Inner Journey with Greg Friedman & Mogen Roshi

[anshino23]

New podcast with Max Christensen (Mogen Roshi) online now for listening.

 

Thought people would enjoy

 

https://www.spreaker.com/user/kxfmradio/mugen-roshi

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

Roshi is a title reserved for someone who has received dharma transmission from a legitimate Zen lineage, normally in the form of inka shomei. This occurs when you've completed the koan curriculum, which normally takes at least 10 years in a monastic setting.

 

Culturally, it's also not a great look to go around referring to yourself as a roshi, as it's used a term of respect by students, rather than adopted as a job title.

 

Will give this a listen tomorrow, but already it doesn't bode well.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Vajra Fist

[liminal_luke]

20 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Culturally, it's also not a great look to go around referring to yourself as a roshi, as it's a term of respect rather than a job title.

 

 

By most standards, including my own, Max does not have a "great look."  I think he's caring and compassionate and accomplished and -- this he has admitted himself -- a bit of a coyote, whatever that means.  I'm grateful for what he has taught me (even if his manner of presenting himself sometimes, often, offended my delicate sensibilities).

Edited August 8, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Vajra Fist]

.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Vajra Fist

[liminal_luke]

I didn't mean to offend, Vajra Fist.  I suspect my reservations about Max are similar, though not identical, to yours.  I get why a person wouldn't like him or trust him or want him as a teacher.  The weird thing to me is that, despite not vibing with Max on a multitude of levels, I found that he nevertheless had valuable things to teach me.  YMMV

[Vajra Fist]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I didn't mean to offend, Vajra Fist.  I suspect my reservations about Max are similar, though not identical, to yours.  I get why a person wouldn't like him or trust him or want him as a teacher.  The weird thing to me is that, despite not vibing with Max on a multitude of levels, I found that he nevertheless had valuable things to teach me.  YMMV

 

No offence at all, my friend. Have edited the post - withholding judgement until I've listened to the interview. Perhaps it explains how he came to be a zen lineage holder.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

Roshi is a title reserved for someone who has received dharma transmission from a legitimate Zen lineage, normally in the form of inka shomei. This occurs when you've completed the koan curriculum, which normally takes at least 10 years in a monastic setting.

 

Culturally, it's also not a great look to go around referring to yourself as a roshi, as it's used a term of respect by students, rather than adopted as a job title.

 

Will give this a listen tomorrow, but already it doesn't bode well.

 

Slight point of correction: koan curriculum would apply to a Rinzai Zen teacher, not a Soto Zen teacher, as would the requirement for a monastic setting.  

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

No offence at all, my friend. Have edited the post - withholding judgement until I've listened to the interview. Perhaps it explains how he came to be a zen lineage holder.

 

Thanks, Vajra Fist.  It will be interesting to hear -- if you care to share -- what you think after you've had a listen.  (I've yet to listen myself.)  My guess is that your initial opinion will be confirmed but one never knows.

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Slight point of correction: koan curriculum would apply to a Rinzai Zen teacher, not a Soto Zen teacher, as would the requirement for a monastic setting.  

 

how many types and levels of transmission are there is Zen schools...how many of them are an energetic transfer of wisdom/ knowledge through direct telepathic transmission?

[stirling]

3 minutes ago, old3bob said:

how many types and levels of transmission are there is Zen schools...how many of them are an energetic transfer of wisdom/ knowledge through direct telepathic transmission?

 

Bob,

 

In the Soto Zen tradition the answers would be: None and None.

 

Enlightenment in the Mahayana schools (includes Zen) is considered to be ALREADY present but unrecognized. No-one can give you what you already have. Though an enlightened teacher might occasionally be successful in pointing it out to a student this, isn't because anything has been given or added to the student. Enlightenment isn't gaining something extra, but rather losing a delusion about how things are.

[anshino23]

He briefly talks about being initiated into an inner-door tradition in Japan.
 

I assume that’s why he’s changed his name to Mogen Roshi. 
 

