How would you counter this hypothesis to the ‘Enlightenment’ idea?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

The only quote that you need to know:

 

"Just do it!" - Nike

 

Instead of wasting time and riling up your emotions with stupid meaningless discussions and arguments, get some cultivation done so you can actually experience enlightenment instead of just talking about it.

[Nungali]

Alright Satrio !   Have I gotta take you back to clown pre-school ! ? 

 

Wait .... that didnt come out right .   Hang on I'll be back  ....

[Nungali]

Okay, I'm ready now . 
 

Right ......   now ,  how would you counter this hypothesis  to my following idea ....

 

( and I warn ya !  I got a box of rotten tomatoes right here . ) 

 

 

Spoiler

Questions about the "main idea" of a passage are popular on reading comprehension tests, but sometimes, those questions are pretty difficult to answer, especially for students who are not completely sure they understand what the main idea really is. Finding the main idea of a paragraph or longer passage of text is one of the most important reading skills to master, along with concepts like making an inference, finding the author's purpose, or understanding vocabulary words in context.Here are a few techniques to help understand what, exactly, is a "main idea" and how to identify it accurately in a passage.How to Define the Main IdeaThe main idea of a paragraph is the primary point or concept that the author wants to communicate to the readers about the topic. Hence, in a paragraph, when the main idea is stated directly, it is expressed in what is called the topic sentence. It gives the overarching idea of what the paragraph is about and is supported by the details in subsequent sentences in the paragraph. In a multi-paragraph article, the main idea is expressed in the thesis statement, which is then supported by individual smaller points.Think of the main idea as a brief but all-encompassing summary. It covers everything the paragraph talks about in a general way, but does not include the specifics. Those details will come in later sentences or paragraphs and add nuance and context; the main idea will need those details to support its argument.=For example, imagine a paper discussing the causes of World War I. One paragraph might be dedicated to the role that imperialism played in the conflict. The main idea of this paragraph might be something like: "Constant competition for massive empires led to increasing tensions in Europe that eventually erupted into World War I." The rest of the paragraph might explore what those specific tensions were, who was involved, and why the countries were seeking empires, but the main idea just introduces the overarching argument of the section.When an author does not state the main idea directly, it should still be implied, and is called an implied main idea. This requires that the reader look closely at the content—at specific words, sentences, images that are used and repeated—to deduce what the author is communicating.How to Find the Main IdeaFinding the main idea is critical to understanding what you are reading. It helps the details make sense and have relevance, and provides a framework for remembering the content. Try these specific tips to pinpoint the main idea of a passage.1) Identify the TopicRead the passage through completely, then try to identify the topic. Who or what is the paragraph about? This part is just figuring out a topic like "cause of World War I" or "new hearing devices;" don't worry yet about deciding what argument the passage is making about this topic.2) Summarize the PassageAfter reading the passage thoroughly, summarize it in your own words in one sentence. Pretend you have just ten to twelve words to tell someone what the passage is about—what would you say?3) Look at the First and Last Sentences of the PassageAuthors often put the main idea in or near either the first or last sentence of the paragraph or article, so isolate those sentences to see if they make sense as the overarching theme of the passage. Be careful: sometimes the author will use words like but, however, in contrast, nevertheless, etc. that indicate that the second sentence is actually the main idea. If you see one of these words that negate or qualify the first sentence, that is a clue that the second sentence is the main idea.4) Look for Repetition of IdeasIf you read through a paragraph and you have no idea how to summarize it because there is so much information, start looking for repeated words, phrases, or related ideas. Read this example paragraph:A new hearing device uses a magnet to hold the detachable sound-processing portion in place. Like other aids, it converts sound into vibrations, but it is unique in that it can transmit the vibrations directly to the magnet and then to the inner ear. This produces a clearer sound. The new device will not help all hearing-impaired people—only those with a hearing loss caused by infection or some other problem in the middle ear. It will probably help no more than 20 percent of all people with hearing problems. Those people who have persistent ear infections, however, should find relief and restored hearing with the new device.What does this paragraph consistently talk about? A new hearing device. What is it trying to convey? A new hearing device is now available for some, but not all, hearing-impaired people. That's the main idea!Avoid Main Idea MistakesChoosing a main idea from a set of answer choices is different than composing a main idea on your own. Writers of multiple choice tests are often tricky and will give you distractor questions that sound much like the real answer. By reading the passage thoroughly, using your skills, and identifying the main idea on your own, though, you can avoid making these 3 common mistakes: selecting an answer that is too narrow in scope; selecting an answer that is too broad; or selecting an answer that is complex but contrary to the main idea. 

