Lotus Nei Gong process; how long?

[galen_burnett]

I’m doing the Lotus Nei Gong process and have a very good teacher in it (UK). But my teacher says it’s hard to say how long the process takes for different people. If you yourself have gone through the process from being a beginner to ‘stilling the Jing’ (getting your abdomen warm), from there to ‘interconnecting and expanding the Huang’, and from there to developing the Microcosmic Orbit, and whatever the stages are thereafter, how long did it take you to get to each stage, and at what sort of rate of practice? I’m especially curious as to how long it takes to both get to the stage of the abdomen warming up (’stilling the jing’, this seems to be the first key stage) and then to the point of developing the Microcosmic Orbit. Myself I’m pretty much right at the beginning; though have done some qigong (fairly intensively I guess) in the past with a different teacher/ school, and otherwise my body’s in good shape from a yoga point-of-view. I’m practising this system in order to fix a chronic health-problem with my back.

Edited August 10, 2023 by galen_burnett

[Nahfets]

You can do breath of fire / rapid fire in zhan zhuang this can bring about heat fast. Not to say this is the best and safest method at all, but fast it is.

Don't do like me, as I started without any knowledge basically I had just seen a picture of the microcosmic orbit, and began visualizing qi up and down with the breath and some muscle locks while seated. This I did with breath of fire/rapid fire in between sets, and then stillness with inner smile to end the meditation. I would at least two sessions of 30min each Day and I'd say it took about a Week until heat began developing but it may differ from person to person and from technique to technique. Once or twice a Week I would do a breathwork set also to balance the body and sometimes the vibrations would be there in the dantien for Days after even. 

Then at some point I got so much heat my whole body would warm and my anal sphinxter would litterally burn if I tensed it just a little and I couldn't sleep even on sleeping meds I had so much energy all the time. 

I had to scale it down and this got to a point where I realized it was dangerous to mess with so much qi without knowing what to do, or having a teacher standby.

I then got into Taoist Qigong and it helped me balance the energy much more and clear my meridians and have been practicing this almost everyday, with seated practice also and testicle breathing for vitality as well, but all in all a lot more safe and less intense. I still have heat in the dantien that increases and spread when I practice and vibrations too whenever I clear my belt meridian. 

 

I used addaptogen herbs on the side to stay focused, did weightlifting and jogging too a few times pr. Week and ate a lot of fresh organic fruits and veggies as this helps you build jing too. 

I can recommend Jerry Alan Johnson's work it is very extensive and his medical Qigong set's have been a lifesaver! This set is a great one to begin clearing your organsystem and meridians and even helps you clear your du and ren meridians and prepare it for micro cosmic orbiting. His video on Wuji posture is also worth noting as these movements work mostly when Wuji is upheld. 

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

If you yourself have gone through the process from being a beginner to ....from there to developing the Microcosmic Orbit,

a month

8 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

I’m practising this system in order to fix a chronic health-problem with my back.

did your teacher confirm that it is possible in principle to heal your problem with his system?

[anshino23]

10 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

I’m doing the Lotus Nei Gong process and have a very good teacher in it (UK). But my teacher says it’s hard to say how long the process takes for different people. If you yourself have gone through the process from being a beginner to ‘stilling the Jing’ (getting your abdomen warm), from there to ‘interconnecting and expanding the Huang’, and from there to developing the Microcosmic Orbit, and whatever the stages are thereafter, how long did it take you to get to each stage, and at what sort of rate of practice? I’m especially curious as to how long it takes to both get to the stage of the abdomen warming up (’stilling the jing’, this seems to be the first key stage) and then to the point of developing the Microcosmic Orbit. Myself I’m pretty much right at the beginning; though have done some qigong (fairly intensively I guess) in the past with a different teacher/ school, and otherwise my body’s in good shape from a yoga point-of-view. I’m practising this system in order to fix a chronic health-problem with my back.

 

Hi Galen. So, I am hearing different things here, please correct me if I'm wrong  

 

At one level you're asking when you'll reach high stages of development such as stilling the Jing and developing the "Qigong" body on top of also developing the microcosmic orbit (a high stage of internal development); but then at the same time you're saying you are practicing this system to fix a chronic health problem with your back?