He has some absolutely crazy stories. Very fun, but I can see how he might not be everyone’s cup of tea  

 

@liminal_luke Curious; did you go to one of his Kunlun seminars or when did you meet him? Can you tell us a bit more about your experience?  

[Vajra Fist]

Deleted. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Vajra Fist
Cultivation of speech

[liminal_luke]

3 hours ago, anshino23 said:

He briefly talks about being initiated into an inner-door tradition in Japan.
 

I assume that’s why he’s changed his name to Mogen Roshi. 
 

He has some absolutely crazy stories. Very fun, but I can see how he might not be everyone’s cup of tea  

 

@liminal_luke Curious; did you go to one of his Kunlun seminars or when did you meet him? Can you tell us a bit more about your experience?  

 

Yes, I went to several of his seminars as well as a slightly longer training in Hawaii.  I learned that Jenny Lamb taught Max the basic Kunlun practice (she calls it yigong) so then I went to a workshop with her.  I don't claim to be an accomplished practitioner but Max started me on a path that I continue to find valuable. 

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Bob,

 

In the Soto Zen tradition the answers would be: None and None.

 

Enlightenment in the Mahayana schools (includes Zen) is considered to be ALREADY present but unrecognized. No-one can give you what you already have. Though an enlightened teacher might occasionally be successful in pointing it out to a student this, isn't because anything has been given or added to the student. Enlightenment isn't gaining something extra, but rather losing a delusion about how things are.

 

understood in that way,  but you say no actual telepathic energetic wisdom/knowledge "transmission" according to what you know...Btw. I do know about what you said along the lines of gaining and losing which is not what I'm getting at...which could be called pointers, tools and more shared and revealed mind to mind or soul to soul depending on one's definition of those terms.

Edited August 9, 2023 by old3bob

[anshino23]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Bob,

 

In the Soto Zen tradition the answers would be: None and None.

 

Enlightenment in the Mahayana schools (includes Zen) is considered to be ALREADY present but unrecognized. No-one can give you what you already have. Though an enlightened teacher might occasionally be successful in pointing it out to a student this, isn't because anything has been given or added to the student. Enlightenment isn't gaining something extra, but rather losing a delusion about how things are.

 

I asked ChatGPT based on its knowledge on Zen and Ch'an to explain how someone might be recognized as a lineage holder within Zen. It came up with a pretty great answer: 
 

Mind-to-mind transmission, or "ishi no denrai," is a core concept in Zen Buddhism, emphasizing a direct and non-verbal communication of insight from teacher to student. This idea represents the transmission of the Dharma (Buddhist teachings) in an experiential manner rather than through words or scriptures. Yes, within the Zen tradition, there are instances where a master recognizes a student as having achieved a profound realization, often referred to as an "enlightenment experience." This recognition sometimes includes bestowing a Dharma name, or "master-name," and acknowledging the student as a lineage holder. Mind-to-mind transmission can be a key aspect of this process. Here's how this works in context:

 

Quote

 

The Process of Recognition

 

1. Deep Realization: The student must demonstrate a profound realization of their inherent Buddha-nature. This realization is often evidenced by a deep understanding of a koan or through insights expressed during personal encounters (dokusan) with the master.

2. Mind-to-Mind Transmission: The master may recognize this realization through a direct, non-verbal communication with the student, known as mind-to-mind transmission. This recognition transcends the need for words and is a confirmation of the student's understanding.

3. Inka Shomei: In some traditions, the master might bestow an "inka shomei," a formal seal of approval, acknowledging the student's enlightenment and authorizing them as a Dharma heir. This is a significant event, marking the student as a lineage holder.

4. Dharma Name: The master may give the student a new name, or "master-name," symbolizing their realization and new status within the Zen community.

5. Transmission Ceremony: Often, a formal ceremony accompanies this recognition. This ceremony, known as "Dharma transmission," publicly affirms the student's realization and their place in the lineage of enlightened masters.