 

[Geof Nanto]

  ...                                                            

Edited August 18, 2023 by Geof Nanto

[galen_burnett]

@zerostao censorship… the repression of free speech and expression. yes, we need more of that..

 

’volleys’ lmao, yes, volleys of projectile-diarrhoea 

[galen_burnett]

@Mark Foote sorry dude but i can’t take you seriously when you’re so vague like that. you just keep evading my questions either with long tangental quotes or otherwise. thanks for that honest line about your teenage years, that’s probably the most i’ll get from you on this. peace.

[galen_burnett]

@Pak_Satrio where does the logic stop being coherent and start being stupid then? because in order to have a verbal concept of ‘enlightenment’ you need logic in the first place, you need logic to construct ideas no matter how fallacious those ideas may be—and you clearly have formed such a construct, and therefore used logic to your advantage at least to a certain degree, due to your mention of ‘enlightenment’. all i’ve done is examine and follow that logic through to a sensible conclusion. it’s very primitive and infantile of you to just call me stupid without offering a single coherent criticism of my argument, and that says a lot about your character. and on top of that you’ve chosen the brand of an enormously greedy and morally-corrupt corporation to express yourself through…

 

”we like logic, but only when it suits us, thanks”

 

also “get some cultivation done so you can actually experience enlightenment”; thanks for verifying my allegations earlier in the thread that people had been trying to deny the notion of ‘enlightenment’ being the goal in order to sabotage the argument—as if they ever needed verifying. 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by galen_burnett

[galen_burnett]

@Nungali cool man. good job in amplifying how foolish you all look.

[galen_burnett]

@thelerner thanks for the honesty at least, it’s appreciated. well you’ve stated your views and no amount of reasoning from me is going to persuade you otherwise, i’ve already plastered it all over this thread. my only questions left for you would be ‘why do you believe in it?’, ‘what about life makes it seem possible to you?’, ‘who has persuaded you through their personality or words or otherwise that it is real?’, but i’ve already written out those questions in the OP and probably elsewhere as well, and you won’t answer them, like everyone else here, so this is getting annoying and beginning to feel like talking to a brick wall.

 

whatever, i can guess the answers to those questions on my own of course with a lot of confidence; doesn’t matter.

 

good to know you do cold-water stuff anyway, i’ll get back into that too one day. also, yes the body improving in its health and efficiency can be seen as a physical enlightenment, but again, there’s no ‘end’ to this imo

Edited August 18, 2023 by galen_burnett

[Ajay0]

On 8/12/2023 at 2:05 PM, galen_burnett said:

 

The notion of attainment of ‘perpetual-bliss’ is common throughout Eastern spiritual-practices and philosophy: it can be found in yoga, in Buddhist philosophy, and in Daoism (the attainment of Dao), going by various names (I’ve cited some of them in the tags of this post). It is the notion that, with diligence etc. , a person can transcend the plane of Duality and merge with the Non-Dual, whereat awaits perfect bliss and harmony for them, which they may abide in forever after. 

 

If we accept the argument that joy and pain are essentially dualistic opposites, then how can we sever them, throw out one, keep the other and then escape into Non-Duality with it? How can we smuggle a dualistic entity—i.e. joy—into the realm of Non-Duality? Wouldn’t Non-Duality be devoid of all experience whatsoever—blanker than blank—as all experiences in existence, including all forms of joy and pain, belong to Duality? even ‘experience’ itself can be thought of as being a dualistic opposite to ‘non-experience’ (though non-experience is impossible to comprehend).