 

I am not sure if you see the cognitive dissonance here yourself, but it is apparent to me. If you have access to the academy try watching the Bali video on 'healing' and you'll see what I mean. Going into these arts for fixing back pain seems backwards to me. You can fix back pain through much easier modalities? And fixing backpain does not necessarily imply reaching high stages of internal development or vice-versa, as it would very much depend on its cause. 

 

There are countless programs that are focued on fixing back pain, stretching exercises, strengthening exercises and much more. Most likely much more efficient at bringing comfort and ease than the hard internal training that neigong requires. 

 

As for your question on duration - this has also been discussed elsewhere. For the majority of practictioners, regardless of background, to create the foundation will take somewhere between 3 and 5 years. 

 

This is with practice at least 1 x 2 hours daily, and preferably 2 x 2 hour sessions based on my understanding. Who is your teacher? Your teacher really should have addressed these questions with you directly. Perhaps the teacher was deliberately withholding the answer as a way of suggesting to you that patience and long-term view in these arts is key.

 

I wouldn't focus short-term within these arts. The time will pass anyway, so can just as well train. But if your goal with these arts are "back pain removal" then there are countless other paths, trainings and programs that are much better suited for this goal IMHO. 

[Neirong]

11 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

I’m doing the Lotus Nei Gong process and have a very good teacher in it (UK). But my teacher says it’s hard to say how long the process takes for different people. If you yourself have gone through the process from being a beginner to ‘stilling the Jing’ (getting your abdomen warm), from there to ‘interconnecting and expanding the Huang’, and from there to developing the Microcosmic Orbit, and whatever the stages are thereafter, how long did it take you to get to each stage, and at what sort of rate of practice? I’m especially curious as to how long it takes to both get to the stage of the abdomen warming up (’stilling the jing’, this seems to be the first key stage) and then to the point of developing the Microcosmic Orbit. Myself I’m pretty much right at the beginning; though have done some qigong (fairly intensively I guess) in the past with a different teacher/ school, and otherwise my body’s in good shape from a yoga point-of-view. I’m practising this system in order to fix a chronic health-problem with my back.

If you want to fix back pain, swimming pool and manual massage (Find experienced chiropractor) are proper tools.

As far as doing 4-hours of practice a day for 5 years in that particular system, I have only observed and heard of detrimental results.

[galen_burnett]

11 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

Hi Galen. So, I am hearing different things here, please correct me if I'm wrong  

 

At one level you're asking when you'll reach high stages of development such as stilling the Jing and developing the "Qigong" body on top of also developing the microcosmic orbit (a high stage of internal development); but then at the same time you're saying you are practicing this system to fix a chronic health problem with your back?

 

I am not sure if you see the cognitive dissonance here yourself, but it is apparent to me. If you have access to the academy try watching the Bali video on 'healing' and you'll see what I mean. Going into these arts for fixing back pain seems backwards to me. You can fix back pain through much easier modalities? And fixing backpain does not necessarily imply reaching high stages of internal development or vice-versa, as it would very much depend on its cause. 

 

There are countless programs that are focued on fixing back pain, stretching exercises, strengthening exercises and much more. Most likely much more efficient at bringing comfort and ease than the hard internal training that neigong requires. 

 

As for your question on duration - this has also been discussed elsewhere. For the majority of practictioners, regardless of background, to create the foundation will take somewhere between 3 and 5 years. 

 

This is with practice at least 1 x 2 hours daily, and preferably 2 x 2 hour sessions based on my understanding. Who is your teacher? Your teacher really should have addressed these questions with you directly. Perhaps the teacher was deliberately withholding the answer as a way of suggesting to you that patience and long-term view in these arts is key.

 

I wouldn't focus short-term within these arts. The time will pass anyway, so can just as well train. But if your goal with these arts are "back pain removal" then there are countless other paths, trainings and programs that are much better suited for this goal IMHO. 