6. Continuing the Lineage: As a lineage holder, the student is now responsible for maintaining and transmitting the teachings to future generations. This often involves leading a community, teaching, and providing guidance to other students.

 

Context and Significance

This process of recognizing a new master is highly significant within the Zen tradition, but it's also complex and nuanced. It represents not just a personal achievement but a continuation of an unbroken lineage tracing back to the historical Buddha. The mind-to-mind transmission, being non-verbal and experiential, embodies the essence of Zen's direct approach to realization. It ensures that the transmission is not simply an intellectual understanding but a lived experience.

 

Caveats and Criticisms

The process of Dharma transmission has faced criticism and controversy. Some argue that it may become overly formalized or politicized, losing sight of the authentic realization it's meant to represent. Additionally, variations exist across different Zen schools and cultures, leading to differing views on the process and its significance.

 

Conclusion

The recognition of a student as a master through mind-to-mind transmission and subsequent bestowing of a master-name is a profound and multifaceted process within the Zen tradition. It reflects Zen's emphasis on direct experience, intimate teacher-student relationships, and the continuation of an ancient lineage. Understanding this process requires an appreciation for the rich history and unique approach to realization that characterizes Zen practice.

 

 

You seem to have some thoughts @Vajra Fist on this matter, but decide to delete them - not sure why?  

[old3bob]

ok, then from what you are quoting such can be said to be the mark of the true master on that level.  (mind to mind or soul to soul communication and more)

[stirling]

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

understood in that way,  but you say no actual telepathic energetic wisdom/knowledge "transmission" according to what you know...Btw. I do know about what you said along the lines of gaining and losing which is not what I'm getting at...which could be called pointers, tools and more shared and revealed mind to mind or soul to soul depending on one's definition of those terms.

 

The "secret knowledge" is enlightenment itself. Enlightenment can't be shared from an individual to an individual, it would be an oxymoron from the perspective of enlightenment in Buddhism. 

 

Enlightened teachers ARE very helpful in learning to deepen and stabilize moment to moment enlightened Mind, but they aren't necessary. There are some that become enlightened without ever encountering teachings:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddhayāna

[stirling]

Quote

 

The Process of Recognition

 

1. Deep Realization: The student must demonstrate a profound realization of their inherent Buddha-nature. This realization is often evidenced by a deep understanding of a koan or through insights expressed during personal encounters (dokusan) with the master.

2. Mind-to-Mind Transmission: The master may recognize this realization through a direct, non-verbal communication with the student, known as mind-to-mind transmission. This recognition transcends the need for words and is a confirmation of the student's understanding.

3. Inka Shomei: In some traditions, the master might bestow an "inka shomei," a formal seal of approval, acknowledging the student's enlightenment and authorizing them as a Dharma heir. This is a significant event, marking the student as a lineage holder.

4. Dharma Name: The master may give the student a new name, or "master-name," symbolizing their realization and new status within the Zen community.

5. Transmission Ceremony: Often, a formal ceremony accompanies this recognition. This ceremony, known as "Dharma transmission," publicly affirms the student's realization and their place in the lineage of enlightened masters.

6. Continuing the Lineage: As a lineage holder, the student is now responsible for maintaining and transmitting the teachings to future generations. This often involves leading a community, teaching, and providing guidance to other students.

 

 

I can't share with you the actual process, but I would say it deviates in a number of ways from what ChatGPT says above. 

 

Of the things that are close to correct and ultimately important:

 

Deep Realization means that the student is completely stabilized in enlightened mind, and that the teacher has verified that this is the case by thorough examination over at least a few years of time (often 10ish years).

 

Dharma Transmission (Mind to Mind Transmission here) is the OK for a new teacher to begin teaching dharma, and an acknowledgement that they are continuing the unbroken chain of dharma teachers. It does not mean that they are enlightened. 

 

Dharma Name is given to the newly minted teacher. 