 

 

Happiness has an opposite in unhappiness, but bliss has no opposite.  It is beyond the pair of opposites. I think you have confused inner bliss and joy with happiness derived from external sources.

 

For happiness or pleasure, one has to depend on pleasant sensory experiences . But this has to be necessarily followed by unhappiness due to the duality that governs all material existence or conditioned phenomena.

 

All objective pleasures will result in pain and misery in the long run due to the factors of saturation or impermanence. 

 

So obviously depending on such fickle and superficial sources of happiness would not be a worthwhile investment of our time, energy and resources. 

 

The bliss within ourselves arising from the Self or Buddha nature is considered superior and everlasting , and is independent of external situations and circumstances unlike sensory experiences .

 

The one who is anchored in the bliss and peace of the Self or Buddha nature within will also be in a position to enjoy worldly pleasures without being inordinately attached to them, and will not suffer psychologically upon their inevitable loss in time.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Ajay0

[zerostao]

4 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

@zerostao censorship… the repression of free speech and expression. yes, we need more of that..

 

’volleys’ lmao, yes, volleys of projectile-diarrhoea 

 
I don’t consider refraining from personal insults as censorship.  Express whatever ideas you like, short of insults. And, I asked if you’d edit, I didn’t take it upon myself to hide your post.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

5 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

@Pak_Satrio where does the logic stop being coherent and start being stupid then? because in order to have a verbal concept of ‘enlightenment’ you need logic in the first place, you need logic to construct ideas no matter how fallacious those ideas may be—and you clearly have formed such a construct, and therefore used logic to your advantage at least to a certain degree, due to your mention of ‘enlightenment’. all i’ve done is examine and follow that logic through to a sensible conclusion. it’s very primitive and infantile of you to just call me stupid without offering a single coherent criticism of my argument, and that says a lot about your character. and on top of that you’ve chosen the brand of an enormously greedy and morally-corrupt corporation to express yourself through…

 

”we like logic, but only when it suits us, thanks”

 

also “get some cultivation done so you can actually experience enlightenment”; thanks for verifying my allegations earlier in the thread that people had been trying to deny the notion of ‘enlightenment’ being the goal in order to sabotage the argument—as if they ever needed verifying. 

 

 

Just to be clear, I'm not a professional 'quote maker'. I'm just an atheist teenager who greatly values his intelligence and scientific fact over any silly fiction book written 3,500 years ago. This being said, I am open to any and all criticism.

'In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.

[galen_burnett]

@Ajay0 i swear if one more NPC comes along with the n’th reiteration of this dead-end Semantic Discord i’m going to [insert inappropriate action]. do you realise you’re the 1,567th commenter to say that here? 

 

“So obviously depending on such fickle and superficial sources of happiness would not be a worthwhile investment of our time, energy and resources.” lol if you think investing in the attainment of this ‘bliss’ of yours will be worth all your ‘time, energy, and resources’ i’m afraid there’s a bit of a rude awakening waiting for you someway—waaaaaaaay way—down the line…

 

[it’s starting to sound like an echo-chamber in here… no, no that can’t be right, surely; these are bright people, awakened people, graceful people, people who think for themselves…]

Edited August 18, 2023 by galen_burnett

[galen_burnett]

@Pak_Satrio i didn’t know you were that young; your comment would have upset me if you were older like the rest of the people here, or else were some seething edge-lord teen doomed to degeneracy, but you seem alright then honestly. i was besotted with these philosophies at your age as well, so i can’t fault you. i have to tell you that you’re deluded believing in Nirvana, but it probably doesn’t matter so much at your age, you’re still figuring things out a lot and that’s a great part of the adventure of being that age, and having a belief in anything at that time in life can probably only do more good than harm. it just becomes a problem if you journey into adulthood with institutional delusions like that as then the tendency is to become bigoted and closed-minded and zombified which turns one into another brick in the wall perpetuating the status quo. there’s still plenty of time, and it could well be an open mind of yours that absorbed these philosophies into yourself, in which case i hope for your mind to remain open and brave and free. peace.