I’ve had it for the best part of 10 years. Tried lots of stuff from psychotherapy through to various physio exercises and even to Wim Hof, diet and fasting etc. Nothing’s ever helped in the slightest besides a single yoga stretch that eases the upper back a bit. Seems to be a problem with qi being ‘wild’ and unconsolidated in my body/back. So I reckon if I continue with this nei gong system then it would sort me out at some point. I mean this problem will kill me eventually if I don’t fix it, as it’s so debilitating; probably sooner rather than later, so even if it takes a long time at least the nei gong seems promising, and at any rate has offered the most coherent diagnosis for my problem. Had an accidental Kundalini-surge pretty much at the onset of the problem, but I’m still uncertain whether that was exclusively the cause of the problem or just a contributing factor (yet to save up the thousands of pounds I’d need to travel to Asia to see a Kundalini specialist about this yet.

 

Neil Lodge in Cardiff is my teacher.

 

Thanks for that time-scale. How long have you been practising Damo’s nei gong system for? Also, you say the duration question has been discussed elsewhere, would you know of any threads I could view?

Edited August 11, 2023 by galen_burnett

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

5 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

Nothing’s ever helped in the slightest besides a single yoga stretch that eases the upper back a bit.

Why don’t you keep doing this then?

[galen_burnett]

8 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Why don’t you keep doing this then?

It doesn’t seem to get to the root of the problem, it’s just pain relief.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, galen_burnett said:

It doesn’t seem to get to the root of the problem, it’s just pain relief.

 

Have you had your back examined by a doctor or had a CAT scan (for instance) of your spine to see if there are any defects.  A lot of back problems are postural or work related e.g. sitting in single position for long periods - that kind of thing.  Also perhaps have you tried TCM / acupuncture which gives good results for some people?

 

If a single back stretch brings temporary relief then I would suspect that you are holding tension elsewhere and you need to do a system of whole body stretches ... since it's all connected.

 

 

[oak]

18 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

I’ve had it for the best part of 10 years. Tried lots of stuff from psychotherapy through to various physio exercises and even to Wim Hof, diet and fasting etc. Nothing’s ever helped in the slightest besides a single yoga stretch that eases the upper back a bit. 

 

Hi galen_burnett

I will tell you about my experience with back pain in order to try to help you.

Being a sports massage therapist as well as a qigong and tai chi practicioner gives me many tools to assess as well as treat the injuries that sometimes I have to deal with. Sometimes however, even tough my self-diagnose is absolutely right I am not able to help myself, its just not physically possible. That is when I resort to an osteopath. I'm absolutely sure that they will assess me properly as well as manipulate my body effectively in order to treat the problem. Last year for example a nerve got trapped on my cervical spine, excruciating pain. After self assessment tried in vain the existing physiotherapy exercises to help my problem. The doctor of course put me on anti-inflammatory medication that of course as I knew wouldn't help me for long...it would follow the NHS physiotherapy appointment that would take weeks to happen, so, I've booked an appointment with my osteopath that confirmed my self-diagnosis and treated me accordingly. Yes it took me three sessions and a few pounds ( he actually charges less than I do for a session 😀 ) but it was the wise decision and saved months of avoidable pain.

Hope it helps.

Best 

 

 

[galen_burnett]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Have you had your back examined by a doctor or had a CAT scan (for instance) of your spine to see if there are any defects.  A lot of back problems are postural or work related e.g. sitting in single position for long periods - that kind of thing.  Also perhaps have you tried TCM / acupuncture which gives good results for some people?

 

If a single back stretch brings temporary relief then I would suspect that you are holding tension elsewhere and you need to do a system of whole body stretches ... since it's all connected.

 

 

yes i’ve done all of that. no relief with acupuncture within the first several appointments, with two separate practitioners; would be willing to try a Lotus Nei Gong acupuncturist but closest one in 4 hours away.

 

yes maybe if i went extremely HAM with yoga it would ‘evaporate’ all of my tensions and the back problem with them, but i have gone pretty far with it before with no success. i probably will spend a year going for that at some point though.

Edited August 12, 2023 by galen_burnett

[galen_burnett]

3 hours ago, oak said:

 

Hi galen_burnett

I will tell you about my experience with back pain in order to try to help you.

