, including both the yellow and red melons, may indeed be exposed to some form of  tinkering or other. (Unpopular opinion?) 

 

Some interesting watermelon trivia

https://www.thespruceeats.com/types-of-watermelon-1807870#:~:text=We are most familiar with,%2C and yellow-orange fleshed.

 

Apparently the earliest cultivated melons were of the yellow variety. 

 

[whocoulditbe?]

2 minutes ago, C T said:

I believe they are natural, though in today's world, it will come as no surprise that some (most?) commercially sourced fruits, including both the yellow and red melons, may indeed be exposed to some form of  tinkering or other. (Unpopular opinion?) 

Or they just end up contaminated with strings of GMO through gene flow, since they have the same pollinators.

[Michael Sternbach]

On 20.8.2023 at 7:20 PM, Apech said:

UNPOPULAR OPINION

 

No system, or method or religion will produce the results as advertised.

 

 

 

 

That's what I like about Zen -- it advertises nothing.

 

Emperor Wu asked the great teacher Bodhidharma,

“What is the first principle of the holy teaching?”
Bodhidharma said, “Vast emptiness, nothing holy.”
“Who are you, standing here in front of me?” asked the Emperor.
“I don’t know,” said Bodhidharma.
The Emperor didn’t understand.

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

Life is a cabinet my friend and its full of frozen peas.

 

I thought it was a box of chocolates....

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by old3bob

[whocoulditbe?]

Life is a table full of dice

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, old3bob said:

...and what is the local beer brand?

 

Its called ; " Local Micro Brewery Hipster Crap.  '

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, C T said:

 

Did you enjoy it? Any noticeable difference in taste? 

 

Where I am, both red and yellow-fleshed watermelons are readily available, but I think the red is more popular.