 

[of course you could be an old p**** in reality leading me on in which case that is annoying and i will delete this comment if i ever find that out]

Edited August 18, 2023 by galen_burnett

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

8 minutes ago, galen_burnett said:

@Pak_Satrio i didn’t know you were that young; your comment would have upset me if you were older like the rest of the people here, or else were some seething edge-lord teen doomed to degeneracy, but you seem alright then honestly. i was besotted with these philosophies at your age as well, so i can’t fault you. i have to tell you that you’re deluded believing in Nirvana, but it probably doesn’t matter so much at your age, you’re still figuring things out a lot and that’s a great part of the adventure of being that age, and having a belief in anything at that time in life can probably only do more good than harm. it just becomes a problem if you journey into adulthood with institutional delusions like that as then the tendency is to become bigoted and closed-minded and zombified which turns one into another brick in the wall perpetuating the status quo. there’s still plenty of time, and it could well be an open mind of yours that absorbed these philosophies into yourself, in which case i hope for your mind to remain open and brave and free. peace.

 

[of course you could be an old p**** in reality leading me on in which case that is annoying and i will delete this comment if i ever find that out]

I don’t understand why I’m deluded for believing in Nirvana? They are my favourite band. I hope to see them live before they retire. 

[galen_burnett]

@Pak_Satrio LOOK just neeeeeveeermiiiiiiiiiind

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 minute ago, galen_burnett said:

@Pak_Satrio LOOK just neeeeeveeermiiiiiiiiiind

That’s my favourite album too!!!

 

 

[galen_burnett]

@Pak_Satrio not many people know this but that’s actually me in the cover-art. got stunted growth unfortunately, but c’est la vie

[liminal_luke]

Does nirvanna exist?  If so, what's it like?  At this point in my life, my approach is not to worry about such questions.  Should I be suddenly transported to a realm of everlasting bliss, believe me, it will come as a complete surprise.  I'm far enough from the Mount Everest of spiritual achievement that it doesn't make much sense to speculate.  Let me get to the basecamp first, then I'll get back to ya.  Of one thing I'm certain: human potential is vast and there are people experiencing things I can't fathom.  Some are probably members of this forum.  Therefore, I like to keep an open mind.

Edited August 18, 2023 by liminal_luke

[whocoulditbe?]

Does extinction exist? Is absence an object? Does a candle generate darkness after its flame has been extinguished?

[thelerner]

18 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

@thelerner thanks for the honesty at least, it’s appreciated. well you’ve stated your views and no amount of reasoning from me is going to persuade you otherwise, i’ve already plastered it all over this thread. my only questions left for you would be ‘why do you believe in it?’, ‘what about life makes it seem possible to you?’, ‘who has persuaded you through their personality or words or otherwise that it is real?’, but i’ve already written out those questions in the OP and probably elsewhere as well, and you won’t answer them, like everyone else here, so this is getting annoying and beginning to feel like talking to a brick wall.

 

whatever, i can guess the answers to those questions on my own of course with a lot of confidence; doesn’t matter.

 

good to know you do cold-water stuff anyway, i’ll get back into that too one day. also, yes the body improving in its health and efficiency can be seen as a physical enlightenment, but again, there’s no ‘end’ to this imo

Please consider me a brick wall and I'll consider you at a different point in life and philosophy than I.  

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by thelerner

[Mark Foote]

On 8/16/2023 at 9:32 PM, galen_burnett said:

 

It’s kinda difficult to work out what you’re trying to say here. I guess you’re talking about how practice leads to ‘non-practice’; how with enough time a practice is subsumed into our body and psyche, into our autonomic-nervous-system, such that we no longer even need to think about it and the practice and the benefits of the practice all happen automatically? like how with enough time spent belly-breathing eventually the body will belly-breath on its own. 

 

I'll try again.

No, not "subsumed into our body and psyche, into our autonomic-nervous-system, such that we no longer even need to think about it and the practice and the benefits of the practice all happen automatically?"

The pieces are going to fall together in a different pattern every day, maybe every time you sit down and allow that to happen.