Being a sports massage therapist as well as a qigong and tai chi practicioner gives me many tools to assess as well as treat the injuries that sometimes I have to deal with. Sometimes however, even tough my self-diagnose is absolutely right I am not able to help myself, its just not physically possible. That is when I resort to an osteopath. I'm absolutely sure that they will assess me properly as well as manipulate my body effectively in order to treat the problem. Last year for example a nerve got trapped on my cervical spine, excruciating pain. After self assessment tried in vain the existing physiotherapy exercises to help my problem. The doctor of course put me on anti-inflammatory medication that of course as I knew wouldn't help me for long...it would follow the NHS physiotherapy appointment that would take weeks to happen, so, I've booked an appointment with my osteopath that confirmed my self-diagnosis and treated me accordingly. Yes it took me three sessions and a few pounds ( he actually charges less than I do for a session 😀 ) but it was the wise decision and saved months of avoidable pain.

Hope it helps.

Best 

 

 

cheers but i’ve seen a few osteopaths already.

[oak]

7 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

cheers but i’ve seen a few osteopaths already.

 

Ok, can I ask you what was their diagnostic? Was it the same or different?

[galen_burnett]

11 minutes ago, oak said:

 

Ok, can I ask you what was their diagnostic? Was it the same or different?

basically no-one found anything the matter with the bones, beyond a few degrees of scoliosis which they deemed insignificant, so they just referred me to physiotherapy.

[oak]

6 minutes ago, galen_burnett said:

basically no-one found anything the matter with the bones, beyond a few degrees of scoliosis which they deemed insignificant, so they just referred me to physiotherapy.

 

There is nothing wrong with mild scoliosis if not, like in your case accompanied by severe pain which can be a nerve, or tendon, or ligament, or fascial problem. So, they referring you to physiotherapy having much better ways to deal with those seems very odd to me.

 

Really wish you find the solution to your problem and please let us know when you do.

[galen_burnett]

5 minutes ago, oak said:

 

There is nothing wrong with mild scoliosis if not, like in your case accompanied by severe pain which can be a nerve, or tendon, or ligament, or fascial problem. So, they referring you to physiotherapy having much better ways to deal with those seems very odd to me.

 

Really wish you find the solution to your problem and please let us know when you do.

they didn’t think the scoliosis was necessarily causing the back-problem, you see, just that there was a chance that by sorting out some perceived postural misalignments—with physio—i could both sort out the back-pain and the insignificant scoliosis to boot. i’m pretty sure it’s an energetic problem, which is why i’m putting stock in nei gong.

[oak]

14 minutes ago, galen_burnett said:

they didn’t think the scoliosis was necessarily causing the back-problem, you see, just that there was a chance that by sorting out some perceived postural misalignments—with physio—i could both sort out the back-pain and the insignificant scoliosis to boot. i’m pretty sure it’s an energetic problem, which is why i’m putting stock in nei gong.

 

Ultimately it's your problem and you should deal with it the way you think you should. Be open to suggestions though and consider learning more about your body. An energetic problem will have an expression in your anatomy and physiology.

Again wishing you the best and good work mate.

[galen_burnett]

37 minutes ago, oak said:

 

Ultimately it's your problem and you should deal with it the way you think you should. Be open to suggestions though and consider learning more about your body. An energetic problem will have an expression in your anatomy and physiology.

Again wishing you the best and good work mate.

don’t really understand the first sentence. and ‘learning about my body’ is what i’m doing all the time in trying to fix this problem i reckon. well, yes i think it’s energetic and thence is completely messing me up on sorts of levels, including anatomical and physiological

[oak]

9 minutes ago, galen_burnett said:

don’t really understand the first sentence. and ‘learning about my body’ is what i’m doing all the time in trying to fix this problem i reckon. well, yes i think it’s energetic and thence is completely messing me up on sorts of levels, including anatomical and physiological

 

I meant learning some plain western anatomy and physiology...and what's not energetic anyway?

[galen_burnett]

3 minutes ago, oak said:

 

I meant learning some plain western anatomy and physiology...and what's not energetic anyway?

but i don’t see how a knowledge of the internal-organs and bones and muscles etc. is going to diagnose this problem for me. i’ve already spoken with many people who have loads of that knowledge and they were completely unable to do anything for me.