 

The teacher does NOT enlighten the student in any way. They may repeatedly point to the absolute, but this does not mean that the student will realize it (if they EVER do) because of that pointing. Again: All appearances in consciousness, including people and objects of all sorts are ALREADY enlightened but simply don't have realization. When reality is understood and stable there is "Deep Realization" in ChatGPT's parlance. 

 

I would be careful about making any decisions about what is or isn't true on any topic based on what ChatGPT has to say. Wikipedia is a far more reliable source, and one that is now commonly accepted for use as a source for research at many academic institutions. 

[old3bob]

why are you making assumptions or jumping to conclusions again Stirling, 

[whocoulditbe?]

15 hours ago, anshino23 said:

asked ChatGPT based on its knowledge on Zen and Ch'an to explain how someone might be recognized as a lineage holder within Zen. It came up with a pretty great answer: 
 

Mind-to-mind transmission, or "ishi no denrai," is a core concept in Zen Buddhism, emphasizing a direct and non-verbal communication of insight from teacher to student. This idea represents the transmission of the Dharma (Buddhist teachings) in an experiential manner rather than through words or scriptures. Yes, within the Zen tradition, there are instances where a master recognizes a student as having achieved a profound realization, often referred to as an "enlightenment experience." This recognition sometimes includes bestowing a Dharma name, or "master-name," and acknowledging the student as a lineage holder. Mind-to-mind transmission can be a key aspect of this process. Here's how this works in context:

[...]

Please don't base your arguments on the output of the lie machine. I believe the reference to the term ishi no denrai (which would be 意思の伝来) is a fabrication based on its attempt at reverse translation from the English. The correct name is probably 以心傳心 ishin-denshin, which looks suspiciously similar only in the romaji form. That's probably only the tip of the iceberg. The whole stage theory it's produced is far too neat. But you can't blame the thing. An LLM is like a overpowered toddler with way too much knowledge and no understanding.

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

why are you making assumptions or jumping to conclusions again Stirling, 

I would be happy to answer your question, but I am not sure what you mean here, Bob.

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

I would be happy to answer your question, but I am not sure what you mean here, Bob.

 

never mind, 

[stirling]

If you are accusing me of some repeating misbehavior I’d like to address it.

If you have changed your mind, wouldn’t it be fair to withdraw your comment?

[johndoe2012]

Where did Max get the Red Phoenix practice from?

[thelerner]

I took a seminar w/ Max many years ago.  Enjoyed it, Kunlun was an interesting spontaneous chi gung art to add to my training.  Max is a fascinating story teller but I wouldn't take the tales as gospel.  The man has juice, and Kunlun seemed powerful, relatively simple but also a caveat emptor type of art, in that you were learning a potentially powerful system without backup, follow up or continued instruction.   Which can be problematic, and we had some people develop problems with it.  I never did but I'm not energy sensitive.

 

Recently Trunk mentioned a Kwan Yin system that his teacher, Sifu Matsuo had.  From what I see it has similarities to Kunlun, though looks like its part of much bigger system

- 

https://alchemicaltaoism.com/DGSReviews.htm

 

1. Kwan Yin Magnetic Qigong  

This dvd is key for harmonization.  If you get nothing else from my website at all, get this dvd.  In fact, if you wanted only one qigong practice, period, get this dvd.

KYMG has a number of parts, individually simple, that are keys to a series of central channel issues.  Don't overwhelm yourself by trying to learn it all at once; don't rush beyond the pace of your own process.  Just like learning anything with a number of parts:  Practice small managable pieces, either exclusively or by emphasis, within a single session.  Gradually over time your skills will build and you'll become fluent with more of the whole. 

 

Here is a free youtube 9 minute preview of the KYMQ video.  The portion of 1m25s - 3m20s gives minimally enough instruction so that you can effectively create and start working with the sphere.  I suggest that you gain familiarity and comfort with that part first. 

 

TIP:  Once you get a feel for how the hands work in magnetic qigong, with a little creativity you can also do some of the most simple movements with your feet - in any comfortable position in which both feet are relatively free or even standing on one leg, working the free foot in relation to the center line.