 

When the pieces fall together, it's just the way it was before, the movement of breath takes place autonomically.  The difference is, that the activity of the body coordinates from the placement of consciousness, and that placement can move.  

Yes, that's the way it is normally, but here there's awareness of the body, awareness of the placement of consciousness, but no doing in the body on the part of the mind.  Just sit and be with awareness.

It's not the repetition that makes it work.  There's a sense of freedom, a sense of well-being, and those feelings become a draw just like other things that provide a sense of freedom and well-being (like the merry-go-round and the wall-of-death at the county fair--you know!).

 

Belly-breathing is a good example.  The Daoists say that the Buddhists belly-breath one way, and Daoists another.  Skip that.  The placement of awareness, of attention, can effect the activity of breath.  Does that placement fall to the center of gravity, when the eyes are less of an influence on the location of awareness?  Often, in my experience.  Does that change the nature of the breath, in some respects?--yes.  

There's a relationship between relaxation and the stretch of ligaments, that can come down to particulars.  There's the oddity of the one place in the body where muscles push instead of pull (behind the sacrum, the mass of the extensors in contraction push rearward against the thoracolumbar fascia).  There's the strange science of how pressure can be sustained by the abdominals in the "fluid ball" of the abdomen without impinging on the motion of the diaphragm, and that pressure in the "fluid ball" can displace the thoracolumbar fascia behind the lower spine by a millimeter or so and thereby provide support to the lower spine.

 

These things have their moments, in "laying hold of one-pointedness"--in the tendency of that one-pointedness, in spite of a freedom of movement, to remain in the lower abdomen.  The generation of the activity in breath is effortless with one-pointedness, and the amount of practice is immaterial without it.
 

 

Quote

 

the only thing i can think of to say further on that, without knowing more clearly how you’re trying to link all this together, is about how practices are just tools for us to get from A to B and can be discarded once arrived at B. but beyond B there is no such place where no more practice in needed: beyond B there will be new situations to contend with that require new practices, and so the cycle repeats.
 

 

 

I agree.  The trick is the experience that koun Franz described as "the mind moving away from the head", which as he said cannot be done willfully.

My own description is very pedestrian, but I have at least four people who have found my instructions helpful in falling asleep, particularly after awakening in the middle of the night:

 

 

I have a practice that I’d like to offer, something that I believe is already part of the general repertoire of this community, even though the details I will provide here are new.

 

The practice I have in mind is a practice that everybody is already familiar with, even if they don’t think of it as a practice. What I’m referring to is waking up in the morning, or falling asleep at night; if you’ve ever had a hard time waking up or falling asleep, then you know that there can indeed be a practice! In my experience, the practice is the same, whether I am waking up or falling asleep: when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate.

 

This practice is useful, when I wake up in the middle of the night and need to go back to sleep, or when I want to feel more physically alive in the morning. This practice is also useful when I want to feel my connection to everything around me, because my sense of place registers the contact of my awareness with each thing, as contact occurs.

 

Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move.

 

I sometimes overlook my location in space because I attach to what I’m feeling, or I’m averse to it, or I ignore it. The result is that I lose the freedom of my awareness to shift and move, and I have difficulty relaxing or staying alert. When I allow what I feel to enter into where I am, then my awareness remains free, and I can relax and keep my wits about me.

 

(Waking Up and Falling Asleep)

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Mark Foote

[liminal_luke]

32 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Please, please consider me a brick wall and I'll consider you condescending and unreadable. 

 

In case you'd like to join us, Luke's Hideaway is having a pina colada special (buy 3, get one free) to everyone whose been insulted by GB in the last week.  I'm expecting quite the crowd.

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

@Nungali cool man. good job in amplifying how foolish you all look.

 

Oh ... thank you !

 

As long as you realize you where a target too .   

[thelerner]

43 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

In case you'd like to join us, Luke's Hideaway is having a pina colada special (buy 3, get one free) to everyone whose been insulted by GB in the last week.  I'm expecting quite the crowd.

Are there dollar bills pasted on the wall?