[oak]

9 minutes ago, galen_burnett said:

but i don’t see how a knowledge of the internal-organs and bones and muscles etc. is going to diagnose this problem for me. i’ve already spoken with many people who have loads of that knowledge and they were completely unable to do anything for me.

 

Already told you that I don't have any problem if you want to have it your way and have faith in your system. I do understand your pain and was making suggestions in order to try to help you and with the best intentions. 

This will be my last post on this thread.

Best of luck.

 

 

[Sahaja]

it seems like your bigger urgency is about your back (rather then when in the program you will you develop specific qualities ) Did someone specifically tell you that learning neigong will fix your back? Did they tell you which quality or process that is developed in Neigong that would solve your back issues or is this just a general expectation you have ? If it’s just a general expectation, that seems like a pretty big assumption to make given that the health of your back is at stake.
 

Suggest, if you haven’t already, that you specifically discuss your back problem and your expectations for the Neigong program to fix it  with your teacher or with Damo directly.    Could be something specific covered early in the Neigong program that would help that you should focus on (health issue could sort itself out early in the program - I’ve seen that) or it could be that what you need isn’t even addressed in the Neigong program or even that there are things in Neigong that could make it worse that you should avoid, at least temporarily. Knowing when in the Neigong program qualities arise in you will not directly answer any of these important questions for you. But I think asking your teacher, another IAA/LNG teacher or Damo specifically about your back problem will give you the clarity you need to proceed.

if all you really want is more info on what to expect and you don’t find it by asking questions on this site, suggest you dig into the countless Q&As on the LNG/IAA Facebook page (that has a search function) or ask other students and teachers for feedback on your questions on the LNG/IAA discord channel.  You can also look ahead in the IAA online catalogue to find out when processes  like the MCO are covered in the program. You can also choose to  view the fact that no can exactly say when things will arise for you personally as a positive thing in that they could very well arise in the next moment, particularly if you aren’t expecting them! 

 

 

[galen_burnett]

@Sahaja thanks. those online search resources sound useful.

 

well Damo’s in Bali isn’t he..? and i don’t have any space-time teleportation devices on me nor any contact details for the ET’s, and i’m just a pauper supported by government benefits in the meantime with my house to fix as well so i won’t be getting over there any time soon i don’t think…

 

After spending almost 10 years with this problem i’m pretty sure it’s root is in energy or chi. having read a good amount of his Comprehensive Guide to DNG i even now suspect it could well be extremely deeply rooted ‘emotional debris’ forms of chi stagnation, left over from hard times in the past, with that kundalini surge i had just exacerbating it all; in which case the system won’t fix me until well well into the process, probably at around the time of developing fully the MCO.

 

there’s a chance i guess that the early foundation work up to Stilling the Jing will fix it… and my teacher is very aware of my problem now and yes he obviously thinks it can be fixed with the system. he’s advanced in it himself having at least reached the MCO.

 

but honestly it sounds like it would probably take years and years. so in the meantime, considering that it could be ‘emotional debris’ i think repeated fasts could work after all: very very long water-fasts that purge right down to the deepest layers. so i’ll be doing some more of that at some point (which will be fun… 😫😫😫)

[Sahaja]

fyi - when I saw your comments on fasting and “kundalini” I remembered a problematic connection between the two from my yoga studies so I checked the IAA fb site on fasting and found this quote I’d thought to share with you
 

 ‘During the period of fasting I did NO energy work at all since this is dangerous to do when you are not eating, just to make that clear! Fasting is for breath and mental work if you do any practice.”

 

[galen_burnett]

17 hours ago, Sahaja said:

fyi - when I saw your comments on fasting and “kundalini” I remembered a problematic connection between the two from my yoga studies so I checked the IAA fb site on fasting and found this quote I’d thought to share with you
 

 ‘During the period of fasting I did NO energy work at all since this is dangerous to do when you are not eating, just to make that clear! Fasting is for breath and mental work if you do any practice.”

 

well thanks for that; could be that you helped me dodge a bullet there